Best '70s Middle-East unit

[carryfast]

robert1952:
As Carryfast pointed out, it might be as well to examine some of the more obscure models run down to the Gulf by Continental operators in those days - and I reckon that Saviem with the ‘Orient Express’ cab-pack might be a good place to start! Robert

I think my point was more along the lines of probably the opposite in that obscure and Iconic are arguably a contradiction.Although having said that ‘if’ we were to say that some might have been obscure ‘because’ they were under rated I’d agree with that.While like wise conversely some that were Iconic like the F88,like many of the 6 cylinder in house imports,were over rated which is why I’d put the V8 Scania as ‘Iconic’ just based on the combination of decent comfort for the driver and at least its proven un stressed engine output and durability at least until the F12 arrived on the scene.At which point Iconic then realistically means American based engine and driveline and best possible cab environment for the driver.In which case it’s between the well known Brits like Crusader,SA and ERF v the KW.With the Bedford TM well within the definition of obscure if at all ‘because’ it was under rated therefore not possible to be at the top of the list.

On that note I’d still go with V8 Scania and KW sharing 1st place with take your pick of the Brits sharing 2nd place with the NGC being in there.But can’t see any reason to put any of the Brits ahead of the KW.In which case my cover photo would be an Astran V8 Scania,Friderici KW,and take your pick of NGC or SA etc.

[v8lenny]

Scania 111, because it was easier to service, more reliable and more fuel efficient than 141, 6x2 tag axle with rear airsuspension, front parabolics, factory fitted airconditioning and nightheater.

[pip_dunn_t_amp_d]

Thanks for all this input, it’s fascinating to read and is great input…

Pip

[johnxl70]

4 motors we ran to the Middle East early 80’s, i drove the Marathon

[pip_dunn_t_amp_d]

JOHNXL70:
4 motors we ran to the Middle East early 80’s, i drove the Marathon

Great Pic John!

[johnxl70]

Pip Dunn T&D:

JOHNXL70:
4 motors we ran to the Middle East early 80’s, i drove the Marathon

Great Pic John!

Thanks Pip Dunn
Me parked with 2 French Marathons, at the Londra Camp Istanbul, on my way back from Kuwait City after tipping chocolate

[saviem]

Evening all,

Just an odd comment or two, bearing in mind that my experiences of haulage, “Moyen Orient”, is limited to working with mainly French operators, and having my fingers burned by those from the British Isles!

Our iconic Suisse friends Friderici were running to the middle east back in the 50s with their Henschells, having forsaken native Saurer because of delivery problems. The bulk of their sleepers were ex works Henschell, the Kenworths came in 76. Anyone who has driven Reyco spring suspended KWs will know of the inbuilt fragility!..now the 8 bag air set up is very strong…provided that you have a strong back, and an air seat!!! Having imported an awful lot of KWs I would certainly rather drive a vehicle with a 3 pointed star over the sort of terrain that our friends on these various threads talk about, rather than a KW100!

Bulgaria, and the comments about the “old” Eastern Bloc men. My experience, having dealt with, and met the people within the Polish, Hungarian, and Bulgarian operators in the late 70s and 80s would lead me to concur with opinions about their professionalism. These operations were well run, and shifted massive tonnages quietly. Many ran regular timed deliveries, and achieved them without problem. There is very little written about just what they achieved, and more is, (often totally inaccurate), word of mouth tales about their activities.

Texim, the national Bulgarian transporter of the 60s ran over 500 Berliet Relax cab Tr12, and TR250 12 litre, (250 hp @2200 rpm ), ZF 680, and GV80 12 speed splitter down to a Berliet triple reduction drive axle, on 3.8 m wb on middle east work. André Borel, from Valence, supported Paul Berliets efforts to sell the “new” 12 litre to the Bulgarian operator. Borel having perhaps one of the finest in house operational support facilities, (and at that time totally Berliet geared), of any French operator. Anyway, Texims experience mirrored the predictions, the vehicles were utterly reliable!

