Thanks to Depoel for providing the information above.
I still feel its too loaded against the driver,both in terms of access to information, and no guarantees that the information held is fully accurate.
Whilst Depoel would have a contractual duty of care towards their clients, i.e. TNT etc, it would appear that the same duty of care does not apply to the drivers on its database. And therein lies the problem.
duracell:
At least we must thank DePoel for taking the time to try and answer our concerns, I do appriciate the concessions they have made to both Trucknet members, and agrement to verify facts on any accident occurences prior to them being added to there data base. I would however suggest that prior to entering any drivers details DePoel write to each driver, (suggest registered mail) to verify all details are correct, and the driver whose details are to be added agrees to being added to your files, after all if he wants to work, and the details held are agreed as correct by all parties, and permission granted for his/hers details to be passed to prospective employers I cannot see at that point any problem.
I am sorry Duracell, I can only see such databases leading to bad things for the industry. It will end up as being “If your names not on the list then your not coming in” Compnies will refuse to use people who are not registerd, then as Rikki said in an earlier post it will spread to all drivers not just agency.
I have always enjoyed my time working on Agency, It gives me flexibility and stops me getting bored by doing the same work all the time. But why should I be dictated to by a system that is fundamentaly floored (by dictated to I mean if I am not on it then there will be companies that I will not be able to work for), All it will do is stop agency’s doing the checks themselves, they will start to rely on a system that is unsafe, insecure & unprofessional.
Personally, I think De Poel’s Directors response is very predictable, I could have written those answers, they are just a standard response, no real thought has gone into them. They look like they have been written with the very real thought and knowledge that this thread is being followed by the media, as such the answers were as I have said predictable.
How long before all large companies insist you are on this list as TNT seem to do? Would they refuse to use you if you are not on the list? If they do refuse because you are not on the list can you take them to court for infringing your rights and loss of earnings?
Of course you wont be able to, this whole system should be shut down sooner rather then later. If my details had been on the databse (allegdly they are not) then I would be seeking legal advice at this moment to have the whole system shut down. Systems like these should NEVER be allowed to be run for profit. They should only be allowed in the interests of public safety, Infact jsut like the database that the DVLA hold, I think they call it something like a “Drivers Licence”
I wish to thank de Poel for at least having the courtesy to post on here in response to the concerns expressed.
I have briefly read the anwers supplied, I am no where near convinced that this is of a benefit in any way for the professional driver and still have a number of issues with our personal privacy , Unfortunatly I have to leave very soon for a meeting on the otherside of the country and havent got time to get deeply into it all right now.
Hopefully I should be back late afternoon/early evening and will post then
Rikki
I agree withall those of the post which have stated there repugnantcy
and repetitive disapproval of the BIG BROTHER system which this
company wishes to pursue .As one of our members has all ready
equivalently this is not secure, way of finding the true and correct
details of a person as they do not deal directly with the person who
is shown in DATA held in the programme and therefore relies on a
entry from a third party who may or may not be stateing the truth.
Now how can we be secure that all DATA provided is true and
has come from the driver, its okay saying oh but it is against the
law to falsifie information .this is done every day and will continue
to occour and therefore I am completely in disagreement that such
a system should be allowed or used.If the firm which wishes to
employ drivers who only have experience in the field of which they
operate then they should state this to the agency who sends drivers
to them.and by dealing directly with the agency ensures that with no
middle-man that the blame for any incident that might happen will,
and can be given to those it concerns,
I SAY AGAIN NO I WOULD NOT ALLOW MY DETAILS TO BE HELD BY
A NON-GOVERMENT-DATA-BANK::: IN THIS WAY;
Is there any way other than by payment that a driver can check their details in the system?
· A- Yes, by asking his agency to show him the record on th
eir pc.
What if you are not currently driving for an agency & / or in the past have driven for several / many differnt agencies ?.
This puts the enthasis back onto the driver to either pay £10 or spend a lot of time checking with past agencies.
Has anyone not seen a CRB disclosure ?. I have my wifes, which she recieved last week infront of me.
What information is stored on the system?
· A- Upon Registration
§ Name
§ Address
§ Photograph
§ Drivers licence number
§ DOB
§ NI Number
§ Individual PIN (Chosen by driver)
§ Next of Kin (For use in case of emergency)
§ Contact phone numbers
§ CRB Check carried out (if required and signed for by driver)
§ Licences held
§ Experience gained i.e. rope and sheet, refrigeration unit etc
Upon start of each assignment
§ Details of any Manual handling training
§ Details of any client assessment
§ Drivers declaration re: hours worked
A CRB form also has details on
Place of Birth
Counter signatory’s Name
Police records. (Convictions, Cautions, Repremands & Final Warnings.)
