Interesting that you talk about Berliet’s coming to NZ Saviem mate,that’s a new one on me I didn’t realize that there were any.
I know there were a few that made it to Oz,as you say through the Leader brand and that the heavy duty hub reduction was used on some heavy Leader’s.
Do you have any photos or more info about the Kiwi Berliet’s mate?
Evening all, michel, thank you for providing the photographs that due to the vagaries of my equipment, I am unable so to do. When, (and it is a big when, due to pressure of work on the farm), I move to my “new” office, I promise to update my equipment so that I can post my own photographs!! I have quite a reasonable colection, (and not all Saviem/Berliet!). But of course many are French, the classic marques, Bernard, Willeme, Somua, Latil, and of course Berliet.
The Stradair was truly a world beating design, and took lightweight lorries, and their design, to an advanced stature. Certainly the rest of Europes manufacturers never reached, (and even today), such a sophisticated design, the Stradair was a lorry ahead of its time. To drive one would be a real eye opener to many in the UK, even compared to current offerings!
NZ Jamie, thank you for your response. Now when I first was sent from Saviems factory at Blainville, near Caen in Normandy, to our offices in Suresnes, near Paris, (the old Latil works), and b… cold they were in winter! Being single status, and having an interest in where Saviem came from, after work, I would stay in the offices and just “turn over files”, and many interesting facts, (and photographs), came into my possesion! So of course when I was sent, (promoted)? into Marketing at Venissieux, I carried on digging…but I got into trouble…and big time!
The takeover/merger with Saviem was not popular, and I was classed as “Mr Saviem”…a spy! I disliked my company arranged accomodation in Lyon, in a block of concrete flats, I could not find a good Jazz club, or bar, and my only pleasure was training on my bike, but unlike Blainville, there was no Berliet Cycling club! So I used to stay after work, and try to research the past history and models of Berliet just to get a grip on their “culture”.Strange to relate, I found a whole section devoted to , “invitations to import”, whereby, hauliers, industrialists etc had asked Berliet to make available their lorries to a market that Berliet were not represented in.
The first that I found were the documents refering to Berliets first (post WW11) importer into the UK, DLS Motor Sevices, Cleckheaton, followed by Euro trux, of Rotherham. Both importing the "Relax Cab, M635 engined, 250 hp, ZF 6speed splitter. No records were available as to how many were imported. Then I found the Australian and New Zealand documents. New Zealand had received a small number, (four comes to mind), CKD kits, TRH 320, 6x4 KB24 cab, less engine and Gearbox, to be locally fitted with 8cyl V form Detroit, plus Eaton Transmission, (type unspecified). I was busy photostating said documents, when I was “discovered” by one of the fleet sales people. What subsequently transpired was just stupid…and I think I have eluded to just how vindictive and devisive the actions of many staff in the merger of Saviem and Berliet were, but I emerged relatively ok.But of more interest, somewher in my old files I have the photograph of the first NZ Berliet TRH 6x4, in factory grey, but with twin windows, (as the mod on the Australian Berliets). plus my photographs of the documentation…but for the life of me I cannot remember the importers name!! I promise that I will remember to find it out for you!
I personally, found it very hard at first, to "integrate " with Berliet. Remember, it would be like someone from , say Guy, being “popped” into Leyland, with a brief to make Leyland attack the market like Guy!!! Can you imagine the friction. Gradually, I earned my spurs, although it was not easy, the South of France was a very different working enviroment to Normandy! And of course some of my “initiatives” when with Saviem, had knocked holes in Berliets market share…oh deary me!
Somewhere on one of my posts I said that I thought the decision to market Saviem and Berliet as seperate marques after the “merger” was wrong. One event that I had planned whilst with Saviem was a "Tous Terrain " day at Vitrolles, in the South of France.(Not far from the Head Office of my favourite Fleet client Transports Onatra). The actual venue was a "Moto Cross complex at Walbacol, and I had invited Saviems subsidiary Sinpar, (who could turn anything into a 4x4, 6x6, or Front wheel drive, also our friends at Teihol with their “Rodeo” buggy, and bringing Saviems incredible SM8, and TP3s along my friends from SaviFrance Marsailles. So to delight the assembled potential clients from the Utilities, Fire Brigades, and Gendarmerie we had the following, a 4x4 4 GTL , a 4x4 4 van, a 4x4 Renault 12 estate car, a serie 6 Rodeo BUGGY, a jn90 4X4 9tonne, a JP11, 11tonne 4x4, several SM8 4x4, (eat your heart out Bedford, never have you seen such a fleible chassis), Plus TP3, and SPS tanker. Hospitality tents, driving opportunities etc.