Now, VIT, (Valenton International Transports), were using fairly basic Saviem SM 300 V8 drawbar outfits with Burg swop bodies, when they were equipping “our” new factory in Iraq…1000 trips in 12 months…that is a reliable, (basic), lorry…

But my old friends at Stouff…400 plus Berliet GRs, (TR drawbars)…(.when the drivers did not crash, abandon, or just loose them)…well they were blooming reliable…

As were Chapuis from Lyon SM Saviems…and they got down to very sunny, Lagos!..but the TR Berliets just drove up and down to the “normal” Middle East countries…bit boring really…but after all via SAVAM…Chapuis became UK owned!

But then thee were the big DAFs of Transports Carry from Paris…(well, that was where the invoices were sent)!..100 plus, up and down…until the cash ran out…but that was not the fault of the reliable 3300 DAFs, or those rented Trailor Location Savoyards…

Perhaps the real enjoyment of any writings about this subject is about just what equipment was actually used, from the most unlikely, to the most exotic…perhaps a different slant, because there were some fairly basic, and very reliable bits of kit utilised…day cab Scania 76s, (I sold an ex Hayes Freight , Walsall, 76 to a pair of brothers from Rugeley…and it just went up, and down…then my friend the late John Ball, (Grahams dad), went up, and down, (and probably around quite a bit)!, in an ex Cy Grant, WM Wood LB 76as well!

In truth, there is not a "best " one…it was all down to the man in the driving seat…a good man can make anything work…its called skill…and I doff my cap to so many who did this work…skilled, oh yes sir!

Cheerio for now.

[gs_overland]

Nicely written
Monsieur Saviem…

[gingerfold]

Saviem:
Evening all,

In truth, there is not a "best " one…it was all down to the man in the driving seat…a good man can make anything work…its called skill…and I doff my cap to so many who did this work…skilled, oh yes sir!

Cheerio for now.

John, you have summed it up in the proverbial nutshell. Absolutely spot on. (You beat me to it, I was going to make exactly the same point)

[david_miller]

Thank the Lord that Saviem is here to provide the voice of experience and real knowledge.

Anyone who has driven Reyco spring suspended KWs will know of the inbuilt fragility!..

. That was the name I was struggling to remember - though one could never forget the ride quality!

Much has been said about Frederici and their use of the horrible KWs but remember that they were Swiss Distributors and, as such, were able to buy their vehicles at a very healthy discount. Don’t remember that they were too successful at selling them into other Swiss fleets. The one I drove was supplied by Dandos of Chipping Sodbury and was one of a batch that Dandos ordered to get the British Distributorship - minimal spec, GM 2 strokes on metal suspension. Mostly sold to bright eyed, bushy tailed owner drivers.

All that with a comfortable cab

That is the major problem. They most emphatically were NOT comfortable - cramped driving position, very small windows, flat glass mirrors giving a very limited view, massively over complicated dash display with a mass of small instruments offering such useful but unnecessary information such as the oil temperature in the rear diff, an engine box up to elbow height, but best of all the whole interior, even the roof lining and the mattress were upholstered in red PVC. You have never suffered until you have passed a hot, humid night on a PVC mattress. I have no doubt, though no real knowledge either, of the success of the marque in Australia but I understand that they were locally assembled and, as such, they will have been produced in the best spec to suit the local conditions.

No gentlemen, when I see fleets of them flying up and down the M1 in Stobart, Reed Bordall or Dentresangle (or whatever they are called these days) colours I will be impressed.

David

[carryfast]

David Miller:
Thank the Lord that Saviem is here to provide the voice of experience and real knowledge.

Anyone who has driven Reyco spring suspended KWs will know of the inbuilt fragility!..

. That was the name I was struggling to remember - though one could never forget the ride quality!

Much has been said about Frederici and their use of the horrible KWs but remember that they were Swiss Distributors and, as such, were able to buy their vehicles at a very healthy discount. Don’t remember that they were too successful at selling them into other Swiss fleets. The one I drove was supplied by Dandos of Chipping Sodbury and was one of a batch that Dandos ordered to get the British Distributorship - minimal spec, GM 2 strokes on metal suspension. Mostly sold to bright eyed, bushy tailed owner drivers.