Infomation held under the Education Act, section 142.
Other infomation disclosed at the Chief Police Officers discretion.
So the above is not totally honest if a CRB check has been done.
·
Will any company who wants to view a driver’s details be able to do so?
· A- No only de Poel clients that the driver wishes to drive for can view the information.
How do they know this is the case unless they check with the driver ?.
If I ran a company registerd with De Poel, given that I will need to employ drivers how will they know that only the drivers who are applying for jobs there are being checked ?.
·
Is de Poel under any legal obligation to check the integrity of the information in the system?
· A- No, although de Poel regularly checks the system for admin or malicious error. Both agencies and clients are legally bound to check the integrity of the information.
This needs defining & a full explanation.
What additional information can be added to incidents, does this include if the driver was blameworthy?
· A_ Type of accident e.g. RTA, Fatality and yes it will include Considered Blameworthy or not
Rikki-UK:
The Recruitment and Employment Confederation have taken advice from their lawyers with regard to their code of practice and the data protection act:First de Poel is NOT a member of the REC and therefore the REC cannot say wether they belive that de Poel should/should not be offering this service.
They do say, they believe there may be issues connected with their members passing on information to de Poel.
They also stated that they take their Code of Conduct very seriously, and members of the REC are expected to uphold it in every wayThey suggest that anyone who works for an agency that is a member of the REC who has concerns over their information being passed onto de Poel without their express consent should contact them and they will investigate.
De Poel wrote
· Are the agencies registered with you members of the REC?
· A- Yes the majority of agencies are registered with REC.
Rikki-UK:
Response for the DTIIn their opinion (on the information I gave them) de Poel is acting as an employment Business under section 13.2 of The Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003
De Poel wrote.
Is de Poel a member of the REC?
· A- No de Poel is not an agency.
My main concern was this…
"· How does de Poel stop individuals who don’t see eye to eye with drivers from entering negative information about them?
· A- There is no free text field within the system and all accident information must be authorised by a client’s senior management. "
There can be no guarantees that the senior management would even know as all it needs is an individual to have the logon details to be able to make an entry. However they appear to have addressed this by allowing the driver the opportunity to contest it.
Another point I disagree on…
"· Will de Poel agree to withhold information held on an individual until they have received written confirmation from that individual that they have been consulted fully, and made aware of all the implications of their details being held on the database.
· A- No unfortunately this is not practicable. "
Sorry but it is. You are CHARGING for this service and it’d only cause a problem during the initial set up.
I have contacted Liberty asking for advice.
I’m sure this will not remain a driver data base only or that the infomation held will not exspand unless we fight for our rights now.
the longer we leave it the harder it will become. If companies think it’s not worth the fight then they wont sign up for it.
Duncan Wrote:
We will never deal with other agencies only the client directly
do you supply drivers to Gist through the mastervend system??
CM:
WHO will make the judgement as to whether a Driver is blameworthy or not? It cannot be left to any unqualified person who in the eyes of the law is not trained or qualified to draw such conclusions. The only way to effectively implement such a category of information would be via access to Police records as the criminal and civil justice systems are the only ones to can ascirtain if someone is to blame or not, it has to be tested in a court, not left to someones opinion. There is real danger here, beware!
Good point. For info, there are others in the Transport Industry who are deemed to be able to ‘draw such conclusions’ i.e. RSO (Road Safety Officer) and APM (Accident Procedures Manager). The latter is, as such, an accident investigator and as part of the reporting procedures gives advice/opinion with regard to cause of accident (incl driver fault/blameworthy) and recommends necessary corrective training. These are both quite intensive courses - I should know; I’ve done them both. I doubt there is likey to be even one agency that has. 
I would also like to thank de Poel for taking the time to answer (some) of our questions; it wouldn’t have been very astute not to! I do, however, feel a bit embarressed by some of the attitudes/comments posted by our members when the ‘eye’s of the transport world’ are watching us, now more so than ever.
And so, in the light of the answers/info provided do I feel any better about this issue? Well, the answer is still ‘no’, primarily for the reasons already posted above. I am sure that this will become one of the first questions asked by any driver when he walks into an agency office, from now on. The wrong answers will see that person walking out. I agree with a system of checks but for now the DVLA is surfice.
Additional Notes: Having read and taken onboard the genuine concerns expressed over the last week in this forum de Poel will:
Provide all drivers who are members of trucknetuk with one free copy of their records during 2005 upon written request and quoting their membership name.