To this , with the agreement of M Jean Mari Pesoni PDG of SaviFrance Marsailles I invited various members of Berliets management. They all turned up, and you can imagine driving cars and trucks on a Moto Cross course soon broke down the barriers, and people began to talk to each other. 21.06 78 was a good day, and the template for many others, (but not at Moto Cross courses, though to see M Delcluze, and M Teihol racing, (and all out at that), in respectivly aRenault 4 4x4, and a Teihol Rodeo was unforgetable).
Apologies if I have gone rambling on, things became better, and we began to work more closely…but the key was the exposure in the Press…now that is a whole different story, and I really did have fun there!! But its time for tea, and a small Bollinger…today the first Swallows came back, Im a happy man, they are a real delight, Cheerio for now.
Fascinating stuff Saviem. I hope you’ll continue in this vein!
Reminded me that, armed with my A level results, I was accepted for an apprenticeship at Leyland. My headmaster talked me out of it even though he knew I was truck mad. If only!!
Did you speak fluent French when you joined Saviem, Saviem?
Jazzandy:
Fascinating stuff Saviem. I hope you’ll continue in this vein!Reminded me that, armed with my A level results, I was accepted for an apprenticeship at Leyland. My headmaster talked me out of it even though he knew I was truck mad. If only!!
Did you speak fluent French when you joined Saviem, Saviem?
Evening all, thanks for your kind comments Jazzandy. I never got as far as A levels, and the exam results that I gained were pitiful! But I was a very keen racing cyclist, and used to follow the exploits of the European riders avidly, plus our own men, Robinson, Hoban, Ramsbottom et al. Then every holiday I was away, cycle touring, but each day ridden as “bit and bit”, flat out! In those days open road road racing was illegal, only time trials in the UK. So I used to devour French, and Belgium newspaper reports. So I suppose that gave me an insight into French as a language, (but with quaint pronunciation).
I started driving lorries, (illegally), for my mothers family in Shropshire. Then came the opportunity to deliver into France for one of my Uncles Medical clients, and because they thought I could speak French, well I got the job, and I cannot express how much I enjoyed it, like watching a travel film unrolling through the little Fodens windscreen! And at every opportunity I would mix at mealtimes with French drivers, and always carried a poster from a French magazine of Raymond Pouilder, (the eternal number two behind Jacques Anquitil), and that opened so many “difficult” doors for me on my travels!Forward a few years, and competition started to cut the earnings, I was courting, and needed a better income.
So I became a “junior salesman” for a Black Country dealership, then a few years later I was headhunted by the local Volvo outlet. But I wanted to do more for my new family, and having been less than impressed by the ability, and understanding of the customer, I started writing to vehicle manufacturers seeking employment…I may have well not bothered, Leyland, (my lack of education would preclude employment), Most did not reply, GM, Dodge,the independants, nothing doing! Then I got a reply from Mercedes Benz at Borham Wood, (I had written to Stuttgart), and I was invited for an interview. I attended, and the first thing said, was to complement me on my initiative,…but my letter was the worst spelt that the interviewer had seen!! I was mortified, (and my lack of spelling ability is still with me today, (although now, well I just do not care)!
So with my new wifes agreement I wrote to MAN, Saviem, and Berliet, respectively in English, and in the latter two both (quaint) gramatical French, and English. Amazingly I was invited to interview both in Germany, and France! Excitement cannot describe it, the first interview was at the old Latil, (now Saviem) works at Suresnes. Honour bound I could not go in my company Corsair 2000E, so I "borrowed " my wifes basic 850 Mini. And as you will appreciate my journey was horrendous, and I was late. My interviewer was a man from Alsace, Claude Mourier, and most of the interview was conducted in a mixture of French, and English. I was not to know that he would be my boss for a good number of years, (and through many adventures)!
I was employed as “assistant”, if only I knew what that implied, and my induction was 6weeks working “on the line” at the old shipyard at Blainville, and in a rather long winded way I have arrived at the answer to your question jazzandy…that is where I really learned to speak my French!!!..Rather like an immigrant to the UK learning English in Bilston, colourful, but you get your point across!!! No, I was by no means fluent, but I had to learn quickly!
Then followed over a decade of work, and I learned and mastered business management techniques that I would have never learned in the UK. M Mouriers trust in his “gut feeling” gave me an incredibly interesting time, Ireally hope that I justified his trust in me.
