I thing Carryfast may be a woman:shock: He takes one statement and uses it out of context to base an entire argument:shock:
The workers that he defends were, whether he likes it or not, responsible for the ■■■■ poor quality of Leyland Group products, the workers were responsible for going on strike, quite often for the most ridiculous reasons. It was an employee, therefore a worker, that made every single bad decision in the design office and engineering departments, they all got paid, they all were employees, or workers:shock:
newmercman:
I thing Carryfast may be a woman:shock: He takes one statement and uses it out of context to base an entire argument:shock:
The workers that he defends were, whether he likes it or not, responsible for the ■■■■ poor quality of Leyland Group products, the workers were responsible for going on strike, quite often for the most ridiculous reasons. It was an employee, therefore a worker, that made every single bad decision in the design office and engineering departments, they all got paid, they all were employees, or workers:shock:
I think you must have missed all those previous posts where I’ve said that no decent engineer would want to turn out something like the ERGO when they know that what’s needed to compete with something like a Merc LP etc would be something at the very least along the lines of the 3 VTG.The records seem to confirm that in the case of at least Dr Fogg with the documented reports of him having walked away from the job for that reason and you can bet that all those below him at shop floor level would have been in agreement with that.All of which was the fault of those who were in charge of Leyland Group’s managers and in control of what those managers were allowed to produce,those being mostly the bankers who were in control of the finances in terms of investment.Which ultimately governs every aspect of how good a product will be.Ironically it’s you and others who seem to think that the thing was a competitive product and all it’s flaws were the fault of militant workers on the shop floor.
As I’ve also said,considering the poor value for money of German made products v their British competition,it’s reasonable to assume that a lot of the reason for that was the better wages paid to German workers v their British counterparts and the need to make a reasonable return for the bankers on the large amounts of investment being ploughed into German industry.All of course being part of the Allies policy in making sure that the Germans chose ‘democracy’ as an ally of the West rather than ( in the minds of the paranoid yanks at the time ) turn to the Communist East.I think that issue alone explains most,if not all,of the state of industrial relations in post war Britain as opposed to post war Germany and the difference to date between the British economy v that of Germany’s.
While to add insult to the injury of all that somehow a German designer,who seemed to have a history of working for a no better than average wartime Bavarian automotive and aero engine manufacturer,seems to have managed to convince the British bankers that putting the 500 engine in the planned ERGO and the L60 in the Chieftain tank would be a good idea.He was obviouly correct it’s just that he meant it would be a good idea for Leyland’s European/Geman competition not the Brits.
newmercman:
I thing Carryfast may be a woman:shock: He takes one statement and uses it out of context to base an entire argument:shock:
The workers that he defends were, whether he likes it or not, responsible for the ■■■■ poor quality of Leyland Group products, the workers were responsible for going on strike, quite often for the most ridiculous reasons. It was an employee, therefore a worker, that made every single bad decision in the design office and engineering departments, they all got paid, they all were employees, or workers:shock:
What you are saying is that he would start an argument in an empty house, which is what the manufacturing industry in this country is comparable to.
Cheers Dave.
newmercman:
I thing Carryfast may be a woman:shock: He takes one statement and uses it out of context to base an entire argument:shock:
The workers that he defends were, whether he likes it or not, responsible for the ■■■■ poor quality of Leyland Group products, the workers were responsible for going on strike, quite often for the most ridiculous reasons. It was an employee, therefore a worker, that made every single bad decision in the design office and engineering departments, they all got paid, they all were employees, or workers:shock:
What you are saying is that he would start an argument in an empty house, which is what the manufacturing industry in this country is comparable to.
