Berliet

[sammyopisite]

Saviem:

sammyopisite:
Hi Saviem , your post as brought a grey cell out of slumber as I went into a firm in St. Etienne who ran a lot of Berliet heavy haulage wagons 6x4 s and 6x6 s this would be in the early 70s as the first time was for a heavy route back up to Le Harve as the one I had was wrong and they were very helpful and after that we used to fuel up there as well but I cannot recall their name but they mostly heavy haulage as to what I saw in their depot was all low loader trailers. It is strange that you read something and it brings things back from so long ago.
cheers Johnnie

You know Johnnie the French had a way with Heavy Haulage, remember those Convoie Exceptionele routes? Used to wander all over the countryside, without any seeming logic. One night going back to my “digs”, just outside Pont LEveque, I met a Zucconi Willeme TG300 and girder trailer on a little D road, didnt know that a Renault 4 could fit through such a little gap, I can tell you that slowed me down a lot! The old Berliet TBO, either as a 6x4 or 6x6 was a front line tractor, in 5th wheel, or ballast form for many French Heavy Hauliers.Often working at up to 200tonnes. I have a photograph of a major move by Tpts Scalex, signed by all the drivers ,of “our” TBO 6x4, heading up a pair of “true” Willemes, a TG200 8x4, (180 tonne), &TG300 8x8 (300tonne) and Nicolas multi axle module with some “heavy bit” of the French Nuclear industry on board! I really rated the Willeme, and post 1970 PRP-Willeme heavy haulage machines. When knowledge that PRP were becoming a little under capatalised, I was involved from our offices in Suresnes, in a comprehensive market survey of the potential in the market place, and viability of the PRP Willeme product against its competitors. I cannot speak highly enough of the product, its design and engineering credentials were of the highest order, and its production cost most competitive. The reports were received favourably by our senior management, but then of course came our marriage with Berliet, and that was the end of that! Otherwise Saviem may have had a real rival to the UKs Scammell! Perez et Raimond, (PRP), struggled on to 1978, then Belgiums MOL acquired the design and manufacturing rights, and one sole TG appeared in Spain, shown as a Trabosa, but bearing the MOL symbol. Ive gone off thread again, sorry, (was that Stags yard where you drew derv, or was it Dessierer)? Cheerio for now.

Hi Saviem please accept my apologies for being a while in answering but was busy on other things. I am not sure of the name but they were all red vehicles and trailers and I think the name was in white and address in black writing but as I said they re wrote me a heavy route and it was all typed in english as well for me as at that time not to many people spoke english so I tried to learn their language but not very successful and it was the first time that I set eyes on the jeep dolly which went under the trailer and then you coupled up to the jeep and it was an artic under an artic which did become more widely used in later years in heavy haulage. There was only a handful of trailers in the depot but probably 7 or 8 people in the office so it was a fair sized company for a heavy haulage firm but they were very helpful and friendly. The route was was all N roads and little roads as spardo pointed out but I was able to use it for around 12 loads or so except one which was a machine base which weighed 37 tons but did not look heavy as it would have gone a flat trailer bar the weight
as it was snowing very heavy when that was loaded so I went back up to Lyon and came up the auto route ! and it got quite deep around 8 iches deep but with that weight on and double drive I was able to keep going and nobody was passing me just happy to keep going and when I stopped so did most others but we got back with no problems. I think that must be the only time that other drivers were content to sit behind a Pickfords wagon.
cheers Johnnie

P S I have been busy with a new gadget which puts old music tapes on to the computer it is slow and time consuming

[saviem]

