I think Rogers F12 is up there to.I think its from the late 70is
Danne
Robert you are going to need to apply some rules here. On the basis of what criteria are you to decide what was ‘Best’? I would say that the first rule should be ‘did you drive one on the middle east and if not you have nothing to say’. But still what does ‘best’ mean? Most flashy? Most reiable? Most comfortable?
For example, whoever put 6 wheel Kenworth never drove one on the job. Apart from being very uncomfortable their standard metal suspension was not up to the wonderful roads that we had to drive on. Fine on the Interstate no doubt but a bit out of class on the Autoput. It was notable that all the Frederici units were on air suspension. They knew what they were doing.
Also we need to get things right. The Bugarian State Transport ‘Sofimat’ had no Mercedes units in the early 70s. They ran a fleet of mostly Volvo F88s on trilex wheels and a ragged mob of East European machines like Tatra and Liaz which went East but were not sent West. Also a fleet whose drivers were all trained mechanics hardly counts in the reliability stakes.
I drove 4 makes during my 12 years on the job. Both the F89 and the F12 suffered breakdown that needed trained mechanics to repair them, a diff on the 89 and a fuel pump on the 12.
However 2 were completely trouble free over thousands of miles - the Mercedes 1926 and the Scammel Cruisader. The Merc was a gutless pig that required meticulous planning before any attempt at overtaking but it got therevand got back every time, as did the Cruisader. But the Cruisader with its Rolls engine and 13 speed Fuller was a much better drive and the factory sleeper was very comfortable.
So what in the World is the conclusion to that one?
David
To me, “Best” means reliable truck that did not breakdown. However under-powered, uncomfortable, uneconomical or aged; if I got back without delays caused by the truck, then it was a good trip. I had enough delays muddling through the borders and recovering from silly mistakes; having a trouble-free mechanical vehicle was a must.
David Miller:
Robert you are going to need to apply some rules here. On the basis of what criteria are you to decide what was ‘Best’? I would say that the first rule should be ‘did you drive one on the middle east and if not you have nothing to say’. But still what does ‘best’ mean? Most flashy? Most reiable? Most comfortable?For example, whoever put 6 wheel Kenworth never drove one on the job. Apart from being very uncomfortable their standard metal suspension was not up to the wonderful roads that we had to drive on. Fine on the Interstate no doubt but a bit out of class on the Autoput. It was notable that all the Frederici units were on air suspension. They knew what they were doing.
Also we need to get things right. The Bugarian State Transport ‘Sofimat’ had no Mercedes units in the early 70s. They ran a fleet of mostly Volvo F88s on trilex wheels and a ragged mob of East European machines like Tatra and Liaz which went East but were not sent West. Also a fleet whose drivers were all trained mechanics hardly counts in the reliability stakes.
I drove 4 makes during my 12 years on the job. Both the F89 and the F12 suffered breakdown that needed trained mechanics to repair them, a diff on the 89 and a fuel pump on the 12.
However 2 were completely trouble free over thousands of miles - the Mercedes 1926 and the Scammel Cruisader. The Merc was a gutless pig that required meticulous planning before any attempt at overtaking but it got therevand got back every time, as did the Cruisader. But the Cruisader with its Rolls engine and 13 speed Fuller was a much better drive and the factory sleeper was very comfortable.
So what in the World is the conclusion to that one?David
I’d guess the conclusion is that firstly there was no such thing as a ‘standard’ KW being an assembly type operation built to customer requirements or at least retro fitted.Bearing in mind that KW also effectively took over the Australian market from around 1969 on.IE able to withstand probably as harsh if not harsher conditions than anything which the Middle East could throw at it or for that matter a Canadian winter.All that with a comfortable cab and obviously the ■■■■■■■ ( or Detroit ) and Fuller combination as a matter of course. 
