Punchy Dan:
Bewick:
We ran 4 X 1844 Mercs with the EPS box at Bewick Transport and they gave faultless service. AND for Danl’s info I did drive themon a number of occasions and they were spot on !
Very appropriate initials for the gearbox
Round the yard is that
Oh! and I forgot to say Dan’l that I still preferred the Scanias ! 
newmercman:
Yes that Opticruise was horrible, the first two pedal, three if you count the emergency clutch folded up in the footwear, Telligent boxes were worse though. I only used one once and that was bobtail too, it was for the 25th anniversary of Truck of the Year and I took an 1857 Actros from wherever the staging area was into Birmingham city center where the convention center that had all of the past winners lined up was located, it involved a run up the M6 and into the city center. I was really looking forward to driving it, I mean it was a 570hp lorry and that was huge at the time and it was a major disappointment due to that gearbox, it really ruined the lorry.I had a similar experience driving an Opticruise equipped 164-580 belonging to the Jordan F1 racing team whilst on a play date at Scania HQ. Around the many roundabouts in Milton Keynes that thing could make you look like a complete amateur rather than the professional road tester you were masquerading as. It’s quite unreal to think that a prestigious manufacturer like Scania have only recently made a half decent AMT when their CAG system was one of the first on the roads in the mid 90s.
Is it possible to comment on a 570hp truck and gear box bobtail with a manual you would be skipping gears probably only using 1/3 of them
Yes it is, as you can see because I did lol. Seriously though, think about what you’re getting at, that I can comment about it emphasises how bad it was. At that time I was paid to have an opinion and because of that I tried my best to be completely neutral and make judgements based on the facts rather than any favouritism I may have, which would’ve helped the Merc as I liked them a lot.
Had I done a full roadtest of one and it performed as it did in my brief drive, the boys and girls at MB wouldn’t have been very happy as I would have told it as it was, no ifs ands or buts, maybe that’s why we never got to put one through it’s paces…
There was some controversy surrounding the big Actros with the autoshifting Telligent box, they were geared way too high and as a result performance suffered, this also had a negative effect on mpg as they hardly ever got into top gear when they were under load. They were retrofitted with lower ratio diffs and this fixed the problem, but even though they were immensely powerful, that gearbox ruined the experience, so IMHO a lorry that drives bad solo is going to be even worse at full weight.
I hope that clears it up.
newmercman:
that gearbox ruined the experience, so IMHO a lorry that drives bad solo is going to be even worse at full weight.I hope that clears it up.
I see your point but there are some tractors that are not at their best solo, modern MAN’s for one, the ride is hard and ungainly even skittish over our typical increasingly third world road surfaces, drive axle traction can be quite unnerving for those who lack seat of the pants feel and instead rely on the three letter acronyms to kick in fast enough to prevent wheelspin (in top gear) from allowing the vehicle to get out of shape, in other words non drivers, the gearbox even under manual control isn’t fast enough at low speeds.
Under loaded conditions the vehicles is the complete opposite, assuming its been specced sensibly for the weight involved, it’s on top of the job and especially if you learn to use the box and not just leave the bloody thing in auto, its a very competent stable platform well up to the job.
I suspect its partly to do with the front/rear axle weight ratio bobtail, empty i find MAN’s one of the first to struggle in snow, oddly enough the best tractor i’ve found for snow was the old square Axor especially when fitted with a proper gearbox and set of half worn bandvulc remoulds across the back, proved as unstoppable as my old FL12 wagon and drag car transporter which just plowed through serious drifts and 6" deep standing snow like it was on a normal wet road where barely of handful of vehicles were still moving, it would be interesting to compare tare axle weights between the various tractors, MAN’s are one of the lightest tractors and would guess are probably running up to 500kg tare lower on the drive axle than some others, maybe the engine is set slightly more forward in relation to the wheelbase, dunno, could be many reasons for a less than ideal bobtail experience…the best bobtail drive i ever had was a Daf 2500 i had new so many years ago, it was just lovely to drive you could throw it around like a car.
With Opticruise which you disliked understandably as an auto, once you sussed the ratios after practicing, and selected MH (manual hillclimbing) on the stalk and changed gears yourself you would have found the Scania to be a lovely drive, that box and i admit in auto it was just hopeless, would respond instantly and accurately to whatever you requested of it in manual MH faster changes than in M, want anything between 2 and 4 block shifts? they’re yours instantly with an engine happy to lug right to tickover revs if needed.
Juddian:
With Opticruise which you disliked understandably as an auto, once you sussed the ratios after practicing, and selected MH (manual hillclimbing) on the stalk…
IIRC, that automatic was a synchromesh gearbox, and the control mechanism used to force the gear in (dunno whether it used to release the clutch at all). Did the speeded-up “hill mode” not reduce the life of the synchromesh and/or the selector forks? Otherwise, why would the faster changes not be available ordinarily?