Hello all,[ZB], you are taxing a man, whose memory is long past any reasonable sell by date! plus a long day flail hedge cutting, (I like things to look neat, and the birds are going to nest early this year), so, I will try to answer your questions. Second one first, everyone gave the Eurotest their best shot bar none. We used a completly standard TR305, straight from the Raid Economie, no special preperation, that was how confident we were! The Spaniards, that Dodge was “spot on” mechanically, but the “bling” was really lacking, I can still remember the paint job, (or lack of it). The Scania, well they were a typically anticeptic lot! I think they came convinced that they were going to win outright, and the Spaniards, and the Germans really spoiled their party. That Foden was a gem, and the people with her were real “lorry people”, and were recognised as such by all participants. Was she , (our big Swedish girl),tampered with, no, but I think as news about fuel consumption, (or lack of it)! filtered about, I think that the Swedes were concerned, and endeavoured to optimise their own. I have had experience of many journalistic road tests, UK, France, Germany, Italy, USA, and no where have I ever experienced such intent on “getting it right, and making it fair”, as Pats testing procedure. You really can use his statistics as a true comparison against each other in terms of vehicles performance production. I can genuinely think of no other journalist, or publication in Europe or the US, that was so fanatically “fair”. Pat set out to provide operators, large and small, with real inside knowledge, of the industry, and its products. His success can only be measured by the change in the industries written media to “ape” his original model, Truck magazine. [ZB], your first question, no the PS30 was a different vehicle to the Eurotest MAN 321. She had at her heart the D2566MTF, long stroke, (155mm, as opposed to the earlier 16.232s 142mm) 206kw, 280Din HP, ( or 310 French CV), 17.1 compression Turbo 6cylinder, that we called the R6. These MAN engines were the result of the joint manufacturing project with Mercedes Benz, christened D25. Whereby MAN would concentrate on inline 6cylinder configuration, and Mercedes, (where practicable), on the Vees. The engine that powered the 321 MAN was basically the same engine, but with enormous engineering integrity the MAN designers had improved the power and "driveable"torque output with the addition of “non wearing” parts. Charge cooling, with an air to air radiator in front of the liquid one,coupled to “tuned port” technology. The engine visually looked like the “old” D2566MTF, with a little more in the way of lumpy bits, and was designated D2566MK, (I think)!! The net effect was similar to twin Turbo systems, but without the complexity. The torque curve was flat, and like our Maxi-Couple did not give heavy fuel use if a driver was forced to “over rev” in say a hilly area, compared to the contemporary ■■■■■■■■ that would ■■■■ fuel like no tommorow, if you went outside of the economy band! However in certain circumstances the fuel useage was similar to the earlier engine as used in “our” PS30, hence my (unfortunate) accuracy in predicting fuel useage on certain sections of the test route!! MAN fitted a 13sp Fuller as standard, coupled to their own substantial 13tonne hub reduction axle. On the Saviem PS30, we either fitted our own Saviem GR350 synchromesh 10sp , or my favourite the Fuller RTOO613 double overdrive 12sp plus crawler, an incredibly driveable combination, and coupled to our own P1332 double reduction rear axle, made a light, comprehensively equipped38tonne tractor, that really made you smile when you drove her!! You know its funny in the “corporate world”, when a senior man affirms the strength of ongoing partnerships, you know that they are going to end! Thus it was when our President, the enigmatic, and immensely likeable Corsican, Francoise Zanotti, announced in Juin 1977, the “new era” of collaboration by Saviem and Berliet, and in a further announcement affirmed the collaboration between MAN and Saviem, ongoing since 1963, we all looked sad, for we new our ties with those superb German engineers and lorry men would be coming to an end! It is a long way, and time from then, and now looking back at it following a days hedge cutting in rural Staffordshire, I am away for a shower, a chicken dinner, and a glass of delightful chilled Bollinger! Cheerio for now.

[gb1]

A few BERLIET brochures…

[zb_anorak]

Hi gb1, that first pic shows a TR300, if I am not mistaken. Do you have the rest of the brochure? There are more Berliet things here, if you are interested: forum.aceboard.fr/12980-1221-252 … ERLIET.htm

Salut Monsieur Saviem, apologies for my incessant badgering. If it is any recompense, I understand that the quacks of the world recommend keeping the mind active in retirement, although I may be guilty of at least one count of presumption there.