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83810&start=2520#p2142562
On that note no I never even drove a truck across the channel but I’d have happily let you take the Crusader while I took the KW given the dream job of working for Friderici.In which case I also might have even have asked for a 12v71 in it instead of the ■■■■■■■■ 
[zb]
anorak:robert1952:
When drawing up comparisons of this kind, it should always be borne in mind that whereas the likes of Scania and Volvo turned out premium European units, some of the British assemblers/builders were turning out two quite different beasts in the premium category: domestic sloggers with sleeper cabs and acceptable performance; and alongside them LHD Euro-spec version with properly equipped cabs and big engines…
RobertWere the LHD versions so different from the vehicles aimed at the GB long haul market, apart from maybe an extra few horsepower and a cab big enough to sleep two? While I accept that your favourite ERF might have been a step up from an LV, it was unusual in that respect. The LHD Seddon Atkinson, for example, did not appear any different from its RHD sister. The NTC335 would have been an option on the spec sheet, alongside left- or right hand drive, I would guess.
As far as I can make out from reading these threads, really useful Middle East additions, like fuel tank heaters, chassis-mounted lockable tool/chain boxes etc. were absent from the specification of most vehicles.
A very pertinent question. In the case of the export models, it went beyond comfy cabs and big engines in those days. To meet European standards, ERF and others were expected to beef up their LHD channel hoppers to meet much higher standard of HANDLING charactaristics: steering, braking, acceleration, suspension etc. For ERF these were largely sorted out when the 5MW-cabbed ‘European’ didn’t come up to Belgian testers’ requirements. By January 1973 ERF had got its act together and produced both the 5MW-cabbed ‘European’ and the 7MW-cabbed ‘European’, ready to compete in the insipient EEC market. The SA 400, likewise, was a new EEC-compliant unit which was more advanced than its domestic counterpart which had an NTC 335. I have no knowledge of domestic RHD 400s with that engine.
And you are right in thinking that the M/E add-ons were generally retro-fitted until the ‘Middle-East’ or ‘Long-haul’ spec options came on the scene (such as Saviem’s ‘Orient Express’), all featured in the long-haul cab pack thread referred to above. Robert
Dirty Dan:
I think Rogers F12 is up there to.I think its from the late 70is
Danne
Absolutely! I actually drove an early F12 Globetrotter with the Middle-East cab pack, which included a fitted kitchen with a spirit-burning stove - but only on UK work, alas! Your picture of Roger Haywood’s Astran example is a good example. They were superb to drive. Robert
David Miller:
Robert you are going to need to apply some rules here. On the basis of what criteria are you to decide what was ‘Best’? I would say that the first rule should be ‘did you drive one on the middle east and if not you have nothing to say’. But still what does ‘best’ mean? Most flashy? Most reiable? Most comfortable?For example, whoever put 6 wheel Kenworth never drove one on the job. Apart from being very uncomfortable their standard metal suspension was not up to the wonderful roads that we had to drive on. Fine on the Interstate no doubt but a bit out of class on the Autoput. It was notable that all the Frederici units were on air suspension. They knew what they were doing.
Also we need to get things right. The Bugarian State Transport ‘Sofimat’ had no Mercedes units in the early 70s. They ran a fleet of mostly Volvo F88s on trilex wheels and a ragged mob of East European machines like Tatra and Liaz which went East but were not sent West. Also a fleet whose drivers were all trained mechanics hardly counts in the reliability stakes.
I drove 4 makes during my 12 years on the job. Both the F89 and the F12 suffered breakdown that needed trained mechanics to repair them, a diff on the 89 and a fuel pump on the 12.
However 2 were completely trouble free over thousands of miles - the Mercedes 1926 and the Scammel Cruisader. The Merc was a gutless pig that required meticulous planning before any attempt at overtaking but it got therevand got back every time, as did the Cruisader. But the Cruisader with its Rolls engine and 13 speed Fuller was a much better drive and the factory sleeper was very comfortable.
So what in the World is the conclusion to that one?David
Hello David! It’s not really for me to apply rules here, as I’ve simply borrowed Biglorryblog’s request for info about the best '70s Middle-East unit and bunged it on this forum because I reckoned it would get a much better response. My efforts have already been richly rewarded! You raise some really excellent points.