[zb]
anorak:Juddian:
With Opticruise which you disliked understandably as an auto, once you sussed the ratios after practicing, and selected MH (manual hillclimbing) on the stalk…IIRC, that automatic was a synchromesh gearbox, and the control mechanism used to force the gear in (dunno whether it used to release the clutch at all). Did the speeded-up “hill mode” not reduce the life of the synchromesh and/or the selector forks? Otherwise, why would the faster changes not be available ordinarily?
Don’t know why, my guess is AH gave a faster change for obvious reasons and just happened to be the same pressures used for MH changes, H being the pressure controlling click?
Never proved any less reliable or shorter lived than boxes left in Auto on the rest of the fleet, ironically the only time it broke down at probably 3 or 4 years old was when i was on holiday (when it would have been driven in auto only) and the box of electricks on top of the gearbox melted, very hot weather at the time…coincidentally the Scania mechanic called out brought a new one with him so it was presumably a known weak point.
On another tack, whilst undoubtedly the best gearbox for driveability in auto, those Volvo auto boxes have needed replacement more often that Scania box failures on the same work where i’ve worked, this applies more recently than the days of Opticruise, almost all the work i’ve been on for the last 30 years has had box driven PTO’s running for up to several hours a day, this might have some bearing (hoho ) on gearbox life.
Whilst we may not be overly impressed with either arsetronic or Traxon being usually older school drivers brought up on and used to, and still miss, rapid driver controlled gearchanges, there is no denying just how reliable (ignoring the thrust bearing failures) those ZF auto boxes have proven in use, i would suggest the ZF box is probably the most long lived of the modern auto boxes.
Juddian:
I’d have thought the Alison box would be well suited for gritters anyway, more likely to be actually plowing substantial snowdrifts in the USA and the Alison will gear up and down seamlessly as and when needed without losing power momentarily as in a normal gearshift, or for momentarily plus another second or two in automated manual boxes as found here
Fuel taxation not in lalaland either as in Britain and the EU.
My memory of the semi auto ( manual shift control ) at least Allison torque converter type was anything but ‘seamless’ more like a controlled exlosion on the upshifts and can remember a ‘discussion’ in which I said shouldn’t we at least try to rev match the downshifts to reduce the effect.
Later proved to be correct in an RCT Youtube video regards same in the Scammell Commander.
The Allison really was ( is ? ) a horrible thing only suited to dustcarts and large off road dump trucks.
The Foden box in the S85’s was changed to 9 speed Fuller more because of the ‘quality’ of the ‘drivers’ than the big angle, let alone a V, plough won’t just laugh at a decent snow drift in the right gear or even grabbing an upshift or a downshift as it charges through and pushes it out of the way.
I wonder why they waste all this electronic technology gets wasted on modern vehicles when a simple 2 speed Eaton axle was more than sufficient for high speed journeys from a Perkins engine.
Carryfast:
JIMBO47:
Sorry I’m a bit behind ( had a couple o bad days with the POst concussion anyway as NMM says it’s the drivers Sorry steering wheel attendants over in this parish that are the problem . A friend works for the main highways contractor in Ontario and they have had to order the new 6 wheeler gritters with Alison auto box as in my friends say the newer and not so new “driver” can’t drive a manual and don’t want to learnProbably more to do with council labourers want the overtime opportunities provided by gritting.While the career ‘drivers’ have to sit at home.
I know that emcon the Ontario highways company in the west have taken over the “ highway to hell” section from the previous company . , and according to my friend the permanent drivers are just that drivers and come winter seasonal drivers come in for six months work is a 12 hr shifts day/nights a month oEach them
In the defense of MB, the clutchless Telligent was among the first available, Juddian I’m not referring to the handling, a Mega Space Actros bobtail has everything against it in dynamics, as would every big cabbed tractor unit. What I’m concentrating on here is the gearbox and nothing else, it was slow and ponderous and couldn’t make up it’s mind, beyond that I can’t remember specifics, it was almost 20yrs ago.
I understand that the current Merc autoshifter is not a favourite, I’d like to go back to my earlier statement, it came 2nd to I-Shift, but IMHO Volvo are so far ahead of the competition that coming second is a win of sorts. I had a go in a Freightliner Cascadia with the DD15 and the DT12, which is what they call the Merc box here in the colonies and I thought it drove really nice, I was running a Volvo with I-Shift at the time and seriously considered the Freightliner as a replacement.
Lawrence Dunbar:
0You couldnt of put it better, Whatever happened to the good old Eaton Two speed axles, I have driven several motors with them, Plus I had this Dodge with the Eaton two speed & The Perkins engine N/A 6354., it did very well for me, Regards Larry.
