Cruise Control:
at my dads place the drivers have to give up 1 days holiday per yeard if they want the company to pay for it. then they just got off in their own time to do the course that way it gets around any tacho rules about other work/learning etc because they arnt at work.
Not sure how to view that…
If on paid annual leave then the driver is supposed to be able to dispose of their time as they see fit but if the company is insisting that they do a Dcpc course on that day then they do not fit that ‘as they see fit’ criteria IMO
I wonder if VOSA would see it the same as me■■?
they loose a day sorry, not book it off as holiday and told to go do the course.
Cruise Control:
they loose a day sorry, not book it off as holiday and told to go do the course.
That probably isn’t legal, and before even taking the tacho rules into consideration, as it would take them below the minimum holiday entitlement. In the same way you can no longer work holidays instead of taking them. Unless of course they already get more than the statutory 5.6 weeks.
dustylfc:
any training is classed as work anyway i think.
Only if the driver is being PAID for the TIME whilst training.
OK but just as an example…
So employer says, go do your Hi-ab course or ADR or whatever, I will pay for the course but not pay you for the training, but I need you to do it for your job. Don’t worry we’ll class the weekdays on the course as your weekly rest and you can go on to your next 6 24 hr periods afterwards.
For whatever reason afterwards the company is investigated. Would they automatically get away with it as the driver wasn’t being paid for it?
dustylfc:
any training is classed as work anyway i think.
Only if the driver is being PAID for the TIME whilst training.
OK but just as an example…
So employer says, go do your Hi-ab course or ADR or whatever, I will pay for the course but not pay you for the training, but I need you to do it for your job. Don’t worry we’ll class the weekdays on the course as your weekly rest and you can go on to your next 6 24 hr periods afterwards.
For whatever reason afterwards the company is investigated. Would they automatically get away with it as the driver wasn’t being paid for it?
As it would be down to the driver as to whether or not they chose to go on the course then the company have done no wrong - no employee can be MADE to do anything if they are not being paid to do it.
dustylfc:
any training is classed as work anyway i think.
Only if the driver is being PAID for the TIME whilst training.
OK but just as an example…
So employer says, go do your Hi-ab course or ADR or whatever, I will pay for the course but not pay you for the training, but I need you to do it for your job. Don’t worry we’ll class the weekdays on the course as your weekly rest and you can go on to your next 6 24 hr periods afterwards.
For whatever reason afterwards the company is investigated. Would they automatically get away with it as the driver wasn’t being paid for it?
As it would be down to the driver as to whether or not they chose to go on the course then the company have done no wrong - no employee can be MADE to do anything if they are not being paid to do it.
I need you to do it for your job
In the real world in the current climate… yes maybe some of the larger employers yes agreed… but, the smaller operator already struggling with loyal staff, or even the ones who know think if they don’t say yes then theres not exactly loads of other jobs about. This unfortunately is the case for a lot of things, driving with defects, breaking the hours rules etc, it happens.
Then you [ZB] pay me to do it !!
surely the trick is to do courses that will offer some benefit ? I’ve already done a digi tacho one ( before I was using digi ) and plan to do first aid, forklift/telehandler, Elf & Safety etc…
jdc:
I run a small removal company and have recently completed our first 7 hours of training. I like most on here, see this as just another expenditure, and whilst we picked up snippets of information, on the whole, the day was tedious to say the least.
Whilst it is not our responsibility to arrange the training, I got the drivers together and explained the situation and that I was prepared to arrange and pay for the course, but couldn’t really afford to pay the guys as well. We all agreed that as a compromise, they would attend the course in their time. They were happy, I was happy.
I am the first to agree that in an ideal world, we would have covered the expenses completely, but we just are not in a position to do this. We have recently had to upgrade part of the fleet so we have had to pay out for digital tachographs for the drivers, software to download etc and we do not have an endless supply of money. We are in a fortunate position with a good bunch of guys (only 12 drivers) but I would not want to lose any of them.
For those people who say that the company’s should pay for everything and its not fair if they don’t, just take a minute to reflect on the realities of the economy at the moment. In my line of work, there is a reasonable amount about, but the prices are being slashed and the profit margin getting smaller, there is only so much small companies can take.
Its not me being tight or squeezing the drivers more, its reality and I am fortunate to have a bunch of lads that appreciate this and understand the difficulties we face.
Unfortunateley for you it is your job as an employer to provide employment based training. But to highlight the point, what would you do if everyone of them refused to attend an unpaid course and they wanted paying for attending one? Dismiss them because they have no work related training in five years time?
I don’t have any sympathy for any employer who is on a tight margin, when they had good margins they don’t profit share. Like anyone will tell you its a buisness you can either run it or you can’t. You’ve recently paid for digi cards and software? Did it catch you on the hop, unexpected like? Any employee who attends a course for free or pays for one when he’s in full time employment in my opinion is a mug.
