fubbysboy:
Saviem:
Evening all, I wondered if there would be any interest in this thread. Seems that there is, so may I add a few bits of “trivia” surrounding Centaure. Berliet, although technically dominating the domestic French market, was in the early seventies suffering from a “grande malaise”, similar to our own Leyland group. Too many production sites, (both in France, and overseas), gross over staffing, lousy management decisions, (being owned by Groupe Michelins Citroen Division, not renowned for their forward thinking! and a confused model line up, which did contain some gems, (the medium weight “Stadair” fully air suspended, low height chassis. and of course the new heavyweight cab on the TR ranges. Berliet had launched a high reving 12litre V8, which just like our own AEC V8, had a propensity to explode!! This was being re engineered, but Citroen, (Michelin), wanted out. First suitor was Fiat, (soon to found Iveco), who already owned Unic), then on the scene came Volvo! Panic in Paris, would be a understatement! French jobs would be at risk, (and lots of them), Government decided that Berliet would become part of the “Regie” Renault. A government controlled group of companies, that would bring together Saviem and Berliet. 1975 it all began,Berliet needed an image, and that is just how Le Centaur came into being, a flagship, but what a flagship! The “new” V8, 16litre capacity, nominally 320 (DIN) hp. Berliets engineers had been redesigning its engines on a “high torque rise principal”, as the revs go down, the torque ramps up. Add turbocharging and in its day (1977) a pretty sensational package, 356hp and creamy torque output. Then add a hi roof from quality trailer and bodybuilder Lamberet a lyon neighbour. with a luxury car quality trim interior, oodles of chrome, extra lights and a well thought out paint job, wow, she was a sensation at the Paris show, and also more importantly on the road. They sold, so well that a special line was set up, if I remember correctly over 400 of the V8 Centaures were produced, and the cab option was available on other TRs, tractor and porteur. Stunning marketing added to the image, Centaur featured in TV and Cinema, remember France had “discovered” her routiers, and the population was interested in the industry. Centaures legacy was the Turboliner cab, in standard production. The only Centaure to come to GB was mounted on a TR 305, 12litre chassis. Who bought it, I do not know, but I seem to remember that the Dodge people coupled it to a Scammell box van trailer for demos. The V8 really was a dream to drive, and the standard of fit and finish were exemplary in the Centaure cab, including the “shower”, that in the shots showing “Monique” grab so much attention. Last bit of trivia, she was English! a former dancer at the Crazy Horse in Paris, and later married the head of the agency who handled the shots. Now a very attractive grandmother of four, and living in a rather swish suberb of Paris. Bon Chance mes amis, Cheerio for now.
Bewick:
I realise the motor hasn’t a Berliet badge on the fron’t !!! A summer evening Milnthorpe depot,late 70’s and one the night men is sat filling in his tacho prior to his trunk to Daventry and back.IIRC we ran this demo for a few weeks and were not impressed.But it was a bit of “free gratis” running apart from DERV,it did the job on double shift but at the time we were going heavily into Scanias and the Renault/Berliet was not in the same class,as far as we were concerned.Sorry Saviem but that was the proof of the pudding as far as we were concerned. Cheers Dennis.
Here are 2 Berliet’s Registered 1979. 784V 785V Hallmark Transport Milton Keynes added to My Dad’s Fleet is was only 14 then but i Remember them being a real eye turner back then.
We Ran them mostly to Barcelona via Santander . J.Hall
Evening Gentlemen, did any of you know that “we” produced a middleweight lorry with a Berliet badge, but a chassis made by BMC? And quite a few were made.
Or, many lightweights were engined by Polly Perkins.
Or, tractors powered by air cooled Deutz engines.
Fascinating company Berliet.
Back to my rolling…hey ho…hey ho.
Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Evening Gentlemen, did any of you know that “we” produced a middleweight lorry with a Berliet badge, but a chassis made by BMC? And quite a few were made.Or, many lightweights were engined by Polly Perkins.
Or, tractors powered by air cooled Deutz engines.
Fascinating company Berliet.
Back to my rolling…hey ho…hey ho.
Cheerio for now.
I sincerely trust you are not sat in the Air-con,soundproofed JD cab rolling a “spliff” “Saviem” Tut tut !! Surley the CAP gravy train hasn’t dried up yet and you are forced to take drastic measures such as this !! Then again you could be just swinging around on the headland with your 30 foot wide set of rollers to tackle the next 30 acres !! Bewick.
Hi Dennis, no stone cold sober…but so much to do, and so little time!!