All that with a comfortable cab

That is the major problem. They most emphatically were NOT comfortable - cramped driving position, very small windows, flat glass mirrors giving a very limited view, massively over complicated dash display with a mass of small instruments offering such useful but unnecessary information such as the oil temperature in the rear diff, an engine box up to elbow height, but best of all the whole interior, even the roof lining and the mattress were upholstered in red PVC. You have never suffered until you have passed a hot, humid night on a PVC mattress. I have no doubt, though no real knowledge either, of the success of the marque in Australia but I understand that they were locally assembled and, as such, they will have been produced in the best spec to suit the local conditions.

No gentlemen, when I see fleets of them flying up and down the M1 in Stobart, Reed Bordall or Dentresangle (or whatever they are called these days) colours I will be impressed.

David

So shocking evil things which only the Australians could make work regardless of the fact that until Saviem had informed here I for one had never even heard of a Reyco sprung KW.As opposed to Hendrickson or Rockwell on rubber or air most definitely and numerous examples which say otherwise.As for two strokers to be fair,if not 14 litre ■■■■■■■■■■ would need the 12v71 N to be a fair comparison with the V8 Scania on a like with like basis.At least until the 92 T series arrived which,not surprisingly the information suggests was actually Friderici’s preference.

Which leaves the question how do you explain the difference in your comments to those here.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83810&start=2520#p2142562

Or for that matter if the Australian ones were effectively totally different trucks.How do we still end up with something that is as happy on the,by no means always impeccable,road conditions of North America in temperatures varying from a Texas Summer to a Canadian winter.Or that’s still the wagon of choice of other European operators not just Friderici running to Central Asia well into the 1980’s.

toprun.ch/truck/dvd/images_v … ijns_1.jpg

[pete_smith]

Was this the Reyco set up?

[240_gardner]

ramone:
A different angle on this could be what lorry springs to mind when talking about middle east hauliers.My list would be the Transcon , the BRS Marathons and the Whittle Seddon Atkis , but what about those that did it in Atkis , Mandators , Big Js , Fodens etc , the Astran AEC has got to be a classic .The foreign invasion are obviously going to dominate this thread but what about the older British contingent ■■?

I agree! There is a dormant thread on here, about ancient Britons heading east, with quite a few photos. I’d love to see some more!

[david_miller]

Carryfast all you want, as usual, is a row and I regret that I have neither the time or the interest to oblige you so this is the last I shall say on the subject.

shocking evil things

Is not a term I have used nor would I. How on earth can a truck be evil?

Which leaves the question how do you explain the difference in your comments to those here.

I have searched the page that you give a shortcut to and cannot see that I made any comment at all so I cannot answer you.

still the wagon of choice of other European operators not just Friderici

Oh really. Like who for instance? From their own website Frederici would seem to have gone over to Iveco and Mercedes Benz.

No, you have your purely theoretical point of view and I have a practical one. I was never impressed with the American offerings, indeed when I was working for Altrex and was told that my Mercedes was going and that I would be driving a Mack I resigned promptly and went to work for Grangewood.

Magnificent looking? Certainly. More testosterone that a V4 1000cc Lambretta on L plates? By all means. But the best 70’s Middle East Unit? No Sir, they were not.

David.

[carryfast]

David Miller:
Carryfast all you want, as usual, is a row and I regret that I have neither the time or the interest to oblige you so this is the last I shall say on the subject.

shocking evil things

Is not a term I have used nor would I. How on earth can a truck be evil?

Which leaves the question how do you explain the difference in your comments to those here.

I have searched the page that you give a shortcut to and cannot see that I made any comment at all so I cannot answer you.

still the wagon of choice of other European operators not just Friderici

Oh really. Like who for instance? From their own website Frederici would seem to have gone over to Iveco and Mercedes Benz.

No, you have your purely theoretical point of view and I have a practical one. I was never impressed with the American offerings, indeed when I was working for Altrex and was told that my Mercedes was going and that I would be driving a Mack I resigned promptly and went to work for Grangewood.

Magnificent looking? Certainly. More testosterone that a V4 1000cc Lambretta on L plates? By all means. But the best 70’s Middle East Unit? No Sir, they were not.

David.

Shocking evil was mean’t in the form of sarcasm not literally.

The difference in the comments I was referring to was that between yours as opposed to John West’s which seems clear enough.