It gave me one thing, years later running our own businesses, I always look at the person, not the CV, and I have had superb people work with us, and I value their friendship and memories today!
Thanks for sharing this Saviem. Sound as though you’ve had a fascinating life. I think we should start a
‘How I became a truck driver’ thread. When I was on the road I met an extraordinary array of drivers who
had come from all walks of life. The strand that united them, I feel, was an independence of spirit, men
who wanted to control their own destinies, square pegs often who could not have settled down to the ‘9to
5 do-what-you’re-told’ grind.
Jazzandy:
Thanks for sharing this Saviem. Sound as though you’ve had a fascinating life.
I think we should start a ‘How I became a truck driver’ thread.
When I was on the road I met an extraordinary array of drivers who had come from all walks of life.
The strand that united them, I feel, was an independence of spirit,
men who wanted to control their own destinies,
square pegs often who could not have settled down to the ‘9to 5 do-what-you’re-told’ grind.
I agree wholly Andy, and it is that very independant spirit which of course put us at a disadvantage
when faced with the unified dictatorship of certain unions.
BTW could some mod please come along and straighten this thread?
The distortion is confusing my poor old eyeballs.
A tip till it’s done is for posters to use short lines. 
)
Spardo:
BTW could some mod please come along and straighten this thread?
Fat chance. The thing goes over-width if someone puts a big phot on. The stupid border on the left gets stupidly wider as well.
The only way to solve it is to get the thread onto a new page, so here goes:
Saviem:
… This reached its redesigned production in 81, as the MIDR 06 20 45, the 15mm increase in stroke giving additional Torque output. For a 9.8litre engine the power at 260hp was modest, but the trick was that the engineers at Saint Priest had given the engine the “fuel free” run off between 1950revs, and 2200revs, (the maximum), a trick never ever mastered by ■■■■■■■ or any other "high torque rise engine manufacturer. They had given a “little” 9.8litre all the driveable characteristics of its big 12litre sister, a true “maxi couple” design. …
I am interested in how these “high torque rise” engines were engineered. If I remember correctly, the ■■■■■■■ Custom Torque 220(?) was simply an NTC290 with the fuel delivery restricted at high revs. Nevertheless, the turbo was the same, so there was more excess air being pumped at those engine speeds than was necessary. I may be wrong. The first engine of the type, the Mack Maxidyne (1967), was done in a more clever way, I think- using some combination of turbocharger and fuel pump, to achieve the goal. I guess Berliet had some of the same thinking.
Another 16 posts to go, and we’ll be back at 2.5m wide.
don,t no much at all ,but scania fitted a smaller turbo on the14 litre ,giving faster and better respons in lower revs ,volvo did it whit wastegate to not owerblow ,think it,s about enoug air fast in low rew,s and you can cut out he not nessesery rev,s in the top ,simply !, but don,t ask carryf only big cyl capasity do torqe, cheers benkku
bma.finland:
don,t no much at all ,but scania fitted a smaller turbo on the14 litre ,giving faster and better respons but don,t ask carryf only big cyl capasity and plenty of them do torqe, cheers benkku
Fixed that. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartsila-S … of_2008.29
A Scania 730 would need to put out around 5,000 nm of torque at 204 rpm to match the specific torque of that. 
Evening all, before we travel down the road of detailed “rivet counting”, regarding mechanical design, perhaps it would be polite of me to request your indulgence, that I may set the overall picture, and in particular to the engineering of the products in some form historic context.
Saviem, had been created from the Governmental merger of the lorry and bus interests Renault, Latil, Somua,and Floriat in 1955. Despite having the licence to manufacture Gardner engines, (as did Bernard), through Latil, it was felt that a Franco German alliance was necessary, in terms of reciprocal market opportunities, and in 61 such a deal was struck with Henschel. This was short lived, and was replaced by a similar deal with MAN in 63. This along similar lines, and of 25years duration. The collaboration saw MAN engines being utilised in “heavier” Saviems, with the 4cylinder 720, and 6cylinder 797, and turbocharged 798 designs being manufactured for all markets at Saviems Limoges engine plant. The state of the art (in 64) Saviem cab being utilised by both marques, (by MAN long after the creation of Renault Vehicules Industriels in 1975) and the lighter “Club” , (870, 872, 875), version also appearing on Volvo, Magirus Deutz, and DAF lightweights, (not forgetting the French built Macks for the US market). Saviem therefore was both an assembler, and manufacturer in its own right, producing Engines, axles, and gearboxes, as well as utilising “bought in components”, by MAN Eaton, ZF, CAV, & Bosch as well. To "unify " the identity of Saviem products irrespective of their original origin, all vehicles were delivered ex factory, finish painted in “Saviem Blue”.
