Steve 
[zb]
anorak:
What was the difference between the 352ch TR350 and the 356ch one? Was the 356 the same as the later Renault R360?
Evening Anorak, forgive me, for I`m just into the Barn from a long (hot, 27degrees) day, and under threat as my tea is nearley ready for eating! So I must be brief.
Berliet ranges are a little complex! To try to simplify the V8s…but this is from memory!
TR300 12.7 litre 90 degree V. Not the best engine Berliet manufactured, but in its day…wow, all that power!
TR320 14.88 litre 90 degree V8 MIV 08 35 30 320 hp @2300, 115 m. kg torque @1500
TR350 14.88 litre 90 degree V8 MIVS 08 35 30 M (Magic…MAN design) combustion, initially @352HP, but then to cope with the Italian 8 BHP per tonne regs, (and those anticipated throughout Europe) delivered 356HP@2000rpm, (8.1 bhp @44tonnes) and 150 m. kg torque @1400 rpm.A maximum speed limiter, set at 1900rpm in 8th was an option…but never specified for the Italian Market, could those 356s go!!!
TR360 14.88 litre 90 degree V8 MIDR 08 35 30 Berliet designed combustion, 5 hole injectors, After Cooled, Shown for the first time at the 1978 Paris Salon,( with a design capability of 450HP), and 217m.kg torque @1400 rpm. Specific fuel consumption of 212 gramms per KW HR. A “clean”, and fuel efficient design. The first real “Maxi- Couple” V8
TR360"“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”
TR370"“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”
TR390 last version of the 08 35 30 V8 14.88 litre, introduced in 1985, charge and aftercooled, tuned pulsed inlet ports 390HP, but 1150 lb ft constant torque 1100/1950 rpm.
So the big difference between the 350s and the 360s, (and onward), was the fact that injection and combustion were Berliet designed, to create a Maxi- Couple, Hi torque rise engine, with low specific fuel consumption, but easy drivability. The 356s were beautiful to drive, but the 360 was in a different league, far more “driveable” than the Scania V8, Really just like surfing on poured cream, and more responsive to the throttle than the 17 litre Fiat.
But the Berliet, (Renault) Engineers aim was to provide a “light”, highly fuel efficient, driveable package. The 6 cylinder 12 litre 06.35. 40 was the result, which powered the TR305 initially, @ 300HP, &128 m. kg torque @1300 rpm. Ending up by 1989 as 360hp @1900, with a totally flat torque curve 128 m. kg @1300 rpm. With more to come, in terms of power and torque. And a nett saving in unladen weight of 760 plus kgs.
I am now right in the “dog house”, so must go for my tea…otherwise it will be in the Dog!!! I expect more coherent thought will come with a little Bollinger later…but for now
Cheerio!
“TR390 last version of the 08 35 30 V8 14.88 litre”
Was there not a 420 version of the V8 (with intercooler)?
I am quite sure they came in a few liveries, notably a bordeaux-red with ligh blue interior. They looked really smart in those days. I think Monsieur Michel or Mister Neversweat postes a pic a few days ago?
Then the R420 turboliner came out a few years later with straight-6 (itself an evolution of the R380, this same engine also to be found on the AE380/AE385/AE420, first generation magnum)?
I remember these R420s turboliners had AIR DISC written on the front wheel hubs. This would have been first-half 1990s…
Transports DOUMEN in Trelissac had a sizeable fleet of these, as did VIALLE in Thiviers and MIGOT and VERLHAC in Brive-la-Gaillarde…
Davidoff:
“TR390 last version of the 08 35 30 V8 14.88 litre”Was there not a 420 version of the V8 (with intercooler)?
I am quite sure they came in a few liveries, notably a bordeaux-red with ligh blue interior. They looked really smart in those days. I think Monsieur Michel or Mister Neversweat postes a pic a few days ago?Then the R420 turboliner came out a few years later with straight-6 (itself an evolution of the R380, this same engine also to be found on the AE380/AE385/AE420, first generation magnum)?
I remember these R420s turboliners had AIR DISC written on the front wheel hubs. This would have been first-half 1990s…
Transports DOUMEN in Trelissac had a sizeable fleet of these, as did VIALLE in Thiviers and MIGOT and VERLHAC in Brive-la-Gaillarde…
Yes Davidoff…I think you are correct. The R420 V8 was the first(?) series production truck(on the European scene at least) with air operated disc brakes on the front axle. I remember Truck magazine writing an article about. Not too sure of the year though.
Yes, Davidoff is correct, Neversweat posted a pic of an R420 V8 last Sunday. A team effort, this old-lorry history lark! I wonder if, had Renault not merged with Mack, the Berliet V8 would have been developed further, to power the Magnum?