The PS30, then, seems like a version of the MAN 19.280, IE the model previous to the 321 in the roadtest. Did Saviem get round to fitting a 321-type engine (intercooler, tuned ports) in their chassis, or did they stop making the big stuff before this could happen? To be fair to Renault, one can not blame them for dropping the heavy end of the Saviem range, when they already had Berliet. I get the impression that the MAN technology that came to France was not as farm-fresh as that on MAN’s own products- did Saviem not use the older D21 engine, long after the Germans had started using the D25? Also, MAN cannot have been supplying their help fur nichts. There must have been some mark-up on the factory gate prices of the engines. With a fully-functioning engine builder under its own roof, Renault had to choose one or the other…

On the subject of the Eurotest, I remember reading it, when it was first published, and finding anomalies in the calculation of the productivity scores at the end. IIRC, all the vehicles carried the same payload, and it was this which was used to calculate the payload earnings factor. The actual, tested, gross weight was used to calculate the gross earnings factor. While this gives the most accurate reading of performance/weight, it buggers up the comparative nature of the results- the lighter tractor units would see no advantage in the “payload” figure, while the heavier units would be flattered by the “gross” figure. In my opinion, they should have just used 38,000kg to calculate the gross number and simply subtracted the ULW of each vehicle for the payload earnings factor. When I have made the effort to make sense of the scans above, I will post the “correct” scores!

Once again, thanks for your contributions- your memories of the Truck roadtest make a fascinating counterpoint to it.

[saviem]

Hello all, [ZB], no problem, Ive more than enough to keep me active, retirement, no, I will go down in the shafts if I can!!! No, the PS30 she was "our" best, and last. The deal with MAN was heavily in Saviems favour, as had been the “Club of Four” cab deal. The MAN-Mercedes engine deal was really the beginning of the end, and sheer logic dictated the Berliet Saviem merger, but like our own Leyland mergers you end up with too many products, production facilities, and sadly feet on the ground! The concept works, the execution, well that takes a lot longer, and is more painfull to work out! Interesting theory on the test formula, try it out, I remember doing a similar exercise on a Renault HM 38tonner, against a TR356, (lower net weight), would be interested to see your conclusions. Away for my tea, and a little light Bollinger. Cheerio for now.

[riverstick]

Enjoying this thread immensely…no infighting or sniping…just a nice nostalgic history lesson.

Here’s a video of a nice restoration of a TR 280…with a tasty interior shot at 8.18…enjoy!

youtube.com/watch?v=pt6ByW_qwcE

[spardo]

Thanks Riverstick, an interesting ‘video’ and especially so for me being located just up the road over the border in Haute-Vienne.

[gb1]

[zb]
anorak:
Hi gb1, that first pic shows a TR300, if I am not mistaken. Do you have the rest of the brochure? There are more Berliet things here, if you are interested: forum.aceboard.fr/12980-1221-252 … ERLIET.htm

I’ve got a stack of Berliet brochures, covering most of the ranges from that era. Unfortunately, i’m not due home until the end of April (if i’m lucky),
although there is a chance I may be able to drop home for a couple of hours on my way by. If I get the time i’ll scan the pages and post them. Failing
that, i’m afraid it’ll be a bit of a wait.

[saviem]

