Berliet

[saviem]

[zb]
anorak:
Merci beaucoup for another interesting response. Now, like the annoying child I once was (and still am), another question: Why was the kitchen-cab TR320 not marketed in GB (or was it)? Considering that the first TR280s came over here in 1975- the year every manufacturer and his dog was showing off their Middle East Specials- I would have thought that such a vehicle would make a great flagship, to draw attention to the marque.

Berliet- Citax, a Citroen company were the importers in 1975, based I think, down in Park Royal, London. Headed up by John Ansell, an ex Scammel man. They did have a Dealer Network, (of sorts), but not particularly strong. I think one of their strongest outlets was Gardiner Bros, down by the railway lines at West Drayton. As an importer, and considering what was happening with Berliet in France, I would expect that they operated with some difficulty!! So I would consider that the Lamberet kitchen option would have been way down, if not impossible to specify. Saviem, although weak in real volume terms, had an established presence via their Concessionaire Nickersons, based in Scunthorpe, (a sister company of Nickerson Oils of Leeds). They lost the Concession in 1975 to Saviem UK, who based themselves in the old Lex Tillotson premises at Trafford Park, Manchester. Ron Spears, ex Renault cars was MD, and my old colleague from Suresnes Daniel Laffly as assistant MD. (Daniel left in 1976, with the formation of Renault Truck and Bus, under Guy Caunegre, and set up a succesful business importing Lamberet Fridge trailers into the UK and Ireland).Back to lorry kitchens, at the 1975 Glasgow show Saviem exhibited a 340 V8 (or was it an SM280)? fitted with the same Lamberet kitchen pack! I really do not know if any were sold in the UK. It is important to remember that the Hire and Reward operators who were running M/E, did not comprise a volume market, however attractive the image was in terms of publicity, and a new importer did need volume sales to help establish his Dealer network. In Europe because of increasing traffic by French operators, particularly to Iraq, Saviem established a fleet of comprehensively equipped mobile workshops, on SM8 4x4 12tonne chassis. These were based in Turkey, and Iraq, specifically to support Saviem and Berliet product in the field. Co incidentally we had just landed some high volume fleet orders in Turkey, somewhere I have the details, but the old brain does not recall them at the mment, and I need to attend to the Hens, and the Horses, so, Cheerio for now.

[saviem]

Hello all, just to “flesh out”, the Saviem, Berliet, early RVI, Middle East support package ofthe mid to late 70s. 1975, under the direction of Andre Fonade, because of the volume of France- Iraq- Iranian traffic, (and here remember the strong Governmental ties with Iraq, a re-apraisal of the service function to support (initially), the Saviem product was called. The result was a chain of fixed service points at no greater distance from each other than 300kms along the main routes to the m/e. This was 20 strong, Bulgaria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran. Later with the amalgamation of Berliet, it grew to over60 fixed points. In Europe, Italy, Austria, obviously service points were closer together. In Austria mobile service was provided by very professional mobile service vehicles from Austrian lorry builder OAF. (the MAN connection again). There were six service points in Turkey, including Ankara, Sivas, and Erzincan, plus five mobile workshops, and a 30tonne mobile crane built on a Berliet GBH280 6x4 chassis. The mobile workshops were built on a mix of 4x4, and 4x2 SM8 12tonne chassis, fitted with bodies by Augerau, fully equipped with generators, milling machine, lathe, presses, welding equipment, hydraulic power tools, and just about everything else, including the kitchen sink. The crew compartment was comprehensive,including w.c. and shower. Capital value per unit was circ 60000FF. Did it work, well I do not really know, but I remember my clients Transports VIT, saying that support on the road was good, as did Chapuis and Stouff. Did any of our m/e contributors ever come across them?? Although this thread is Berliet, the mixing of Saviem and Berliet in the 70s is so complex that it is difficult to write of one without the other. Just imagine what it was like trying to work with the two ranges, let alone the splits, Gamme B, H, HM, TR, SM, et al. Hope I have not bored you, Cheerio for now.