If your employer is paying for the time you are on the course then it’s other work
If your employer just pays for the course then it’s not other work.
You are wrong again Rog and Zippy is right
As a DCPC trainer I was approached by a local firm to run courses at their premises for their drivers.
They wanted to do them at the end of a shift for 7 hours or on a Friday afternoon after finishing a shift for 3.5 hours and complete the other 3.5 hours early on Saturday morning.
The Firm were paying me for the training but the drivers were NOT being paid for their time.
I was uncomfortable about the legality of this and it took me almost a fortnight to get the definitive answer.
I emailed JAUPT…no reply.
I phoned JAUPT…they said email the DSA
I emailed the DSA…they said ring the CPC Hotline.
I rang the CPC Hotline…they said email VOSA .
I emailed Vosa…no reply.
I phoned VOSA…they wasn’t sure in the office, but gave me the mobile numbers of 2 enforcement officers to ring for the definitive answer.
I rang the enforcement officer and Hallelujah, he gave me an answer.
Because the firm is expecting the drivers to take advantage of the training, and because it is on the same premises that they are employed, IT IS CLASSED AS OTHER WORK
I tried all the ‘yes but’ arguments all to no avail, and there was no doubt in their minds that it would be classed as other work.
all these blasted rules and regs and money spent and were still not deemed as a trade, its a joke, like the previous post even the services that should no the answers dont!! so how the hell are us as drivers meantt to get the correct legal answers when even vosa office dont no
i think 2014 we will see a rise in the number of migrant drivers not a fall, if this was a rule for say gas fitters or electricians it would probably be funded or defo paid for by the company, but not us drivers lets just keep kicking us while were down, its pretty much depressing, i havent researched the cost of cpc cos am not certain if am even gonna bother.
bloodoodle:
Because the firm is expecting the drivers to take advantage of the training, and because it is on the same premises that they are employed, IT IS CLASSED AS OTHER WORK
That makes sense to me. Just out of curiosity did they say what their take on the matter would be if the firm were expecting the drivers to attend the course but is was in a different place to where they normally work? To me if the company expect you to attend it takes the free to choose element out of the equation regardless of location.
The gist of the conversation was aimed at the two facts added together.
The fact that it was ‘expected’ and ‘paid for’ seemed to make it conclusive.
They also told me to give their phone number to anyone who didn’t believe me and they would tell them the same thing
Pat
PS Some of us trainers try and get the facts right, you know
bloodoodle:
The gist of the conversation was aimed at the two facts added together.
The fact that it was ‘expected’ and ‘paid for’ seemed to make it conclusive.
Which if those two things are conclusive makes you wonder why, with the same two conclusive things, the location changes the ruling. They appear to be contradicting themselves
bloodoodle:
PS Some of us trainers try and get the facts right, you know
You are one of the few Pat. I might even try to get the facts right myself if I do decide to get into this game, although it doesn’t seem to be necessary, I would feel better in doing so.
Firstly, thanks to Rog for alerting me to this thread.
Put simply, it doesn’t matter where the dCPC training is undertaken or whether the driver is being paid to attend the course or who pays the course fees; driver or employer, the course time cannot be counted as rest under the EU drivers hours rules.
If you want the detail. EC 561 gives the definitions of; driving time, other work, rest and break. As we all know, ‘rest’ is the period during which a driver may freely dispose of his (or her) time. Being on a compulsory training course doesn’t fit with that definition. ‘Break,’ cannot be claimed as a driver cannot do any ‘driving’ or ‘work’ on a break.
The definition of ‘other work’ in '561 refers back to 2002/15 (EC) our old friend that gave us the Road Transport Working Time Regulations in April 2005. If you look at Article 3 you will find the following definition of work;
‘working time’ shall mean:
in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.
I’ve put the important bit in part 5 in red.
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
geebee45:
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.
Reading the above shows that the original info I got about a driver choosing to pay for and do a Dcpc course in their rest time was obviously not accurate
This will now make a huge difference for all those that were intending to do a course without impeding their rest times.
I think many were intending to do such a course during a full weekly rest period but they will now have to regard doing that as possibly a reduced weekly rest.
geebee45:
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
That other work (the Dcpc course) will now have to be recorded on a digi tacho, seperate printout or on a seperate analogue chart - each record must contain name, date, start & finish time.
ROG:
Reading the above shows that the original info I got about a driver choosing to pay for and do a Dcpc course in their rest time was obviously not accurate
Which was what I was subtly, instead of calling you a trumpet on an open forum, trying to point out to you but you didn’t pick up on it.
I better go directly down the trumpet route next time.
I might even try to get the facts right myself if I do decide to get into this game, although it doesn’t seem to be necessary, I would feel better in doing so. 