Firstly, your point about ensuring that contributors actually drove their proposed model on M/E work is really important to this debate. I would even add to your question: ‘did you drive one?’; the following questions - ‘did you operate one?’ and ‘did you work on one as a mechanic when it came home after every trip?’
However, I would add the caveat that I believe it is possible to gain some insight into the working life of a Middle-East long-hauler without actually having driven that particular model down there if you do your homework properly. As you know, I was a Middle-East driver myself for a little while, but I was able recently to research the fortunes of the ERF NGC and its performance on the Middle-East run with some integrity, despite not having driven one out of the UK.
You are, of course, right about the Somat Mercs, and although I encountered them in Bulgaria, it was much later, in the '90s. And again, I agree that the indestructible, if lack-lustre, Merc 1626 would plod on forever - but that ZF gearbox wasn’t a favourite of mine!
You raise the question: does ‘best’ mean most flashy or most reliable or most comfortable. I would add to that: does it mean ‘most fun to drive’? This is not a flippant addition because as a lapsed owner-driver I would not entertain the idea of buying a premium long-haul tractive unit for Middle-East work that was not fun to drive!
Finally, I’m heartened to hear that the Scammell Crusader cab was endurable. I would love to have taken a Crusader down there. Insha’allah I’ll get to drive a Crusader before I get too old!
As always, David, I enjoyed your thoughtful contribution. Hope to catch up with you at Gaydon. Robert
robert1952:
Hello David! It’s not really for me to apply rules here, as I’ve simply borrowed Biglorryblog’s request for info about the best '70s Middle-East unit and bunged it on this forum because I reckoned it would get a much better response. My efforts have already been richly rewarded! You raise some really excellent points.Firstly, your point about ensuring that contributors actually drove their proposed model on M/E work is really important to this debate. I would even add to your question: ‘did you drive one?’; the following questions - ‘did you operate one?’ and ‘did you work on one as a mechanic when it came home after every trip?’
However, I would add the caveat that I believe it is possible to gain some insight into the working life of a Middle-East long-hauler without actually having driven that particular model down there if you do your homework properly. As you know, I was a Middle-East driver myself for a little while, but I was able recently to research the fortunes of the ERF NGC and its performance on the Middle-East run with some integrity, despite not having driven one out of the UK.
To be fair there is arguably some room in the discussion for a hytpothetical view from the point of view of the manufacturers.IE from the point of view of knowing the conditions and usage requirements without needing to experience them what would you see as ‘the best’ product if your reputation depended on it.On that note it would obviously have been commercial suicide to recommend the Bedford TK/KM rather than the TM ( or 500 powered Ergo rather than Rolls powered Crusader ) for two examples.Then you can add customer natural selection to that in which case as I’ve said I can understand Friderici’s choice of KW over Mercedes etc again without having driven a wagon even across the channel.
I think in a lot of cases it was “Run what you brung.” An owner drive who was enticed onto M/E work because of promises of untold riches was unlikely to buy something special for the job. He would go with what he had and what he was familiar with and hope for the best. That is probably why so many so-called unsuitable trucks and their drivers gave it a try. I know George Youngman wouldn’t hear a word said against his Foden. He bought the truck with his redundancy money and ran it in the UK for many years before trying Europe and then the Middle East. He knew that truck inside-out and I don’t think he would have been happier with any thing else.
robert1952:
David Miller:
Robert you are going to need to apply some rules here. On the basis of what criteria are you to decide what was ‘Best’? I would say that the first rule should be ‘did you drive one on the middle east and if not you have nothing to say’. But still what does ‘best’ mean? Most flashy? Most reiable? Most comfortable?For example, whoever put 6 wheel Kenworth never drove one on the job. Apart from being very uncomfortable their standard metal suspension was not up to the wonderful roads that we had to drive on. Fine on the Interstate no doubt but a bit out of class on the Autoput. It was notable that all the Frederici units were on air suspension. They knew what they were doing.