Are there any TR320s or 350s in preservation? There are hundreds of 141s and F88/89s on the show scene, but very few of the other '60s/'70s supertrucks. Given the prices people are asking for worn-smooth, rotted-out Swedish restoration projects, I reckon a TR or a Unic V8, for example, would be the thinking man’s choice, if he wanted to preserve a bit of haulage history.
Some more Berliets here: camions-passion.net/t248-berliet
Morning all, Messieurs [zb] anorak / Riverstick / Neversweat, and other Berliet abiders!
Indeed this is a nice thread, to me it evoques pictures, sounds and smells of unburnt diesel long gone (remember when you had to open up all windows and doors of the garage on a cold start or you would simply be smoked out)
So, to respond to your posts:
The AIR DISC R420 I used to see was the later model “turboliner” (with the straight-six engine, badged R420 Ti). The 360-370-390-420 V8 series was called “turboleader” with the classic and beautiful eighties livery with the arrows. I don’t think I ever saw AIR DISC on those. Of course that does not mean that it didn’t exist. I do believe the air disc would have come out in 1989 or 1990, when the old Berliet-era finally (and sadly for us, carbon footprint lovers) V8 disappreared.
Would Berliet’s venerable V8 block have survived if Mack hadn’t shown up? I have no personal or technical knowledge of the matter, but one of my best friends currently manages Volvo trucks in Indonesia (so also includes Renault, Nissan and Mack), and through him I met a man who was at RVI at the time they had Mack’s V8 in the then AE. I did ask him the question about the Berliet block and why it hat not continued evolving. His answer was simple, it had come to the end of its evolution.
He cited various other cases:
- MANS’s V10 (really a Merc block) - started as the 19.502 somewhere in the 80s, and if I am correct ended up in the TG series with 660hp, but didn’t pass the conversion beyond EURO3 norms. It was then replaced with Man’s in-house V8 design (this I recently heard had in fact been co-designed with Liebherr, and incidentally did not make it into EURO6 so had a short lifespan)
- Volvo completely redesigned its 16 litre block when it evolved from F-series into FH, not much was left of the original block.
- IVECO’s venerable Turbostar V8 had a short spell as the Eurostar 520 but then disappeared as well, making way for the CURSORs
- And of course Scania’s 16-litre V8 has little in common with its 14-liter older brother except for the number of cylinders.
Put simply: according to him and in Renault’s eyes, Berliet’s V8 block had come to the end of its potential.
Are there many units in preservation? I know one or two personally, but I suspect there are many in fact. The good thing is that the French climate, especially in the Southern areas, is quite mild on bodywork, and so if you leave a vehicle standing under an open shed for 15 years, condensation will do some damage but the relatively dry spring/summer months will not alter it all too badly. I often drive through France (from my home around Geneva to the Dordogne where I was born, i.e. a diagonal tangent through the real countryside) and there are many vehicles still standing here and there which are not restored, just left aside and very occasionally called into action. , but could form a good base for restoration.
Here is a good example of the occasional barn find (forgive me for posting a SAVIEM, but occasionally a Berliet will turn up in the same condition): leboncoin.fr/utilitaires/497 … tm?ca=14_s
One thing must be said from a non-UK perspective: the Brits deserve credit for their ability and passion for restoring old vehicles, steam and diesel alike. There are some pockets of excellence on the continent but you Brits are a class of your own.
The community in France of those willing to spend time and money on these vehicles is just narrower. One thing to also consider: many of the Berliet / Saviem fitters from those days (those who truly knew those vehicles inside out) are now well into their seventies, if you catch my drift…
Cheers
David
Agreed- this is a superb thread. As an enthusiast of all old vehicles, I get a greater sense of intrigue about the more obscure, less well-known ones. For the price of 1000 Euros (plus the cost of the missing exhaust and radiator pipes), that SM340 is an absolute steal. It would be a far more attractive restoration project to me, than a 141, although I would concur with the consensus that the Swedish vehicle was the better of the two, in its day.
Regarding the preservation “movement” across Europe, I would respect the Dutch and German restorers, for example, at least as highly as the British. This impression may be coloured by the irrevocable truth that the grass is always greener in the next field, but the quality of some of those European restorations is beyond criticism. This brings me to Switzerland, home of the only two remaning van Eck-cabbed Vabis LVs, of which I am aware. One belongs to a Herr Schmidt and the other resides in the Setz museum. Judging by the photographs, those vehicles look like they have just driven out of the paint shop for the first time. As a “local”, have you ever been to see those lorries?
Hi again Mr Anorak
I must humbly admit that I was not even aware of their existence/presence in Switzerland. I must say that to my knowledge neither Herr Schmidt nor the Museum vehicle were not present at this year’s edition of Interlaken’s truckfest (where I took my 142 and had the pleasure of meeting up with a group of superb restorers and their treasured vehicles - 90% Brits btw ).
toprun.ch/truck/2013-07/Truc … index.html
[Mine can be seen in the background on page 18]
By the way, no SAVIEM nor BERLIET vehicle was present, nor in any of the former editions I have attended. Admittedly, neither make ever penetrated the Swiss market in style, the Swissies liked their FBWs and SAURERs too much.