Evening Gentlemen, well, well, you are really making me re live my younger days! Riverstick, that really is a delightful photo montage, makes you realise what pleasure we all get from the old lorries that we were involved with, and the great friendships that spring from them, and after a day out in Staffordshire rain, how much I really miss France! Now I must confess, I am not good with this electronic gadgetry! part because my farm is situated at the end of what our resident “Openreach” engineer describes as the “oldest copper cable” in Staffordshire, and partly because I am always so busy that I cannot find time to develop my computer skills!! Hence ,as yet I am unable to show you all the images that overflow from many,many , filing cabinets in my farm office. But I will, (eventually). So may I bore you with one or two recollections of my time, (always happy), with Saviem, and Berliet, and Renault Vehicules Industriels, in the various areas that I worked. I was always “cab happy”, from a youngster I always wanted to be a “lorry driver”, in actual fact I only drove a lorry for a living from 1965 to 1969, but worked with lorries for over 40years. Now when I arrived at Vennisieux, via Blainville, & Suresnes, I was , as were all "ex Saviem " men regarded as an “oddball”! Of course we were, we had come to the hallowed halls of French lorry manufacture, the products of Berliet were perfection! Very few had any experience of any other lorries, Saviem, perhaps, Scania, Volvo,DAF, “who, what were these”■■ The first thing that I organised for “my Dealers”,( Midi=Pyrenees, under my boss, and a good one, M Hude), was a comparative “ride and drive”, using rented vehicles from my friends at Locamion, Fraikin,and France Location. This gave us a good spread of product from our competitors, and as usual, (a feature of the French market that I could never get used to), 90% of the salesmen could not drive a lorry!!! But it worked, in that the men on the ground began to learn the strengths of the opposition, and more importantly their weakness! Remember at this time mid70s, the French, and European market was really flat, so every sale was hard won. And I was depending on the efforts of these “apparant dead legs” to move “my” allocation of stock through their Dealerships! Available to operators, for their drivers, were a series of driving courses, designed to enhance their satisfaction, and familiarity with our products. One such, The Alpine driving course, over 4days was available, so with due sanction from “above” I enrolled myself. Now I was, as any overconfident young man would be, convinced that there was little that I could learn!! Had I not driven to Italy via Mt Cennis in a 4LK Foden 4wheeler, or done Geneve in a Gardner powered S39, and Cennis both ways also? Big head, how the mighty do fall!! 0700 Depart St Priest, TR350, 31 W 69, (I can still remember that registration), Trailor tri axle factory blue tilt @38tonnes, Rene Moustance, “my trainer”. 10 ks, stop for “pd”, he 3 Pernods, 2 cafe, me 1 cafe, and a great dose of uncertainty!! Over the next few days Rene and I were to establish a good working relationship, he was the boss, and me , I was very much the pupil!!Each day contained a reward, should we go to Cannes, or perhaps Nice, for our afternoon break we could from the windows of our “Hotel Berliet” watch the rich at play! (but it was much nicer to do so from a pavement cafe seat on the Promenade des Anglais, while "our TR350 recovered from the days exertions! Did I learn, oh yes,yes, France is a magnificent country, vehicle and people density was low, I never realised that such testing terrain was available, those that know may have experienced such delights as, Col des Fouches, on the D64, Col de Turini, (just concentrate, and remember that Nice lies down there)!!Oh do not forget Col De Vance, (nasty little b…) Then there were the ones up to the Ski Resorts, and even worse coming down!! Ye s, I did learn, and learned to respect the men who drove these routes everyday, and how to best drive a maxi-couple engine, use a Telma, and to cope without, probably the most instructive week of my life. But I still cannot cope with Pernod for breakfast!! Cheerio for now.

[riverstick]

Cannes,Nice,Monte Carlo etc are my favourite places to be on this earth…I only wish I could be a manufacturer’s test pilot observing Classy Totty parading up and down the Riviera in their seductive little bikinis…and getting paid to do so!

Saviem,how did you transform from British lorry driver to French truck area sales manager in the 1970’s…sounds like you really enjoyed your time there.

[zb_anorak]

Sorry boss, could not make sense of the unreadable numbers in the scans of the Truck magazine article. Will have another go tomorrow. If that fails, I may have to visit my collection of old lorry memorabilia (where a copy of the magazine resides) and pluck up the courage to inspect the reported flood damage (That is another story, hopefully with a happy ending).
And now, the inevitable question: the late '70s Berliets (TR305 and 350) seemed to have sprouted a rather ungainly moulding in the centre footwell, where before it had been flatter. The middle seat may have been raised a bit too. Was this to cover a bump in the floorpan pressing, possibly to accomodate intercooler pipes?

[newmercman]

Saviem, having followed in the footsteps of the late great Pat Kennet at his beloved TRUCK magazine, I can confirm your impressions of the ‘roadtest’ as done the Kennet way, we used the same formulae he had set up right up the turn of the new milleneum. On sections of the test route that hadn’t changed you could have compared a 1975 F88 with a 2000 FM12, as all the variables were eliminated.