Also we need to get things right. The Bugarian State Transport ‘Sofimat’ had no Mercedes units in the early 70s. They ran a fleet of mostly Volvo F88s on trilex wheels and a ragged mob of East European machines like Tatra and Liaz which went East but were not sent West. Also a fleet whose drivers were all trained mechanics hardly counts in the reliability stakes.
I drove 4 makes during my 12 years on the job. Both the F89 and the F12 suffered breakdown that needed trained mechanics to repair them, a diff on the 89 and a fuel pump on the 12.
However 2 were completely trouble free over thousands of miles - the Mercedes 1926 and the Scammel Cruisader. The Merc was a gutless pig that required meticulous planning before any attempt at overtaking but it got therevand got back every time, as did the Cruisader. But the Cruisader with its Rolls engine and 13 speed Fuller was a much better drive and the factory sleeper was very comfortable.
So what in the World is the conclusion to that one?David
Hello David! It’s not really for me to apply rules here, as I’ve simply borrowed Biglorryblog’s request for info about the best '70s Middle-East unit and bunged it on this forum because I reckoned it would get a much better response. My efforts have already been richly rewarded! You raise some really excellent points.
Firstly, your point about ensuring that contributors actually drove their proposed model on M/E work is really important to this debate. I would even add to your question: ‘did you drive one?’; the following questions - ‘did you operate one?’ and ‘did you work on one as a mechanic when it came home after every trip?’
However, I would add the caveat that I believe it is possible to gain some insight into the working life of a Middle-East long-hauler without actually having driven that particular model down there if you do your homework properly. As you know, I was a Middle-East driver myself for a little while, but I was able recently to research the fortunes of the ERF NGC and its performance on the Middle-East run with some integrity, despite not having driven one out of the UK.
You are, of course, right about the Somat Mercs, and although I encountered them in Bulgaria, it was much later, in the '90s. And again, I agree that the indestructible, if lack-lustre, Merc 1626 would plod on forever - but that ZF gearbox wasn’t a favourite of mine!
You raise the question: does ‘best’ mean most flashy or most reliable or most comfortable. I would add to that: does it mean ‘most fun to drive’? This is not a flippant addition because as a lapsed owner-driver I would not entertain the idea of buying a premium long-haul tractive unit for Middle-East work that was not fun to drive!
Finally, I’m heartened to hear that the Scammell Crusader cab was endurable. I would love to have taken a Crusader down there. Insha’allah I’ll get to drive a Crusader before I get too old!
As always, David, I enjoyed your thoughtful contribution. Hope to catch up with you at Gaydon. Robert
Be a brave man that took a lorry with the name “Crusader” down that way these days
Thank you all for your input in this thread, let me just clarify a bit more
We at T&D are looking at running a feature on the “Best trucks on the ME runs”. That is the working title… it is really the most iconic ME trucks.
Now, i know, this is all subjective, as is any question when it comes to vehicle choices and preferences! But, what i am looking for is the general consensus of what were the most iconic trucks, as in which ones performed most regularly and successfully on the ME runs, and so I guess the trucks we most associate with the ME runs. Of course, some drivers will have had trouble-free runs with a Foden, ERF or Guy, others will have experienced breakdowns in a Scania, DAF or Volvo. But as a percentage i guess some of those latter makes will have been - overall - better than some of the former. But not always!
For example, the Saurer 330 was seen on the ME runs, but only in small numbers because their were pretty much confined to swiss operators. So a Swiss haulier from the time might have sworn by them and throughout of them as the best, but a British operator would not have [much of] a clue about them! So i’ve not regarded that model as an iconic ME truck - unless anyone wants to beg to differ!
The article is always going to cause some debate, disagreement and discussion! But I guess the result I am looking for are the most iconic ME trucks, with no more than one model suggestion from any individual manufacturer. Also we can be ‘broad’, so I am grouping the Scania 110/140 and 111/141 together as one entry, and mentioning that they gave rise to the 112/142. Likewise, the F88 and F89 are ‘one and the same’ for the purpose of this article, and while the F10/F12 were seen by most as an improvement, were they more or less iconic than the F88/89? I would argue the latter, but likewise they too will get a mention in the F88/89 entry!