Notify all drivers in writing should a Considered blameworthy accident or incident be added to their record. Drivers will then be able to contest this if applicable.
I commend de Poel on these last two points but I feel it will be ‘too little, too late’.
marcustandy:
CM:
WHO will make the judgement as to whether a Driver is blameworthy or not? It cannot be left to any unqualified person who in the eyes of the law is not trained or qualified to draw such conclusions. The only way to effectively implement such a category of information would be via access to Police records as the criminal and civil justice systems are the only ones to can ascirtain if someone is to blame or not, it has to be tested in a court, not left to someones opinion. There is real danger here, beware!Good point. For info, there are others in the Transport Industry who are deemed to be able to ‘draw such conclusions’ i.e. RSO (Road Safety Officer) and APM (Accident Procedures Manager). The latter is, as such, an accident investigator and as part of the reporting procedures gives advice/opinion with regard to cause of accident (incl driver fault/blameworthy) and recommends necessary corrective training. These are both quite intensive courses - I should know; I’ve done them both. I doubt there is likey to be even one agency that has.
Marcustandy thanks for the supportive comments. As part of the established investigative regime for Road Traffic incidents both the RSO and APM are trained and qualified professionals whose basis for existance is enshrined in legislation, I could accept their conclusions or judgment on the basis they are competent persons and almost cirtainly do know better than me. I would argue that without exception, De Poel, Agencies, Clients or TM’s cannot make judgements that effect someone else’s livelyhood and under cirtain circumstances their freedom.
Rikki-UK:
Personal Details
Family, Lifestyle and Social Circumstances
Education and Training Details
Employment Details
Goods or Services Provided
Racial or Ethnic Origin
Physical or Mental Health or Condition
Offences (Including Alleged Offences)
[/quote]
I am particularly concerned about the items highlighted above.
Why does an employer need to know and pass on information about your family, lifestyle and social circumstances?
I’ve got my class 1, 2, Hiab, digger training and am now licenced to operate the relevant vehicles, thats covered the training, what education details do you need, ‘O’ levels, degree, doctorate?
What in heavens name your racial or ethnic origin got to do with the price of fish, a driver is a driver. This to me smacks of a racist question, will an employer be allowed to accept/decline a driver on either of these points?
If your physical/mental health is in question, then it’s the doctor should be involved, not a third party, your employer has some requirement to know about this, so they can assess what jobs you can do, but not a third party, also we are looking at the breaching of medical confidentiality, a serious offence in my mind.
Goods or services provided, I drive a truck, can navigate my way around, exactly what is meant by this one?
Offences, driving related only I hope, one driver I know has done time, but that doesn’t stop him being a good driver, even a peadophile could be a good driver. Obviously if a driver has points, I can see the relevance, but otherwise?
I’m extremely unhappy about all this information being held by a third party, and will be contacting my employer and making sure that my personal information is not passed on. It’s bad enough the CSA having my details.
de Poel Director:
· When was the database started?
· A — Trials began in Autumn 2004 before add’s official launch in December 2004· Are their any other similar databases on the market?
· A- To our knowledge add is a unique offering by de Poel.· How many drivers are currently on the system?
· A- Although always changing this number is currently in the region of 4000. It is our aim to exceed 10,000 drivers by 2006
So where did you come by the information you had stored? Speaking to TNT agency drivers recently (amongst others), they had no knowledge of this database, though you claim to have the details of 4,000+ drivers. They are contacting their agencies and spreading the word. I shall wait and see what heppens with interest.
· What is the charge for data information requests?
· A- £10 unfortunately due to an internal error this has in some cases been quoted as £25. This has never been charged at any point
Sounds like a complete jackanory to me, but thanks for dropping the fee I have to pay for viewing information you have stored on me - you graciousley offer all TruckNet users a free look at their information. Why can’t you do this for everyone? I’d be quite happy to send an SAE.
· What is the name and contact details of the data protection officer?
· A- Kay Jones
· What information is stored on the system?
· A- Upon Registration
§ Name
§ Address
§ Photograph
§ Drivers licence number
§ DOB
§ NI Number
§ Individual PIN (Chosen by driver)
§ Next of Kin (For use in case of emergency)
§ Contact phone numbers
§ CRB Check carried out (if required and signed for by driver)
§ Licences held
§ Experience gained i.e. rope and sheet, refrigeration unit etc
Upon start of each assignment
§ Details of any Manual handling training
§ Details of any client assessment
§ Drivers declaration re: hours worked
Quite happy with the above, if I know it’s going to be stored and agree to it. It’s generally the information agencies take when you register with them.