Cheers Dave.
newmercman:
I thing Carryfast may be a woman:shock: He takes one statement and uses it out of context to base an entire argument:shock:
The workers that he defends were, whether he likes it or not, responsible for the ■■■■ poor quality of Leyland Group products, the workers were responsible for going on strike, quite often for the most ridiculous reasons. It was an employee, therefore a worker, that made every single bad decision in the design office and engineering departments, they all got paid, they all were employees, or workers:shock:
I read an article some years back, comparing education standards between Britain and some far-eastern country. Indonesia or Tibet, or Bangladesh even. The foreign kids were far better-behaved, obedient and, as a result, grew up more intelligent than the British ones. The same sloppy attitudes that see GB’s youth shirk its education are there for all to see in the workplace. The general attitude seems to be that the man is always better than the job or the tools, and that he deserves a better wage, whatever his wage. That is the predominant characteristic of the British working class- they have a false sense of entitlement, ingrained from childhood and passed from one generation to the next. This arrogance is what informed the vandalism of BL, British Coal and the rest in the 1970s. It was easy for a bunch of do-it-yourself fascists like Robinson, Scargill et al to get their 15 minutes of fame, leading such a deluded mob. Show them socialism, and they tear it to bits, to see what they can screw out of it.
The result is what we have today- our country gets its stuff made by a superior workforce, abroad, and imports labour when necessary. Imagine the state of the place, if we had not enjoyed such welcome immigration in the years following the War.
newmercman:
I thing Carryfast may be a woman:shock: He takes one statement and uses it out of context to base an entire argument:shock:
The workers that he defends were, whether he likes it or not, responsible for the ■■■■ poor quality of Leyland Group products, the workers were responsible for going on strike, quite often for the most ridiculous reasons. It was an employee, therefore a worker, that made every single bad decision in the design office and engineering departments, they all got paid, they all were employees, or workers:shock:
I read an article some years back, comparing education standards between Britain and some far-eastern country. Indonesia or Tibet, or Bangladesh even. The foreign kids were far better-behaved, obedient and, as a result, grew up more intelligent than the British ones. The same sloppy attitudes that see GB’s youth shirk its education are there for all to see in the workplace. The general attitude seems to be that the man is always better than the job or the tools, and that he deserves a better wage, whatever his wage. That is the predominant characteristic of the British working class- they have a false sense of entitlement, ingrained from childhood and passed from one generation to the next. This arrogance is what informed the vandalism of BL, British Coal and the rest in the 1970s. It was easy for a bunch of do-it-yourself fascists like Robinson, Scargill et al to get their 15 minutes of fame, leading such a deluded mob. Show them socialism, and they tear it to bits, to see what they can screw out of it.
The result is what we have today- our country gets its stuff made by a superior workforce, abroad, and imports labour when necessary. Imagine the state of the place, if we had not enjoyed such welcome immigration in the years following the War.
Sounds to me like a typical raving Thatcherite view and support for the global free market economy at the expense of your own country’s workforce.As one of those so called ‘badly behaved’ rebellious trade union supporters my answer to that is if you think that Bangladesh is such a great place to live then zb off and live there.
The reality of your bs ideas are examples like this.The only ‘sense of entitlement’ issues which I see in your raving ideas are all on the side of the bankers and those who think that the often less productive job that they do makes them worth more than everyone else.
Although I’m betting that you’d have made sure that you wouldn’t have been one of those working at shop floor level for £1 a day when the place collapsed.
Carryfast:
The reality of your bs ideas are examples like this.The only ‘sense of entitlement’ issues which I see in your raving ideas are all on the side of the bankers and those who think that the often less productive job that they do makes them worth more than everyone else.
Hahaha. Before you start foaming at the mouth about bankers, have a look what GB’s service sector trade surplus is. The last time I looked, it was £7bn per month. Could that be at least partly due to the performance of our financial services sector, I wonder? The manufacturing sector lost £10bn in the same month- so much for your proud British worker. Never mind, we’re getting a load of Bulgarians and Romanians soon- they should make our factories more competitive. The only problem is what to do with all the talentless homegrown dossers. They will represent a bit of an overhead in the accounts of GB plc. The only solution I can suggest is use them as cannon fodder.
Carryfast:
The reality of your bs ideas are examples like this.The only ‘sense of entitlement’ issues which I see in your raving ideas are all on the side of the bankers and those who think that the often less productive job that they do makes them worth more than everyone else.
Hahaha. Before you start foaming at the mouth about bankers, have a look what GB’s service sector trade surplus is. The last time I looked, it was £7bn per month. Could that be at least partly due to the performance of our financial services sector, I wonder? The manufacturing sector lost £10bn in the same month- so much for your proud British worker. Never mind, we’re getting a load of Bulgarians and Romanians soon- they should make our factories more competitive. The only problem is what to do with all the talentless homegrown dossers. They will represent a bit of an overhead in the accounts of GB plc. The only solution I can suggest is use them as cannon fodder.