Real vehicles, nothing dreamed up…but just on the way back for some (expensive) go go juice, I thought of another…especially for our "pal"from Leatherhead loonie bin,…
which Berliet model was fitted with a Detroit, from new??
Back to the rolling, hey ho, hey ho!
Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Hi Dennis, no stone cold sober…but so much to do, and so little time!!Real vehicles, nothing dreamed up…but just on the way back for some (expensive) go go juice, I thought of another…especially for our "pal"from Leatherhead loonie bin,…
which Berliet model was fitted with a Detroit, from new??
Back to the rolling, hey ho, hey ho!
Cheerio for now.
GXO and GPO oilfield lorries
Steve
MaggieD:
Riverstick:
MaggieD:
All the Renault guys were helpful, I ran about 20 G290/310/340/365/Turboliners & Magnums at one time Happy Days ! Also a Saviem which had a whistle that sounded like Concorde coming into land when the turbo was singing.Regards
RichardHi Maggie D,
Did you get good service from your Renaults. A very under rated truck which gave excellent service…just my humble opinion…
I do remeber the turbo whistle from those French Saviems…very pronounced and characteristic…
Hi Steve,
I certainly remember Trevor and the ■■■ ash I recall myself,Peter Tilbury and him standing in Peter’s office,Trev smoking like a chimney trying to wangle through a warranty claim,and Peter with his shoe on the desk glueing the sole back on Happy Days !
Colin Harvey that’s the chap well done. I also met Arthur a few times I think he was on one of the Lyon trips to the factory.
My Renaults gave excellent service,they ran all over Europe and the UK, the drivers liked the comfort of the Turboliners & Magnums.
Regards
Richard
That conjures up a hell of an image Richard
Steve
neversweat1:
Saviem:
Hi Dennis, no stone cold sober…but so much to do, and so little time!!Real vehicles, nothing dreamed up…but just on the way back for some (expensive) go go juice, I thought of another…especially for our "pal"from Leatherhead loonie bin,…
which Berliet model was fitted with a Detroit, from new??
Back to the rolling, hey ho, hey ho!
Cheerio for now.
GXO and GPO oilfield lorries
Steve
Hi Neversweat1,
Did any Berliets survive in the UK?
Riverstick:
neversweat1:
Saviem:
Hi Dennis, no stone cold sober…but so much to do, and so little time!!Real vehicles, nothing dreamed up…but just on the way back for some (expensive) go go juice, I thought of another…especially for our "pal"from Leatherhead loonie bin,…
which Berliet model was fitted with a Detroit, from new??
Back to the rolling, hey ho, hey ho!
Cheerio for now.
GXO and GPO oilfield lorries
Steve
Hi Neversweat1,
Did any Berliets survive in the UK?
I don’t know for sure Riverstick but i’d be very surprised if any have
Steve
Evening all, for those who may be interested, the type 6055N, a hybrid bonneted rigid 12 tonne, BMC powered, and chassied , but Berliet bonneted cab, and badged, and marketed. Produced by Berliet Morocco.
Polly Perkins engines in the Beliet type, GAK, GBK, and GCK, models, 1958 on… 6cyl 4.7litre, 89hp. Then came the K series with 4.236 4cylinders 1974 onwards.All for the European market .
Berliet designed tractors and rigids with the KB24 cab, (TR type), fitted as standard with Deutz air cooled diesels, produced by the Berliet designed SONACOM factory at Rouiba, Algeria. (over 60,000 produced in total.)
Berliet Detroit, now this is interesting. The first Berliets into Australia were imported by the then owner of the Mack concession…but they were pure Berliet, and only six of them, all double drivers, and they ran well. However Berliet was in financial trouble at this time and in reality did not exploit the potential of the market. But from these vehicles came the contract that saw Berliet sell Australias only real domestic lorry manufacturer, Leader, the majority of its drive axles.
Detroit was specified as the engine for the first Berliet TRs sold into New Zealand, assembled from French CKD kits , and again due to circumstance , a market not fully developed.
Fascinating company Berliet, and great engineers,…did you know that it was once part owned by a communist Trade Union?
A bientot, Cheerio for now.
Sorry Saviem but the GBK and GCK never had Perkins engines.Only the GAK 4,later GAK 50 had the P6 engine.
Evening all, michel, you are totally correct, I became carried away with the "G"s!! Yes the GAK, had both the 6cylinder, and later the 4.236 Perkins engine fitted.