Ongoing
· Details of accidents and incidents· Is the information stored in the system factual or subjective?
· A- Factual — There are no free text fields once a driver has been set up any additions i.e. endorsements new licences gained e.g. ADR are chosen via drop down menus.
It’s a bit final. Information is factual. This is not thought out properly. How do drivers contest this information if it is wrong as and when we find out about it?
· Is there an easy way for drivers to contact the administrators to gain access to the information on the system?
· A- Due to the volume of drivers this is only possible by written request to de Poel. The driver’s agency could show a driver his record at any time via their access pc.
So why do you feel the need to charge an exhorbitant sum?
· How will drivers be able to change information stored about them in the system?
· A- depending on the information that needs to be changed this can be done in a couple of ways. Personal information can be amended by either the drivers agency or de Poel i.e. change of address, name etc. Licence information can be amended by either client i.e. end user or agency. Accident and incidents can only be entered by clients and should these occur they have to authorised by client senior management before appearing on the system.
This I am not happy about at all. This could lead to some very unplesant situations occuring between driver, agency and client .
· Are drivers informed that their details will be entered on the system?
· A- Yes. Contractually agencies should do this. However as a safe guard de Poel guarantee to write to all drivers added to the system within 48 hours of them being added informing them that they are now on the system and what this entails. Should a driver demonstrate that his or her permission was not granted to do so, de Poel will remove any and all records held.
Hmmm, what about having additional information added? IE being able to contest a blamworthy “incident” ?
· Is it a legal requirement to inform drivers before their details are entered on to the system?
· A- Yes.
· How is permission gained to input an individual’s details on the system?
· A- Via documentation provided to the driver by the hiring agency. This is not normally part of their standard terms and will form a separate document.
Depends how ethical the agency is really, and not wishing to tar them all with the same brush, but I would ask a direct question before I start working for them, then double check with yourselfs when I do.
· What safe guards are in place to ensure the information is correct?
A- Agency’s and clients are contractually and legally bound to ensure to their best endevour that all information is accurate; in the same way as your personnel file would be should you be in permanent employment.
Doesn’t fill me with confidence either.
· How does de Poel ensure that drivers understand the implications of their details being placed on the system?
· A_ By asking agencies to inform their drivers before adding them. By ensuring that legally agencies are responsible to do this and as a safeguard by informing all drivers added within 48 hours that they are now logged on add, what is logged and the purpose of this.· What happens if de Poel finds out that an agency has added a driver’s detail without their knowledge?
· A- The driver will have the option to be removed from the system — at no cost. Depending on the regularity of this breach of contract de Poel would reserve the right under its terms and conditions to remove the agency from the system.
Still going to cost me to view my information that your client’s erroniousley entered. As they’re going to no doubt pay you serious money for the use of this system, I can’t see you removing them, as that’s reducing your profits.
I could go on and on and on with negative comments about this “database”. I would like to say something good about it, but I’m sorry, I can’t find an awful lot in their. It’s an ill thought out piece of software, with no way of contesting a “blameworthy” judgment, made by someone who probably hasn’t spoken to me about it and heard my side of the story. Let me ask you dePole, would you judge a member of your staff from afar without hearing their side of the story, because I certainly wouldn’t and never used to . My main gripe is that I would want to contest a blameworthy incident before it goes on the system and destroys a lot of hard work by marring my reputation, maybe through clicking the wrong bo on a Monday morning. You see, mistakes are made and people will at the end of the day make them maliciousley for their own personal gain. Once again, I would like to remove the unscrupelous, unprofessional drivers from the industry as it would get us agency drivers a better reputation, but at the end of the day, I cannot see this benifitting anyone, only causing more trouble than it solve, for all parties.
de Poel Director:
·· Will de Poel generate a list of disreputable agencies?
· A- No this does not fit with our objectives as a Limited company. Part of de Poel’s overall process is to protect clients and agency workers from such disreputable companies.[/size]
So De Poel Will be generating a list of disreputable agencies, but won’t let potential employees see it.
Sorry De Poel, but isn’t this more than a bit one sided. The potential employer can see all about me, but I’m not allowed to see anything about the potential employer.
This STINKS, and thats a polite way of saying it.
marcustandy:
I do, however, feel a bit embarressed by some of the attitudes/comments posted by our members when the ‘eye’s of the transport world’ are watching us, now more so than ever.
Well thats the joy of having an open forum in a democratic society isnt it , everybody has the right to express their oppinion no matter how articulate they are, at least everybody’s comments here are visable and we dont have to pay to look at them like we would have to do with the De Poel system eh Marcustandy!!