Berliet was the dominent French producer of commercial vehicles. A"vertically integrated " manufacturer, (but also using bought in components for some ranges, ZF, Perkins, CAV, Bosch, and not least MAN combustion design patents, marketed as “Magic”, M serie, to replace those of Ricardo). I will not dwell on Berliets troubled history post WW11, and the incarceration of M Paul Berliet for collaboration. The Governmental control, incorporating a sizeable influence and shareholding for the Communist CGT Union, the eventual reinstatement of Paul Berliet as PDG, of Berliet, the global expansion of Berliet into markets where assembly/manufacturing plants were established, eg China, Algeria, South America, Morocco . It is really interesting at this juncture to compare the aims of Paul Berliet, heading up the major French lorry manufacturer, and Donald Stokes, heading our own Leyland. Paul Berliet wished to expand by creating indidginous MANUFACTURING companys, Donald Stokes, by creating ASSEMBLY companys. One cannot help but realise that M Berliet, and Sir Ian Black at AEC shared a similar “planetary” theory! Renault Vehicules Industriels still manufactures product throughout the World!
By the mid 60s Berliet was struggling for working, and development capital, then along came salvation in the shape of Michelin, through its Citroen subsidiary. The first born was the revolutionary Stradair lightweight, the worlds first fully air suspended lorry, with some versions having front wheel drive as well. (To demonstrate its stability, public tests were staged, where a chassis cab was driven at 50kph up a ramp, launching itself into the air, and upon landing was driven around a brief chicane…so whats new with the RoadRunner Mr Leyland. Then there was the 12 serie, (as Anoraks brochure) with the 135 40 engine at 240hp. But with this engine the engineers at Venissieux had started to explore the hi torque rise theory. Topped by the conservative styled, but quiet and comfortable “Relax Cab”. Then came the K, and KB ranges,from lightweights to 26tonnes, mainly fitted with the BDSL gearbox. Berliets range was enormous, over 120 vehicles, plus variants, and unsurprisingly by the 1973 oil crisis Berliet, and Citroen were in financial trouble.
Somewhere on this thread I have documented the macinations that bought Berliet under the control of the Regie Renault in 1975, to prevent Berliet falling into “Foreign” hands, (the suitors being Volvo, and Fiat, (Iveco) who already owned France`s Unic, and were rapidly turning it into an assembly, and engine plant for the Iveco group.
What to do with the two individual companys, who together accounted for over 50% of the national market? (Personally I learned very early in my career in France to take a healthy distrust of French Governmental figures, having spent to the early hours of one morning trying to complete a ratio analysis of a certain market sector…and constantly finding that the added market shares equalled over 150% of that market! Not a bit like the uks SMMT statistics based on “true” registrations!
Well first get some overall management in place. And here the French scored a spectacular goal!! They appointed an enigmatic little Corsican, Francoise Zanotti, as President Director General. Suffered fools badly, could empathise with a worker on the line, a lorry driver, the Fleet owner, the head of a Corporation…a man with incredible interpersonal skills, and a great communicator, who told it like it was, bad or good. The politicians hated him, because he exposed their incompetence without fear, and in the main his decisions were right for the corporate body. Eventually they got him, but he lasted untill 1983, and under his stewardship RVI was created, and some of its best engineering and design work took place. Every single person in RVI felt that they personally reported to him, so charismatic was his influence within the company.
Paul Berliet, although having no real “executive” responsibility within RVI carried the title Vice President, and what an incredible asset he was on the World stage. Freed of corporate responsibility he did what he was great at, projecting the company, and its products on the world stage.
The “iron fist within the velvet glove” was wielded for Zanotti by M Grobb Director General of RVI, (a man whose urbane charm was not to be underestemated, for he was a diplomatic “street fighter”, and only ever won!
Now the chaos! As both companys were to remain separate, as were their networks in he field ,there were two Commercial Directors, Georges Danton for Saviem, and Andre Perry for Berliet. So we started knocking chunks out of each others market share, and thereby losing both theoperators confidence, and even more sadly that of our Dealers. Thereby opening the doors to Mercedes, Volvo, Scania, and even bankrupt Pegaso. But the biggest winner was DAF.