Yet at the back of the Foundry at Venissieux, and very abused, there were two GCKs, both tippers, and both with a 6cylinder Perkins engine, but one with a FBV 5speed box, and the other a 6speed plus splitter BDSL box. Would have been fascinating to know how they came to be built to such a specification, and what was the original purpose in the design. The bulk of the works lighter weight “internal” fleet seemed to comprise the 5cylinder 160hp GCKs , or the little 4.236 Perkins powered K560 7.5tonners. Nowhere did I see any examples, (at Venissieux, or Saint Priest), of the revolutionary Stradair full air leaf suspended back and front, front wheel drive, transverse engined, (and some examples again had Perkins 4.236 installed), bonneted lightweight. Reputed to be the first ever totally air suspended lorry, a product of Citroens first collaboration with Berliet in 1967, and such an ugly design, that the more you look at it, the more attractive it becomes!
But thinking about it, I did not arrive at Venissieux untill 1975, so most Stradair`s would be “getting on a bit”, but there was one in use at the test circuit at La Valbonne, as a water tanker. I only ever drove one Stradair, at our Dealership at Nancy, fitted with a little tipping body, and despite a few years hard work, what a delightful little lorry to drive.
Thinking back Berliets range of vehicles in the mid 60s, to 70s was enormous, (and totally confusing), if I remember correctly over 120 basic types, plus derivatives…phew! The quality of the engineering design was without doubt, but the final assembly quality, well it was not up to Swedish standard!
Following the merger between Saviem and Berliet, and then the creation of Renault Vehicules Industriels, the drive was on to improve both the quality of design and engineering, and finished product quality. The budget for Research and Development was freed from constraint, so much so that by 1980, it stood at 3.4% of Group RVI turnover…and that in European and World lorry manufacturing terms was big!
One of the sources of funding through various boards for the Nationalised RVI was the Ministry of Industry, and in particular its Energy Saving operation. As France is a net Petroleum importer then the drive for fuel efficiency was paramount. Test facilities, in particular for engines were in operation at Saint Priest,Suresnes, Saint Ouen, (the latter two being ex Latil, and Somua), and if I remember correctly amounted to some 8000sq metres 58 test cells, 2 cold rooms, 12 special test cells, accoustic cells, friction rigs, with a total staff of 1700 on R&D, including 190 senior test engineers, and 80 “area specific” engineers. The operation was using “CAC” design techniques, (Conception Assisted par Computer).
And what did they do? Well produced one complete test prototype per week, covering all aspects of vehicle design and engineering. Testing, and evaluation took place at the test facilities at La Valbonne, a 50 hectare site on the Geneva road, Saint Cyr, (mainly thermal and aerodynamics),Bourges, for climatic testing, Crucey, near Dreaux, brake, and PSVs, and Villiers Saint Fredrick, 30ks from Paris , (mainly on the Mack project), Blainville, and Saint Priest itself.
What did they achieve?, the most fuel efficient engine of its age in the 12litre 06 35 40,( grams per KW /Hr), which would eventually lead to the demise of the V8, 14.88litre , the "new " small block range, and their incredible economy, the possibility of reliable disc brakes on lorries,and of course the Project Virage, which gave us the Magnum,…plus many many soundly engineered options.
I still feel a great degree of pride in having worked in the company of the Berliet people, very different from my background in the UK, but superb lorry people. I remember the words of Jean Thiery, Head of R&D, in conversation at dinner one night, "our objective must be to be one step ahead (of the market) at all times, but remember, a product is always a compromise between the wishes of the sales department, (and what the market place wants), and what technical possibilities we in R&D can prove reliable, and put forward to satisfy, (reliably) those wishes " Very clear, and very correct!
Im away to my tea, and a large Bollinger, (untill I get my new office, this bit of barn is rather cool, and it has been a long day, many acres succesfully sown with spuds,a good day, but there is more work for the Sabbath! Cheerio for now.
Interstingly, a retired owner driver dropped off a trailer at our workshop a few days back. Whilst chatting, he told me he remebers in 1976 driving a 40ft fridge with a Mandator into Slaney Meats in co.Wexford. He was approached by Jim Somers who took him over to a small assembly hall and showed him these new French trucks call ‘Berliets’. He was persuaded to give up his job, buy the Berliet TR280 for £12,000 and set up as an owner driver.
He drove all over Europe with his TR280…very comfortable and reliable. The only problem it gave, was an appetite for alternator rectifier packs, mainly due to the fact, in the conversion to RHD, the altenator was remounted close to the exhaust manifold, and had a tendancy to overheat. overall, he rated it as a brilliant truck. When he wanted to change in 1980, he wanted more power and decided on a Volvo F12. He still reckons the Berliet was ahead of its time and would have bought another if more horsepower was available.