Local Registration on the Leyland
newmercman:
In the defense of MB, the clutchless Telligent was among the first available, Juddian I’m not referring to the handling, a Mega Space Actros bobtail has everything against it in dynamics, as would every big cabbed tractor unit. What I’m concentrating on here is the gearbox and nothing else, it was slow and ponderous and couldn’t make up it’s mind, beyond that I can’t remember specifics, it was almost 20yrs ago.I understand that the current Merc autoshifter is not a favourite, I’d like to go back to my earlier statement, it came 2nd to I-Shift, but IMHO Volvo are so far ahead of the competition that coming second is a win of sorts. I had a go in a Freightliner Cascadia with the DD15 and the DT12, which is what they call the Merc box here in the colonies and I thought it drove really nice, I was running a Volvo with I-Shift at the time and seriously considered the Freightliner as a replacement.
The current Merc auto box is not a bad drive. It’s certainly one you can leave in auto full-time and it does what you need it to do without you needing to take full manual control. We’ve got an Actros 2545 (450) 6x2/2 on hire at the moment as one of our own is in for work and it despite it having 800k and being rough round the edges it drives absolutely fine. The ride is a bit choppy pulling full weight and the steering feels a bit light but the gearbox does its changing duties really well. I really like how I can knock the stick back in auto from say 12th to 11th to preempt a steep hill and despite being in auto mode it will stay in 11th until the speed dies off and recovers back to around 52/53mph once the terrain levels out and only then will take over and change back up into 12th itself and recover to 56mph. That is exactly the kind of control you want, unlike DAF who treats you like a naughty child and says “NO!” when you try to do it yourself.
My auto-box league table for tractor units <5 years old, best to worst (how fast they change, smoothness, general performance/how often they get confused) :
Scania and Volvo are basically a tie in 2nd place as they both perform exceptionally well in their own unique ways and it really comes down to personal preference. Scania’s standard 5 stage retarder and simple to use high descent control at the touch of a button is, in my personal opinion, better than Volvo’s version.
Wheel Nut:
Lawrence Dunbar:
0You couldnt of put it better, Whatever happened to the good old Eaton Two speed axles, I have driven several motors with them, Plus I had this Dodge with the Eaton two speed & The Perkins engine N/A 6354., it did very well for me, Regards Larry.Local Registration on the Leyland
Thats correct, It was new to Barrow Hepburn of Bevereley, I bought it from Lex at Hull, It was in very good nick but a bit smelly as a result from Animal Hides, I used to run to London & the West coast It never let me down once, Regards Larry.
To get back on topic, the two lorries I liked the older version of were Leyland Marathon over the Roadtrain & 2800/3300/3600 Daf over anything that came after,
Dieseldog66:
To get back on topic, the two lorries I liked the older version of were Leyland Marathon over the Roadtrain & 2800/3300/3600 Daf over anything that came after,
Oh god no , you will have the lunatic on now quoting song and verse everything that was wrong with the Marathon , he once had to drive one and didn’t like it so it was junk , roughly translated as it wasn’t new , it wasn’t the most comfortable and he was an ex council driver who could get away with moaning about everything in previous employment
i liked the Marathon and thought it could have been improved but money was tight.
I only drove the 2800 version of the older Dafs and struggled a bit with the low screen , whereas the 95 was much roomier but the 310 was dreadful
I drove all versions of 2800, TBH everyone raves about the 3300 but blowed if i found them any better and that bloody little light telling you when to change gear got on ones mammaries.
2800 as i recall came in three basic specs DKTD, DKS and DKSE (i think those were the model designations, apologise if i’ve got those muddled it was day or two ago), the middle one supposed to be the more powerful, the latter eco biased and DKTD lower powered.
However the DKTD i drove was supposedly Gelder’s specced, bought used by the chap i worked for, whether it had been tinkered with i don’t know but it pulled like a train and that lovely back to front splitter box (carried over from 2600?) was a dream once you got the hang of it with perfect ratios and rapid shifts, it pulled better than both DKSE and the DKS.
95 was flat as a ■■■■ compared to all the 2800s, an underwhelming engine spoiling an otherwise quite decent wagon.
ramone:
Dieseldog66:
To get back on topic, the two lorries I liked the older version of were Leyland Marathon over the Roadtrain & 2800/3300/3600 Daf over anything that came after,Oh god no , you will have the lunatic on now quoting song and verse everything that was wrong with the Marathon , he once had to drive one and didn’t like it so it was junk , roughly translated as it wasn’t new , it wasn’t the most comfortable and he was an ex council driver who could get away with moaning about everything in previous employment
i liked the Marathon and thought it could have been improved but money was tight.
I only drove the 2800 version of the older Dafs and struggled a bit with the low screen , whereas the 95 was much roomier but the 310 was dreadful