Keep those anecdotes an input coming, i’m enjoying reading them!
Pip Dunn
Editor
Truck & Driver
Pip Dunn T&D:
Thank you all for your input in this thread, let me just clarify a bit moreWe at T&D are looking at running a feature on the “Best trucks on the ME runs”. That is the working title… it is really the most iconic ME trucks.
Now, i know, this is all subjective, as is any question when it comes to vehicle choices and preferences! But, what i am looking for is the general consensus of what were the most iconic trucks, as in which ones performed most regularly and successfully on the ME runs, and so I guess the trucks we most associate with the ME runs. Of course, some drivers will have had trouble-free runs with a Foden, ERF or Guy, others will have experienced breakdowns in a Scania, DAF or Volvo. But as a percentage i guess some of those latter makes will have been - overall - better than some of the former. But not always!
For example, the Saurer 330 was seen on the ME runs, but only in small numbers because their were pretty much confined to swiss operators. So a Swiss haulier from the time might have sworn by them and throughout of them as the best, but a British operator would not have [much of] a clue about them! So i’ve not regarded that model as an iconic ME truck - unless anyone wants to beg to differ!
The article is always going to cause some debate, disagreement and discussion! But I guess the result I am looking for are the most iconic ME trucks, with no more than one model suggestion from any individual manufacturer. Also we can be ‘broad’, so I am grouping the Scania 110/140 and 111/141 together as one entry, and mentioning that they gave rise to the 112/142. Likewise, the F88 and F89 are ‘one and the same’ for the purpose of this article, and while the F10/F12 were seen by most as an improvement, were they more or less iconic than the F88/89? I would argue the latter, but likewise they too will get a mention in the F88/89 entry!
Keep those anecdotes an input coming, i’m enjoying reading them!
Pip Dunn
Editor
Truck & Driver
Thank you for clarifying, Pip. So now the quest is for the most iconic truck on the M/E run. This is an interesting subject but it has, arguably, been done to death in the various truck magazines over the last 40 years. As I see it, iconic truck culture can only ever be concerned with the relatively superficial, cosmetic appeal of certain models. Nothing essentially wrong with doing that in a light-hearted way: that’s what magazines are for.
However, a considerable number of contributors to this forum have habitually taken the debate way beyond the cab shapes, names and badges to examine in detail what the best trucks for the job were; what the nicest to drive were; the most economic; most powerful; most torquey; those with the best back-up etc. Many of these contributors actually owned, operated, sold, marketed, drove these wagon or were mechanics and fitters on them.
We already know which were the most common models so deeper explorations are called for if we are to spawn a more rigorous generation of articles on this subject. If you read through - and I’m sure you have - some of these threads (like the ‘Astran’ thread, the recent ‘Why did Leyland fail?’, the ‘Saviem’ thread, the ‘ERF European (1975)’ thread – and many others besides, it becomes apparent that there is massive insight, knowledge and expertise out there. Lots of common myths are busted in these debates, such as why F88/89 were not necessarily that brilliant (just iconic!); or why not all ERF models were gaffer’s motors by a long chalk. The devil is in the fine details and there are enough of those on this forum to produce a library of books on the subject of the real icons on the M/E run. Just trying to be helpful. Cheers! Robert
To add to Robert’s post, I would suggest that a more interesting magazine article would be titled, “Unsung heroes of the Middle East”, or something like that. It would go into previously unprinted detail about machinery which was more than fit for purpose but, for whatever reason, was not a common sight in the day. Looking at the numerous photographs floating about, there were a few Berliet TRs sent East, Friderici had Henschels alongside the KWs, Rynart used Fiats etc. etc.
Given that none of the mass-produced vehicles was originally designed to operate in such diverse conditions- minus 40 to plus 50 degrees temperature, for instance- what about the modifications done by the more enterprising operators? An example of this would be the sleeper cabs that Friderici had on its Henschels- who built them, why not just use the standard offering, what features did they have?