I also did a Trans-Euro Test which as well as using parts of the original route now took us down to Milan, that was run by the super efficient Germans of Fernfahrer Trucker Magazine and they took it all very seriously, even as far as fitting their own fuel tanks and measuring fuel temperature to get fuel use recordings into the 1/100ths of a litre, the formulae they used for everything…yep, Mr Kennet’s

[zb_anorak]

Hello All, as promised I have had a look at those Eurotest results again, and- practically none of it multiplies out to give the figures quoted in the magazine! While the test procedure may have been beyond reproach, the calculations appear to have been done after several bottles of Les Routiers’ finest. The only numbers which make sense are the mpg versus the payload earnings factor- all of the lorries (bar the MAN-its results are all over the place), according to the article, carried 23.376 tons- as stated. After that, it all goes to pot- EG the gross earnings factors appear to show different trailer weights for each vehicle(6.3 to 7.1ton)! Also, is it not odd that the Ford had a ULW of exactly 7000kg? How annoying. If anyone has a spare moment and a calculator, see if you can make sense of it.

[dieseldogsix]

For anyone interested on Ebay right now Renault 385ti Hi-roof, it’s a 95 with only 96,000 km’s on the clock, been used as a racing car transporter, with a buy it now price of £4,500.

[dieseldogsix]

Bump: this is a great thread, so I put something up that’s on Fleabay and you all vanish, have you all gone out to buy it.

[spardo]

Dieseldogsix:
Bump: this is a great thread, so I put something up that’s on Fleabay and you all vanish, have you all gone out to buy it.

Give us a chance, it’s only been a day. And anyway, Saturday was a big pétanque day.

And no, I can’t afford it.

[saviem]

Evening all, dieseldogsix, I looked, but I could not find it!! several sad Magnums, a Premium, that`s it, (but my computer skills, and equipment are rudimentary)!! Yes it would be nice to see someone campaigning a Berliet, Renault, on the UK scene, but probably unlikely. You know the lighter Berliets of the 60s had Perkins engines, and they were well thought of in the French market. They were replaced by the J Series Saviems, a very good product, with 130hp naturally aspirated Saviem 797 engine, or the Turbocharged version at 150hp, the 798, synchro ZF 5sp, 7.5 to 13tonnes gvw, Club of Four cab in day or sleeper form. The Berliet version was called the “B” series! The same lorry was “fine tuned” to become the Mack Midliner for the US and Canadian market. There are quite a few still about, it was a very good lorry, though why the UK importer chose not to specify the factory sleeper, choosing instead to have a conversion by “Brook Lane Garage”, ( or some similar name), from Barnsley, or Bradford??( I really do not know), all I do know was that the steel rustproofing used really lacked substance, they rotted as you looked at them! a great shame, as the lorry was really a little gem! My very good friends, Edwin, Dell, and R oy, (not forgetting Ollie), at Edwin Shirley Trucking, ran a number of them, (as they did a nicely painted TR 305), on self drive rental to the “music industry”, I wonder did anyone ever get paid■■? I think another UK client, who ran quite a few was Paul Mc Glone, at Placketts Parcels. In France of course they were everywhere, the biggest user being Calberson. Did any of you visit their multi storey facility in Paris, topped off with a studio for RTL, whose Max Meynier used this facility to broadcast his popular programme, “Les Routiers sont sympa”. And all Routiers, and their families were welcome as audience, and to participate in his broadcasts. You know France really did learn to appreciate the role of the lorry, and more importantly the lorry driver, (and his difficulties, and sacrifices), to the economy of their country. Why this country, or its professional organisations, RHA, FTA, and the Unions, (perhaps the biggest failure in this area), have consistently failed to promote a “good and vital image”, for both road haulage, and more importantly the people involved in our industry to the “man in the street”, I find a source of great sadness, and frustration. Whatever we may say, or scoff a “fast Eddie”, that company has done more to project a positive role model and image, than the rest of the industry put together. (Despite them reminding me, at almost every twist and turn, of my favourite French clients Transports ONATRA , of whom, and their mixed fleet of Saviem, and Berliet, and their internal battles, and exterior wrangles that I set out to summerise tonight! Perhaps another day, a truly stupendous organisation, with all the parallels of “Fast Eddie”, and one whose annual reunions I am fortunate to attend. Bon Nuit mes amis, Im away to jambon et champignon, avec les pommes frites, and a large glass of Bollinger. Cheerio for now.

[gb1]

As mentioned:

[gb1]

And the later version:

[saviem]

Those poor quality cab conversions were produced by Stanley Road Garage! Amazing how the little grey cells work, at very odd times in my case! Cheerio for now.