I think that’s already the case although having said that the bankers don’t even want to pay the going rate for squaddies now so they’re making them all redundant and then re advertising their jobs to make a cut price army for a cut price country.Then to add insult to injury the hypocrites who run the country like the bankers prefer to set up charities such as help for heroes to save themselves even more in tax to pay for decent care when those who are mug enough to join up to defend your type of country just get injured instead of killed.
As for the so called £7 bn in profits made by the ‘service sector’ just like all the bankers you seem to be under the illusion that you can create wealth by producing nothing and importing goods or labour to take advantage of cheaper labour rates.So the service sector has supposedly made £7 bn per month in profits.Great so there was actually no need for the tax payer to bail out the losses of the banking sector and they can pay the tax payer back all what’s owed and the country’s economy is actually in better shape now after 34 years of Thatcherite policies than it was in 1972.When those disobedient union members were supposedly,( according to those with your views ), running and ruining the country.
In the case of the assembly line workers, the sense of entitlement played a major part in their ultimate demise. They wanted a high standard of living, yet wanted the Government to step in and control imports (competition) so they could continue to throw together inferior products.
They didn’t care that this would force crap vehicles onto the buying public, they wanted this to happen so they could further strengthen their position and hold the country to ransom in their quest to get what they ‘deserved’
newmercman:
In the case of the assembly line workers, the sense of entitlement played a major part in their ultimate demise. They wanted a high standard of living, yet wanted the Government to step in and control imports (competition) so they could continue to throw together inferior products.
They didn’t care that this would force crap vehicles onto the buying public, they wanted this to happen so they could further strengthen their position and hold the country to ransom in their quest to get what they ‘deserved’
Thankfully the free market won…
I think it’s quite obvious that the ‘crap’ vehicles in question,like the industrial unrest amongst British workers,was all the result of British industry being starved of the cash needed to be able to make anything better,or pay it’s workforce properly for the job they were doing,by the bankers together with a documented policy of diverting cash into German industry to keep the German public as a whole happy in case they supposedly went running off to join the Russians.
Although,as I’ve said,I was lucky enough to be working for one of the exceptions that proved the rule at the time at least in terms of production and product development capital being available although no suprise still not enough to pay German type wages.
newmercman:
In the case of the assembly line workers, the sense of entitlement played a major part in their ultimate demise. They wanted a high standard of living, yet wanted the Government to step in and control imports (competition) so they could continue to throw together inferior products.
They didn’t care that this would force crap vehicles onto the buying public, they wanted this to happen so they could further strengthen their position and hold the country to ransom in their quest to get what they ‘deserved’
Thankfully the free market won…
I think it’s quite obvious that the ‘crap’ vehicles in question,like the industrial unrest amongst British workers,was all the result of British industry being starved of the cash needed to be able to make anything better,or pay it’s workforce properly for the job they were doing,by the bankers together with a documented policy of diverting cash into German industry to keep the German public as a whole happy in case they supposedly went running off to join the Russians.
Although,as I’ve said,I was lucky enough to be working for one of the exceptions that proved the rule at the time at least in terms of production and product development capital being available although no suprise still not enough to pay German type wages.
Is this company still in existence?
BMC and BL still had a decent size kitty in the 60s and early 70s but still couldnt keep up with ford and vauxhall as been a mass market vehicle maker building cars here. Before we here how great jaguar and triumph were they wasnt annd never will be mass market bread and butter cars which is what a vehicle manafacturer the size of BL had to dominate to survive.
IMHO after the mid '60’s there was no “good Leyland,Ergo,Marathon,Scammell or AEC” maybe Guy hung on as a reliable fleet motor as Leyland left them alone up to a point but otherwise the offerings from Leyland,unfortunately,were total crap ugh! So why you are all rising to “Geoffreys” verbage I am at a loss to understand Only my opinion,and most probably someone else will no doubt disagree but hell your still able to indulge in free speech on TNUK,(just!) Cheers Bewick.
Out of interest is that from the point of veiw as an operator or as a driver?