[bigr250]

It was interesting to read in this weeks Commercial Motor that Berliet are credited with building the first high roof tractor unit with it’s ‘Centaur’ model, it goes on to tell us that this wasn’t available in the UK & that Volvo’s ‘Globetrotter’ was the first production ‘high roof’ truck.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Ross.

[zb_anorak]

No, Monsieur Saviem, you are not boring us! Where else would we find such fascinating first-hand detail on the history of commercial vehicles?

Certainly not the present incarnation of Commercial Motor, judging by bigr250’s reading of it. How can they say that Le Centaure was not a “production” vehicle, while the Volvo product was? I detect a Swedish guiding hand in their research. Last year, Big Lorry Blog ran a piece from their “tame” source within Volvo, who described the design process of the Globetrotter, supposedly as it happened. He referred to their innovative use of the space, normally wasted beneath a cab-top air deflector, being utilised to increase the interior volume of the cab, as if they had thought of the idea! There was no mention of the fact that Le Centaure had been in production for a year before the Volvo followed. Even the interior fittings of the two vehicles are similar, with the wood-faced cabinets etc.

[bigr250]

In fairness to CM ‘anorac’, they might have been refering to available in the UK!! I do wonder why the Centaur wasn’t sold in the UK as the Globetrotter was it’s self only available as a ‘left ■■■■■■’ until the ‘Highline’ facelift model came out, which is when the F10 ehgine was offered with the ‘Globetrotter’ cab.

I almost bought a Turboliner 365 myself when I was an owner driver in the late 80’s, I always thought the cab was business like with loads of room, I had always run Volvo’s myself but couldn’t (at that time) afford the premium a ‘Globey’ attracted in the used market. In fact this has always been a bone of contention to me, I once looked into buying a new F12 Globetrotter & in the quote, the extra cost of the big cab was £1,600 where a four year old F12 with the big cab usually attracted a £4,000 premium!!

To me, this made ordering a new truck without a Globetrotter cab a ‘fools errand’ when it actually saved you £2,400 over the life of the truck and you had all the extra space!!

Ross.

[saviem]

bigr250:
It was interesting to read in this weeks Commercial Motor that Berliet are credited with building the first high roof tractor unit with it’s ‘Centaur’ model, it goes on to tell us that this wasn’t available in the UK & that Volvo’s ‘Globetrotter’ was the first production ‘high roof’ truck.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Ross.

Evening all,Le Centaure, UK, rhd spec was shown at the1981 August NEC show, and was available from that time as a “for sale” item via the RT&B Dealer Network. (or the Karrier Motors Network, as if I remember correctly, Laurent Brissart had taken over as PDG, at the ex Dodge, Boscomore rd, Dunstable works, (just a shout away from the Bedford plant), and everything was centred there), I think that in France we had delivered into operators circ 300units, either full Le Centaure spec, or part spec, at that time. Certainly the ex Dodge people showed her with a Scammel box van painted up behind her. I expect if I look hard enough I will be able to find out how many, (if any), were actually sold, but off my head I do not actually know. bigr250, I agree with your comment regarding residual values on Globetrotters, in the Contract Hire, and Rental fleet that we ran back in the UK, in the late80s, I always overspecified the equipment to maximise on the residual value. I operated 10 F10 Globetrotters on an own account fleet contract. Unusual, but very acceptable, and they made strong money at 60months. All my short term tractors had sleeper cabs, night heaters etc, even if they had to be “fleet spec”, ie low cab, P, rather than R cab Scanias. Most own account operators would not rent a “higher specification” than they ran normally!Cheerio for now.