Just as an example by 1977, just before sanity finally was knocked into the faceless Governmental officers , in France we could offer our clients the choice of the H serie, either as a 35/38tonne Saviem, HL, or Berliet, HB. Both with a list of circ FF 20000. Both carried the Saviem Type 870 series Club cab, (stretched in length and width over the F series Volvo version, but slightly lower, but both with four (dim) little rectangular headlights in the bumper bar. The Saviem version having the 11.4litre MAN 266series, (R6T) with a Saviem S690 12speed splitter box, and Saviem P1332 double reduction axle. ready for the road at 6000kgs (sleeper) The Berliet having a MIDR 06 20 30 at 185 hp DIN, BDSL 12speed and Berliet 18M axle, a shade under 6tonnes in sleeper form…Now where is the sense in that as a marketing platform for the group? Oh by the way “we”, (both marques), lost sales to Volvo and DAF. Then there was the Berliet Serie B, (which I have already described in a previous post). To replace the K and KB series. Simply a rebadged Saviem serie J rigid range.
But lets return to the engineering, Citroen had put a brake on R&D, due to cash constraints, in 76 the brake came off. The Engineers at Venissieux had already gone a long way to developing the 135 40 12 litre, into the fully fledged 06 35 40 maxi couple 12litre, which eventually saw the demise of the 14.88 litre V8, (but never had the musical exhaust note of the V8,…or that magic carpet surge of creamy torque…like surfing on a rolling sea of creamy Yoghurt!!) But the sensation waiting for cash to develop it was the 9.8litre 06 20 30, which eventually led to Europes most economic engine of the 70s and 80s, the 06 20 45 turbo intercooler. But engines were not the only recipient of RVIs new cash, a new gearbox plant was built at Boutheon, where the B series 9 and 18 speed boxes were designed and built with robot manufacture techniques, the Robots again of RVI design from the Regie`s subsidiary ACMA-Cribier near Pontoise. Founded in 1945 by Rene Cribier, and up to1977 run by Georges Louis, (ex PDG Saviem engine plant at Limoges). Cribier also automated the Kamaz truck plant in Russia, and the Renault subsidiary factories in Czechoslovakia, as well as Renaults French car plants. So the foundations were being laid for a whole new range of products.
What did it cost…not a lot in relative industrial terms, if we look at 1978, a total state subsidy into RVI of 1.4billion francs, approx £120million at comparative rates,…pretty modest in relation to what the UK Government were supporting Leyland by at the same time. And over 3% of the combined group turnover was going to support R&D at that time, positive investment.
1977, and the first common sense, all RVI subsidiaries, Saviem and Berliet were re named Renault, (in the UK Berliet-Citax, and Saviem UK became Renault Truck and Bus UK ltd, under Ronald Spears, MD, and my colleague Daniel Laffly from Paris). But the common branding of the products, and the corporate rebranding, (and blood letting), did not take place untill 1981, (with all of its advantages and disadvantages).
So Gentlemen Ive tried to precis a rather long story, but that is how RVI and Renault trucks came about , and the context in which they were managed. I`m getting long in the tooth, so can look back with perhaps more objectivity than passion, and enjoyment at my modest part in it all. Overall,despite some spectacular ■■■■ ups, perhaps one of Europes more succesfull attempts at creating a national manufacturer. But one thing is without doubt, those Berliet,and Saviem men were “proper” engineers!!!
My Bollinger, and a chicken salad are calling, and the rain is watering everything well tonight…Cheerio for now.
Brilliant post Saviem, thank you.
gingerfold:
Brilliant post Saviem, thank you.
Seconded
Saviem - Did you ever come across either Dave Grundy or Ray Graham from Renault Truck and Bus U.K 
Cheers
Steve
neversweat1:
gingerfold:
Brilliant post Saviem, thank you.Seconded
Saviem - Did you ever come across either Dave Grundy or Ray Graham from Renault Truck and Bus U.K
Cheers
Steve
Evening all, Gentlemen thank you for your kind comments, it is appreciated. I really just wished to set the Groups foundation, and method of operation accurately. Some time ago there was a article on Berliet in Heritage Commercials. It was so inaccurate in both content, and emphasis, that I complained…never had a reply, so do not waste my money on the book! Therefore I try to be objective and accurate, but with a personal slant in my posts.
Steve, sorry, I do not know the names, did they work for Barry Gibson on After Sales? Barry answered to Jean Paul Nivollet, a superb engineer who understood the vital role of after sales, (parts and service in unison), that is how you sell lorries. Jean Paul followed me to Renault Veicoli Industriali, in Italy, and was succeded by Bernard Momin when his time in the UK was up…bit like a game of musical chairs really!!
Well its been a long wet day on the fields, so Im away for my Bollinger and tea, Ta Ta for now.