Just intrested as a lot of people who drove them seem to say they were a big leap forward but obviously if your paying the bills you often look at things diffrent.
kr79:
Out of interest is that from the point of veiw as an operator or as a driver?
Just intrested as a lot of people who drove them seem to say they were a big leap forward but obviously if your paying the bills you often look at things diffrent.
This is a shot of a long term demo we ran at Bewick Transport and believe me we had to almost force drivers onto it, " Ah no boss you aren’t thinking of running some of these Buffalos",Please ? The load of empty 45 gal drums is about the only sensible job for this motor and IIRC while I took this shot the driver had just jumped out and ran into the traffic office to beg not to have to drive this Leyland the next day I kid you not! Bewick.
kr79:
Is this company still in existence?
BMC and BL still had a decent size kitty in the 60s and early 70s but still couldnt keep up with ford and vauxhall as been a mass market vehicle maker building cars here. Before we here how great jaguar and triumph were they wasnt annd never will be mass market bread and butter cars which is what a vehicle manafacturer the size of BL had to dominate to survive.
The common link in all those cases being that our German competitors were able to beat us for the reasons I’ve given and that includes the German Ford and GM divisions which were eventually increasingly given the work of the uk Ford and GM divisions to the point where the British divisions were effectively wiped out by comparison.
While in the case of BL it was that idea of trying to dominate the volume sector with Austin Morris,instead of just concentrating it’s efforts on the JRT market sector,which was a contributor to it’s downfall.The fact is Leyland didn’t have the funds to compete in that sector and even if it did the figures show that it’s not a worthwhile sector to be involved in anyway.Hence Mercedes’ and BMW’s and Audi’s fortunes v Ford and GM’s fortunes to date.
While in the case of fire trucks even the indisputably superior British Chubb Fire products v their German opposition from FAUN and Rosenbauer weren’t enough to gaurantee the long term survival of their manufacturer.In typical British fashion Chubb Fire Vehicles division was eventually bought out by Gloster Saro in the mid 1980’s which then seems to have faded away some years later seemingly leaving the Austrian/German Rosenbauer to dominate the specialist big league emergency vehicle market.
]In keeping with that no the ERGO wasn’t a good cab at all.]
Dear Carryfast, you really are a twit!!!
When the Ergo was launched, (from your posts), I believe that you were a mere child…funny how that bewilderment has followed you into a more “mature” age!!
Bewick:
IMHO after the mid '60’s there was no “good Leyland,Ergo,Marathon,Scammell or AEC” maybe Guy hung on as a reliable fleet motor as Leyland left them alone up to a point but otherwise the offerings from Leyland,unfortunately,were total crap ugh! So why you are all rising to “Geoffreys” verbage I am at a loss to understand Only my opinion,and most probably someone else will no doubt disagree but hell your still able to indulge in free speech on TNUK,(just!) Cheers Bewick.
That’s what I’ve been saying and everyone has been trying to argue with me by trying to make the case that I’m talking bollox.In which case you’re talking the same ‘verbage’ as me considering that we seem to agree with each other,at least on the issue of the ERGO,not forgetting that the thing was only introduced to the market in the mid 1960’s so as I’ve said it was already obsolete when it was introduced.It’s just that many people are blaming it all on the workers. While I’m blaming it on the ‘bankers’ and politicians ( who were really in charge of Leyland ) by starving the place of cash to develop and produce decent products and pay it’s workers properly.
Saviem:
]In keeping with that no the ERGO wasn’t a good cab at all.]
Dear Carryfast, you really are a twit!!!
When the Ergo was launched, (from your posts), I believe that you were a mere child…funny how that bewilderment has followed you into a more “mature” age!!
Cheerio for now.
But I wasn’t a child when I started work in 1975 at which time the ERGO was still alive and kicking way past it’s sell by date at least in the form of the Marathon while even that Buffalo heap in Bewick’s photo is a 1974 going by the reg.When,as Bewick ( rightly ) says,that sell by date was around the time of it’s introduction. Then to add insult to injury I got lumbered with having to spend some nights out with one of the heaps in the 1980’s because a typically British guvnor wanted to save some money in not buying something better.
One of the main reasons behind Ford and GM switching production to European (German) plants was because they actually built cars in Germany rather than going on strike!