[chris_baron]

Hi ! This is the 1977 BERLIET TR 280 I was driving in 1985 . I was working for the Transports Aimé Roussel of Marconne, France.The fleet ,at that time, consisted on 2 Berliet TR280 like this, a Berliet TR 305 , a Berliet GLR 160 M3 Tipper rigid and a 1980 Renault TR 280. Both 280 and 305 were good motors…

[sammyopisite]

Hi Saviem , your post as brought a grey cell out of slumber as I went into a firm in St. Etienne who ran a lot of Berliet heavy haulage wagons 6x4 s and 6x6 s this would be in the early 70s as the first time was for a heavy route back up to Le Harve as the one I had was wrong and they were very helpful and after that we used to fuel up there as well but I cannot recall their name but they mostly heavy haulage as to what I saw in their depot was all low loader trailers. It is strange that you read something and it brings things back from so long ago.
cheers Johnnie

[saviem]

sammyopisite:
Hi Saviem , your post as brought a grey cell out of slumber as I went into a firm in St. Etienne who ran a lot of Berliet heavy haulage wagons 6x4 s and 6x6 s this would be in the early 70s as the first time was for a heavy route back up to Le Harve as the one I had was wrong and they were very helpful and after that we used to fuel up there as well but I cannot recall their name but they mostly heavy haulage as to what I saw in their depot was all low loader trailers. It is strange that you read something and it brings things back from so long ago.
cheers Johnnie

You know Johnnie the French had a way with Heavy Haulage, remember those Convoie Exceptionele routes? Used to wander all over the countryside, without any seeming logic. One night going back to my “digs”, just outside Pont LEveque, I met a Zucconi Willeme TG300 and girder trailer on a little D road, didnt know that a Renault 4 could fit through such a little gap, I can tell you that slowed me down a lot! The old Berliet TBO, either as a 6x4 or 6x6 was a front line tractor, in 5th wheel, or ballast form for many French Heavy Hauliers.Often working at up to 200tonnes. I have a photograph of a major move by Tpts Scalex, signed by all the drivers ,of “our” TBO 6x4, heading up a pair of “true” Willemes, a TG200 8x4, (180 tonne), &TG300 8x8 (300tonne) and Nicolas multi axle module with some “heavy bit” of the French Nuclear industry on board! I really rated the Willeme, and post 1970 PRP-Willeme heavy haulage machines. When knowledge that PRP were becoming a little under capatalised, I was involved from our offices in Suresnes, in a comprehensive market survey of the potential in the market place, and viability of the PRP Willeme product against its competitors. I cannot speak highly enough of the product, its design and engineering credentials were of the highest order, and its production cost most competitive. The reports were received favourably by our senior management, but then of course came our marriage with Berliet, and that was the end of that! Otherwise Saviem may have had a real rival to the UKs Scammell! Perez et Raimond, (PRP), struggled on to 1978, then Belgiums MOL acquired the design and manufacturing rights, and one sole TG appeared in Spain, shown as a Trabosa, but bearing the MOL symbol. Ive gone off thread again, sorry, (was that Stags yard where you drew derv, or was it Dessierer)? Cheerio for now.

[spardo]

Saviem:
[
You know Johnnie the French had a way with Heavy Haulage, remember those Convoie Exceptionele routes? Used to wander all over the countryside, without any seeming logic.

French policy is exactly opposite to the UK on the movement of abnormal loads. Unless absolutely unavoidable they are banned from autoroutes, I suppose they thought that if people are paying for the privelege of fast uninterrupted highways the least they could do is give them fast uninterrupted journeys.

Thus great big wide, long and heavy loads crawl through what to UK eyes are very unsuitable countryside and, I suppose, have to wind around quite a bit to avoid places that they simply wouldn’t get through. I do have one or two pics, I’ll see if I can sort them out, tomorrow maybe.

Could have done with a bit more of that when I rolled for Econofreight, trolleys with little wheels rated at well below the speeds motorway police escorts wanted us to race along at.

[pete_359]

hi all,
whilst heading for northants on friday night.i was amazed to see a loaded renault turboliner at monmouth lights,hadn’t seen one on the road for a good few years .
regards andrew.

[dieseldogsix]

Here you are Andrew, one a mate of mine had new.

[zb_anorak]

Here’s a question for those lucky drivers who have used both vehicles- how much better than that (above) was the Magnum, or indeed any of the later big-cab jobs? Was there significantly more space/comfort?

[pete_359]

Dieseldogsix:
Here you are Andrew, one a mate of mine had new.

hi cliff,
how are you mate?thanks for that one ,classic retro truck,i was amazed to see that one on friday night.
how is our mate wes doing?
regards andrew.