Another great insight Saviem - Thanks - Whens the book coming out There was a BDSL gearbox fitted In the TF231 which had 6th high “inhibited” - It used to crack the rear of the gearbox quite frequently - Quite a short wheelbase with a hell of a propshaft angle on it. Without the 6th high inhibitor it was an “off the clock” machine
Steve
Evening all, well all of the “spuds” are in, (even if we have had to have the help of a contractor crew to do it…thanks Stewart and family), so Im cream crackered, and need my tea! But a bit of the sun today, and I`m sure that I saw the hint of yellow on the ■■■■ as I came home… a good sign indeed!
Riverstick, that post sums up Jim Somers to a “T”, he was a wizard, and a decent fellow as well! Yes the Alternator set up on RHD was a “botch”. Why did no one ever spot these things? Those TR280s were some lorry, bit on the heavy side, but so, so relaxing to drive. Not mega power, but economic, and could they climb banks, I think in the UK they claimed “what goes up, as the revs go down”, talking about the maxi couple principle. But you really had to drive one, (properly), to experience just how good they were! Lay of the revs, and just let her go…and she will!
Steve, thanks for your kind comments, and those photographs. Bejam were one of the largest users of TF231s. Frank Petch was their engineer, a really thorough chap. The Abthorpe family were, along with the Sainsburys, one of the first to “package food” for the house wife. I think that they started by shrink wrapping potatoes, (a subject dear to my heart), and selling them washed, and ready to go! Then of course came the frozen operation, predominatly in the South of England with the Bejam Freezer centres, served by a large cold store at Milton Keynes. So big did the operation become that it was bought out by Iceland.
Yes the prop angle on the TF was stupid, (as was the use of the BDSL box), I could not count the number of my clients in France who lost hours of productivity with the vagaries of that box! Why they used it in the UK heaven only knows, a 9speed Fuller would have been far better suited, (but of course their head of Marketing was an ex Leyland Graduate, and what he knew about lorries…well enough said! A 12 speed box, with No 12 blocked off!!!
Shame really, that TF231, and the G260 that followed could have been market winners for Renault in the UK. The basic engine was , as I refered to in my last post as the “little block”. Designed by Berliet in the late 60s, as the MIDR 06 20 35, as an "enviromental " engine, (low emissions, minimal fuel consumption, maximum service length), first debut in the "mixed marriage Saviem /Berliet Serie H, (four bumper mounted rectangular headlights, with a "Club of Four cab, (the 870). This reached its redesigned production in 81, as the MIDR 06 20 45, the 15mm increase in stroke giving additional Torque output. For a 9.8litre engine the power at 260hp was modest, but the trick was that the engineers at Saint Priest had given the engine the “fuel free” run off between 1950revs, and 2200revs, (the maximum), a trick never ever mastered by ■■■■■■■ or any other "high torque rise engine manufacturer. They had given a “little” 9.8litre all the driveable characteristics of its big 12litre sister, a true “maxi couple” design.
Oh, and specific fuel consumption was remarkable…below 20grams/Kw/Hr. If my memory serves me well, I think that the Gardner Turbo was at 193grams, and “our” 06 20 45 was at 196grams!!! Pretty spectacular stuff indeed. The same engine was in the G260 when it became voted as International Truck of the Year, (was that 1983)? And of course became the lighter engine for RVI. Its economy was remarkable, but its usability was totally dependant upon the correct transmission being utilised…sadly in GB, there were some difficulties. I have no theory if his was due to the input at Dunstable, or from RT&Bs UK Marketing people, (pity they had never driven a real lorry for a living)!! The fleet that sticks in my mind as really exploiting this engines economy was Ken, Arthur, and Ian Atkins, F B Atkins at Derby, although did not Brain Haulage run a fair few? Altogether these tractors were ultra light, with a hi torque rise engine, which gave unrivaled economy, and productivity payload earning figures. Clever men those Berliet engineers!!
I`m away to my tea, and a little Bollinger, the weather is set fair for the morrow, and there is a lot of spreading to be done…Cheerio for now.
Another great instalment Saviem (There may be a film there as well as a book ) Thank you. I drove 2 R310 4x2 Recovery Trucks - Both pulled well as long as you let it lug right to the start of the green band - I towed a loaded Magnum back from Bordeaux once - all up weight of 62 ton - Only got stopped once by the Gendarmes
I haven’t a photo of the 06.20.45 but
The G260
Cheers
Steve