However you stirred my curiosity. Would you perhaps happen to have Herr Schmidt’s details?
[Sorry gents, we are hijacking the Berliet nature of this thread a bit but I do believe we are not deviating from the generic topic of old diesel beauties. I think I might comment later on this SAVIEM ad but on the SAVIEM thread. It’s worth some discussions and views.]
I am currently in Minneapolis USA on a work trip, must go into a meeting before I had to the airport.
But let’s keep these French make threads live, they too deserve their space in lorries’ history, they did have their own unique charm!
Wow- that Interlaken festival will feature on a future trip of mine, that’s a certainty. Fair play to the British contingent, for making such a long journey (and for completing restorations which looked as good as anything else at the show).
I do not know where Herr Schmidt lives, but here is a link to a picture of his lorry at a show: flickr.com/photos/30797788@N03/8452068786/
Here is the other one:
picasaweb.google.com/MCBaden/Se … 2639262866
PS Your 142 looks smart, even alongside some of those wild creations in the show. I’m no great fan of custom trucks, but the creativity and workmanship of the builders of some of those vehicles is breathtaking. I thought the gun-themed Scania, in particular, was fabulously stylish.
A very interesting exchange Davidoff and [zb] anorak and some very nice links - Thanks
This is at a Motor Show - To what end I’m not sure
Steve
If I am not wrong (!), that was the TR300 launch at the Paris Salon in 1970. The aim was to demonstrate how easy it was to replace the engine and gearbox, with the then-new tilt cab. Given the initial unreliability of the 12.8 litre V8, I guess that Berliet would have been subject to some unwelcome ribbing about that display, from its competitors! The TR300 can’t have been that bad- I saw one in Britain, in 1980, so it would have been at least seven years old by then and its operator was still confident to send it abroad.
Hello again Gentlemen, now from Minneapolis-St Paul airport lounge.
Neversweat, I think (but may be wrong) that Monsieur SAVIEM mentioned something about this trade show some weeks/months back, or I read about it elsewhere.
IIRC it was about demonstrating the simplicity of putting the whole engine + gearbox combo back into the lorry, they did it within minutes.
Although it does not reflect roadside/urgent repair conditions, it certainly is a nice and clever way to ANIMATE a show, rather than having visitors just walk past vehicles on static display. I would have watched the operation three times and in full awe if I had been there - but back in 1978 I would have been about 3 years old so wouldn’t have had the option of deciding to stay 
.
The local Renault trucks dealer in Martigny, Switzerland (not Martini as some call it ) has a nice and very clean R370 (i.e. V8) with crane for local work. Some time back I was able to take a look when they had tipped the shed for maintenance. Amazingly accessible and functional. Certainly friendly for roadside repairs when compared to today’s vehicles. I think I have a pic somewhere, might post it sometime.
Interlaken: certainly interesting, but I am not sure I would again next year. You get to the place only to find yourself surrounded (locked in) by 1300 other lorries, all set up in close-knit groups, with their crews camping in or around their vehicles drinking beer all day. Note that most vehicles present are contemporary - apart from a few preserved/restored SAURERS the only oldtimers present were us and the Brits as featured on Toprun.
Also there is little animation around the lorries (you did have the country music festival but banjos are not my thing personally) and a disappointingly individualistic atmosphere overall.
Of course with the notable exception of the group displayed on Toprun’s photo show, the Brits were a really nice crew and we had a good laugh together.
Snap!
The trilex front wheels would suggest you are right on the date, [ZB].
I believe they were becoming less common towards the late seventies.
Davidoff please post the R370 photo when you can. I would be most interested
Steve
Neversweat, my beloved missus recently thought it was a good idea to apply her house-keeping skills to my bloody hard disk!!!
I can find nothing back.
I told her off in no uncertain terms but as usual after about one and a half minutes’ violent arguing she proved herself right and I could walk off according to the good old FIFO principle Fit In or eF Off.
When I get home tomorrow I will give it a dig and see if I get lucky.
This TR 305 is just in the preservation collection.
Davidoff:
Snap!
The trilex front wheels would suggest you are right on the date, [ZB].
I believe they were becoming less common towards the late seventies.
For once, I can back my outlandish presumptions up with documentary evidence:
Spot the mistake in the CM article- Berliet quoted its power outputs to the DIN standard, Saviem and Unic to SAE, making the TR300 about the same as the Unic 340 and about 40bhp more powerful than the SM300.
TRH in Australia.
A snowy TR 280 restored in France.
Owned by the Freret transport company in Normandy, this fine TR 305.