[spardo]

[zb]
anorak:
Here’s a question for those lucky drivers who have used both vehicles- how much better than that (above) was the Magnum, or indeed any of the later big-cab jobs? Was there significantly more space/comfort?

I only had the Turboliner for a few days and the Magnum for 3 years but was well impressed with both. Of course the Magnum had the completely flat floor and more up to date features like the cruise control, fold down passenger seat forming a table and one or 2 other advantages but if they hadn’t given me one within a few weeks of starting I would have been well pleased the Turboliner.

[saviem]

Evening all, long day, many acres, and Ive just put on the flail to do some roadside hedges tommorow, (start about 0700, just in time to get the “executive express” leaving the village in their new, (leased) White Range Rovers, and MBs! [zb],the KB was a very nice driving enviroment, and she was good to live with. The Magnum. (although I was a long way from working with them when she was launched), really took the “cab over” concept to new heights. But your question took me back to 1979, and the Truck magazine Eurotest, when “we” presented a TR305, fresh from the “Raid Economie”, (european economy run), for test. I think other contestants were, MAN 321, Foden Fleetmaster, (and what a good lorry that was)!Transcontinental, (Ford cocked that opportunity for good exposure big time), Scania 141,( no gentlemen, not the amazing performer that hindsight makes you imagine that she was)!and a Dodge (Barreros) 300 Series. (boy those Spaniards had had their a…s kicked for years by lousey US Chrysler management, now the French had arrived, with the take over by RVI, and they were fed up, and they were, and did show just how good their product could be), it really amazed us all !! So if I come back to to the subject of my memories, revived by [ZB]s question, my old friend, the late Pat Kennet, and I are leaning against a Belgian stone wall. Across the road, ticking, and pinging, as only a hard worked vehicle, finally at rest, can, sits "our "TR305, resplendent in shiny black, chrome, and silver. Pat is enthusiastic at her driveability, and cannot believe her quietness, and comfort, that cab was sensational in the 70s. The provisional economy is outstanding,and he is full of praise. But we have known each other for many years, friendship goes beyond brand loyalty, so our conversation is wide ranging. Pat knows I am not a Scania man, so he baits me a little, I regard the Dodge men, as real fighters, he agrees, Foden, I challenge him to criticise them, (knowing he will not)! Then I offer him a wager, giving him areas of the test route where the Man321 will eclipse everyone, he does not believe me. Two weeks later his telephone calls are chasing me around France, where the hell did I get the data■■? I was right, the MAN was sensational! But of course, I had been involved in the testing trials for the Saviem PS30, that is how I knew!!! But Pat, being Pat did not leave it there, oh no, he chased the RVI management, (and her network, remember when Bedford would not let Truck test a TM he eventually got one from the network)) for a PS30 to test. He did not get one! But one Friday, I was on the “carpet” big time in my bosses office in Venisseux, I had been disloyal to the new RVI! had I not learned that there was no more Saviem, or Berliet? It was Renault, and it would only be Renault!! And heavy tractors were, in European terms TR280, and TR305, TR356 only. Oh dear was I in the nasty stuff!! Two weeks later I had a new job! (if you are in the proverbial, but can do a good job, well you get “transfered”) I was up north, at Villiers-St- Frederic, the former test centre for Saviem, now nerve centre for our “assault” on the USA, with the midliner version of the Serie J. Another month, and there I was, in the US, alongside Mack, and what a learning curve that was to be!! Pat I really owed you for that, and those American operators had never in their wildest dreams experienced a cab enviroment as good as the Berliet KB, (or the Saviem MAN)!! Funny how the memories come back, Cheerio for now.