An obviously ‘other’ ( Dutch ) European example of an operator choosing KW to run to Central Asia v the obvious Merc alternative being clear enough in the link.

As for Mercs.My experience of the things being nothing special in the form of the 1628 at least to gutless uncomfortable heap in the form of the 2534.With as usual a heavy slow to use zb synchro box to the point where the strength of my left arm eventually beat the strength of its gear linkage. In which case being stranded in the desert without access to welding plant in that case at least would have been fun.

While I can assure you my view is purely objective in the KW providing the combination of more living space in its cab,probably more than any Euro alternative,and proven,in terms of durability,performance and drive quality,US engine and driveline as a matter of course.

On that note I think that there’s a previous reference to a Merc with a Fuller box conversion,in addition the fact that,at this point in time,it’s going to take the bleedin great big V10 option to get the required power output.Just as I’ve said ideally I’d have also wanted same in the case of the V8 Scania.At which point the idea of buying a KW instead seems like a good bet.

[ramone]

Carryfast:

David Miller:
Carryfast all you want, as usual, is a row and I regret that I have neither the time or the interest to oblige you so this is the last I shall say on the subject.

shocking evil things

Is not a term I have used nor would I. How on earth can a truck be evil?

Which leaves the question how do you explain the difference in your comments to those here.

I have searched the page that you give a shortcut to and cannot see that I made any comment at all so I cannot answer you.

still the wagon of choice of other European operators not just Friderici

Oh really. Like who for instance? From their own website Frederici would seem to have gone over to Iveco and Mercedes Benz.

No, you have your purely theoretical point of view and I have a practical one. I was never impressed with the American offerings, indeed when I was working for Altrex and was told that my Mercedes was going and that I would be driving a Mack I resigned promptly and went to work for Grangewood.

Magnificent looking? Certainly. More testosterone that a V4 1000cc Lambretta on L plates? By all means. But the best 70’s Middle East Unit? No Sir, they were not.

David.

Shocking evil was mean’t in the form of sarcasm not literally.

The difference in the comments I was referring to was that between yours as opposed to John West’s which seems clear enough.

An obviously ‘other’ ( Dutch ) European example of an operator choosing KW to run to Central Asia v the obvious Merc alternative being clear enough in the link.

As for Mercs.My experience of the things being nothing special in the form of the 1628 at least to gutless uncomfortable heap in the form of the 2534.With as usual a heavy slow to use zb synchro box to the point where the strength of my left arm eventually beat the strength of its gear linkage. In which case being stranded in the desert without access to welding plant in that case at least would have been fun.

While I can assure you my view is purely objective in the KW providing the combination of more living space in its cab,probably more than any Euro alternative,and proven,in terms of durability,performance and drive quality,US engine and driveline as a matter of course.

On that note I think that there’s a previous reference to a Merc with a Fuller box conversion,in addition the fact that,at this point in time,it’s going to take the bleedin great big V10 option to get the required power output.Just as I’ve said ideally I’d have also wanted same in the case of the V8 Scania.At which point the idea of buying a KW instead seems like a good bet.

How many KWs have you driven ? i for one havent driven any American lorries so i wont knock them but on the same hand i wont disagree with people on here who have . If they found them uncomfortable and cramped , and ive heard this as a common complaint then just maybe they were , youve got to remember they werent doing a night trunk up the M1 they were out for weeks on end living in them . As for the heavy synchro , they brought out the EPS especially for you forward and backwards with 1 finger and a tap to the side for neutral

[carryfast]

ramone:
How many KWs have you driven ? i for one havent driven any American lorries so i wont knock them but on the same hand i wont disagree with people on here who have . If they found them uncomfortable and cramped , and ive heard this as a common complaint then just maybe they were , youve got to remember they werent doing a night trunk up the M1 they were out for weeks on end living in them . As for the heavy synchro , they brought out the EPS especially for you forward and backwards with 1 finger and a tap to the side for neutral

As I said we’ve obviously got two totally opposing views by people who have driven them,one of them relying on the admission that the example they drove was poverty spec and other comments seemingly based on some weird obscure cheap and nasty suspension option.In addition to numerous examples of European operators using them for trans Euro-Asia work when they could have chosen any number of easier to obtain European alternatives.