If you want words about F89s and 141s, just use the Search function at the top right of the page. Regular contributors to these threads have read it all, more than once.
Robert, that is a very good, well reasoned, and well thought out response and gets to the crux of the debate from someone who has a very deep knowledge and understanding of international haulage. Mr Dunn would do well to take notice of what you have written.
I would even play Devil’s advocate and suggest that there is no such thing as an iconic truck, but as you say it is a magazine editor’s job to create interest and generate sales. A truck is a tool to do a job, some are better than others, and as you say, there are so many parameters to debate that it will be very subjective. If I had been asked to choose a truck for regular Middle East work then reliability would have been my starting point, irrespective of what its badge on the grille was.
gingerfold:
Robert, that is a very good, well reasoned, and well thought out response and gets to the crux of the debate from someone who has a very deep knowledge and understanding of international haulage. Mr Dunn would do well to take notice of what you have written.I would even play Devil’s advocate and suggest that there is no such thing as an iconic truck, but as you say it is a magazine editor’s job to create interest and generate sales. A truck is a tool to do a job, some are better than others, and as you say, there are so many parameters to debate that it will be very subjective. If I had been asked to choose a truck for regular Middle East work then reliability would have been my starting point, irrespective of what its badge on the grille was.
Thank you for that! I think you are right to take issue with the icon. In the Oxford Concise Dictionary sense that an icon can be something ‘regarded as a representative symbol of, or as worthy of veneration’, it could be argued that a number of mainstream models (F89, 141 et al) are icons of the M/E run simply for being so well represented (ie not necessarily for their merit). This is why I think it is important to look beyond the icon. Robert
robert1952:
Thank you for that! I think you are right to take issue with the icon. In the Oxford Concise Dictionary sense that an icon can be something ‘regarded as a representative symbol of, or as worthy of veneration’, it could be argued that a number of mainstream models (F89, 141 et al) are icons of the M/E run simply for being so well represented (ie not necessarily for their merit). This is why I think it is important to look beyond the icon. Robert
Realistically ‘Iconic’ Middle East wagon means the combination of commonly used on the basis of natural selection,combination of durability and performance which probably falls under the same heading as commonly used/natural selection and best from the driver’s point of view.As I’ve said by the standards of the 1970’s the V8 Scania or KW will have to be somewhere around the top of that list and probably winning out on the basis of commonly used all other boxes being more or less ticked.With Astran being associated with the Scania and Friderici with the KW.
Hey, I think, all were good if they didn’t break down 
But the Scania’s 76/ 110’s before 1972 gave heating problems.
Further think the best combination was Fuller/Rockwell driveline, and Mercedes was everywhere
to repair. And don’t forget the ■■■■■■■ engine.
Eric,
Quite a few on this thread have already stated that reliability meant pretty well everything on the M/E run. I would concur entirely with that view. Strangely, it is possible that some of the more obviously ‘iconic’ models could find themselves lower down the list than previously thought - who knows?
When I was researching my books about the ERF NGC, I was astonished to hear from so many drivers who had actually driven them down to the Gulf (or in Arabia on internals), just how utterly reliable they were. One of Richard Read’s mechanics told me that they only required routine maintenance between trips because they never went wrong; a Richard Read driver drove one down there for five years and it never broke down! My point is: when you start digging deeper, it is not always the obvious models that shone. As Carryfast pointed out, it might be as well to examine some of the more obscure models run down to the Gulf by Continental operators in those days - and I reckon that Saviem with the ‘Orient Express’ cab-pack might be a good place to start! Robert
I know the Volvo F88 didn’t have a reputation for reliability but surely Pat Seal and his F88 are the icons of the Middle East Run.
A different angle on this could be what lorry springs to mind when talking about middle east hauliers.My list would be the Transcon , the BRS Marathons and the Whittle Seddon Atkis , but what about those that did it in Atkis , Mandators , Big Js , Fodens etc , the Astran AEC has got to be a classic .The foreign invasion are obviously going to dominate this thread but what about the older British contingent ■■?