[riverstick]

Saviem:
Evening all, long day, many acres, and Ive just put on the flail to do some roadside hedges tommorow, (start about 0700, just in time to get the “executive express” leaving the village in their new, (leased) White Range Rovers, and MBs! [zb],the KB was a very nice driving enviroment, and she was good to live with. The Magnum. (although I was a long way from working with them when she was launched), really took the “cab over” concept to new heights. But your question took me back to 1979, and the Truck magazine Eurotest, when “we” presented a TR305, fresh from the “Raid Economie”, (european economy run), for test. I think other contestants were, MAN 321, Foden Fleetmaster, (and what a good lorry that was)!Transcontinental, (Ford cocked that opportunity for good exposure big time), Scania 141,( no gentlemen, not the amazing performer that hindsight makes you imagine that she was)!and a Dodge (Barreros) 300 Series. (boy those Spaniards had had their a…s kicked for years by lousey US Chrysler management, now the French had arrived, with the take over by RVI, and they were fed up, and they were, and did show just how good their product could be), it really amazed us all !! So if I come back to to the subject of my memories, revived by [ZB]s question, my old friend, the late Pat Kennet, and I are leaning against a Belgian stone wall. Across the road, ticking, and pinging, as only a hard worked vehicle, finally at rest, can, sits "our "TR305, resplendent in shiny black, chrome, and silver. Pat is enthusiastic at her driveability, and cannot believe her quietness, and comfort, that cab was sensational in the 70s. The provisional economy is outstanding,and he is full of praise. But we have known each other for many years, friendship goes beyond brand loyalty, so our conversation is wide ranging. Pat knows I am not a Scania man, so he baits me a little, I regard the Dodge men, as real fighters, he agrees, Foden, I challenge him to criticise them, (knowing he will not)! Then I offer him a wager, giving him areas of the test route where the Man321 will eclipse everyone, he does not believe me. Two weeks later his telephone calls are chasing me around France, where the hell did I get the data■■? I was right, the MAN was sensational! But of course, I had been involved in the testing trials for the Saviem PS30, that is how I knew!!! But Pat, being Pat did not leave it there, oh no, he chased the RVI management, (and her network, remember when Bedford would not let Truck test a TM he eventually got one from the network)) for a PS30 to test. He did not get one! But one Friday, I was on the “carpet” big time in my bosses office in Venisseux, I had been disloyal to the new RVI! had I not learned that there was no more Saviem, or Berliet? It was Renault, and it would only be Renault!! And heavy tractors were, in European terms TR280, and TR305, TR356 only. Oh dear was I in the nasty stuff!! Two weeks later I had a new job! (if you are in the proverbial, but can do a good job, well you get “transfered”) I was up north, at Villiers-St- Frederic, the former test centre for Saviem, now nerve centre for our “assault” on the USA, with the midliner version of the Serie J. Another month, and there I was, in the US, alongside Mack, and what a learning curve that was to be!! Pat I really owed you for that, and those American operators had never in their wildest dreams experienced a cab enviroment as good as the Berliet KB, (or the Saviem MAN)!! Funny how the memories come back, Cheerio for now.

If memory serves me correctly,Pat Kennet was full of praise for the TR 305…‘Glamour puss that works like a horse’…was how he described it and as you say,he was very impressed by the comfort and performance of the truck…in fact he said you didn’t realise the progress you were making with the TR305 because it was so quiet and smooth. That black Berliet looked well in shiny black…a chrome bumper and a hint of red accent here and there…and yes…I thought that cab was revealation in the late 1970’s as well.

[zb_anorak]

That was better than the magazine article itself. Here’s the proof, borrowed from the internet somewhere:

And now, the inevitable interrogation:
Was the PS30 a badge-engineered MAN 321, or did it have the same engine?
The 141 did not do too badly- its mph x mpg figure put it at the top of the group, if my reading of the blurry text is to be trusted. What intrigues me is that the writer says it ran badly and smoked a bit- was this due to the Swedish mechanics fiddling with the pump or turbocharger, in order to get a better result? Were all the trucks fiddled with? Please tell!

[windrush]

David Massey at Longcliffe, Derbyshire, has used Berliet/Renaults for many years on powder tanker, flat and tautliner work so he obviously rates them highly. Not been past for a while but he used to have a lot of worn out units in the yard which I assume he strips for parts to keep the others on the road, I guess that they did the job at a cheaper price than Volvo, Scania etc and he wouldn’t keep running them if there were reliability issues!

Pete.

[dieseldogsix]

Hi Andrew, Wes is ok and back at work. Cliff