As for the EPS Merc I preferred to fight with the manual thanks,luckily only trying the EPS during an assessment for an international work job move which I didn’t get but which looking back might have been a lucky escape. While we’ve got at least one reference to someone ( rightly ) preferring to convert the thing to a Fuller box.

[bewick]

What’s happened to all your Bollox about the DD “CF”, you change your ■■■■■■■ allegiance as often as you might change your underwear, then again I might be suggesting, quite wrongly, that you have cleaner personal hygiene habits in Leatherhead compared to the rest of England , which I doubt vey much ! Cheers Bewick.

[carryfast]

Bewick:
What’s happened to all your Bollox about the DD “CF”, you change your [zb] allegiance as often as you might change your underwear, then again I might be suggesting, quite wrongly, that you have cleaner personal hygiene habits in Leatherhead compared to the rest of England , which I doubt vey much ! Cheers Bewick.

The topic is more an issue of objective comparison than ‘allegiance’.In which case either the 140/141, or the KW,at least in Friderici type spec ( the word is DD 92T in this case ? ) or ■■■■■■■ are going to take some beating at this point in time.

[saviem]

Evening all,

Oh dear, here we go again, yet another potentially great thread getting drowned under the wishfull ■■■■■■■ of one contributor, hell bent on “fantasy trucking inc”.

Just to clarify a couple of points, then hopefully the fantasy rise of Mr Paccars KW in terms of Middle East operation can be laid to rest.

Reyco was never a “weird, obscure suspension”, in many cases it was the suspension of choice for US Fleet operators. Cheap to maintain, a good over the road spring set up, normally utilised with Rockwell, or Eaton SQHD axle sets, and rear Trilex wheels. The front would have disc steel running 24in rubber. The ride quality lacked a certain refinement, the axle articulation was limited, but it was a fleet spec, for highway use.

The reason so many UK reg KWs had this specification was simply that ex US Dealers, Reyco, 211, 220, & 290 ■■■■■■■■ 9 speed Fuller, Trilex, and front disc, with either a "coffin cab, or short sleeper was so cheap to buy…but sold easily in the UK where the specification was unknown. The sellers margin was potentially very large!

I imported over 100 KWs, K100s W 900s, ■■■■■■■ 14 litre in the main, a few big girls, with KTAs, (ex Montana Bull Haulers), all were Fuller, 9, 13, or 15 speed, (double Overdrive, or single, ), some with 6 speed Spicers behind them, but all except two I bought with 8 bag air on the back end, and the majority with 22in rubber, rather than 24 in. Cabs were coffin, Aerodyne, 90-120 in, and as David so vividly rekindles my memory, "Blood Red Naugahyde, rolled and buttoned interior…ye gods, if the A/C stopped working, it must have been a sado masochists dream come true in there!!!

The vast majority I sold out to Circus operators in France and Italy, some O/ds in the UK, and a fair few to French used lorry dealers and small hauliers,…My records simply do not show any being used Moyen Orient!

Forget our Suisse friends Frederici, there were many reasons for them using Paccar products, not just the easily imagined ones. David has touched upon one, Frederici is a very interesting company that I happen to know reasonably well, this is not the thread to discuss them, but I would be happy to outline their background elsewhere, right back from the 1800s!

Lets get back to the thread, and as Gardner 240 says, lets hear more about the British lorries that just went up and down, I for one would love to hear more about JOHNXL70s experiences with the dear old Marathon, and those TMs, (surely a potentially great lorry, that its creators simply did not know how to realise its potential)!

And finally, if there ever was a US lorry that made the grade on this work, then it has to be the totally unglamorous Mack F 785/786, basic, simple, bit bumpy to drive, but very solid indeed…did you know that those built in Iran, were built on the assembly line that Mack had in France, then when they had “killed” Bernard, they shipped the lot to Iran, and a new market place!

Forgive me for going on a bit, but this thread has great potential, too good to be sidetracked…

Yes Pete, those are the devilish little Reyco combination springs…I can feel the bumps now!

Cheerio for now…my Bollinger is calling me.