fdm:
If you are lucky enough to drive an MAN, your tachograph will add a whole minute of driving time, for every part minute that you move. This may sound trivial, and I forgive you your shrug of ‘so what’.
But think what that means when you are forced to stop/ start, like in a queue, say at a RDC.
You stop on arrival, and the tachograph is into a minute. That is added (rounded up) to your time. You stop in the queue. The queue moves up, you start driving, for what, 50 foot? Less than 10 seconds? The clock runs. When you next move for a minute, the tachograph will add two.
This week I started outside Coca Colas Wakefield depot, straight in, hook up trailer, straight on bay, straight out, out of gate, 32 minutes driving time on the tachograph…
All type 1 digital tachographs do that not just the ones in MANs, the type 2 digital tachographs which came into operation in 2012 (I think) work a bit better and will record the activity that takes up most of the minute.
The type 2 digital tachographs can save you a lot of driving time during a day that you do a lot of stop starting.
All digital tachographs use “sandwich” time, a rolling one minute period sandwiched between the one before and the one after to calculate what the mode should be. The difference between type 1 and type 2 is how its calculated.
So they use rolling 3 minute blocks,
Say you drive for 20 seconds then stop for 2.5 minutes and then set off again.
Type 1 would see 20 seconds driving in the first minute, no driving in the second minute, 10 seconds driving in the third minute. Because there was driving in the first and last minute then it records the three minute “sandwich” as driving so you’ve done 30 seconds driving but its cost you 3 minutes.
Type 2 would see 20 seconds driving in the first minute, no driving in the second minute, 10 seconds in the third minute as above. However as it is set to see the mode for a minute block as what forms the majority of that block, i,e the first block and last block is mostly non-driving it would record the whole three minute “sandwich” as other work.
So with Type 1 you lose 2.5 minutes drive time and with type 2 you gain 30 seconds.
How much of a difference does this make? At the start of my shift I get in the wagon, do checks, usually a short drive to the pumps to get engine oil then drive maybe a minute to the trailer and hook up. From there its a 2-3 minute drive out of the yard and from start to leaving the yard is roughly about 30 minutes. Type 1 will record over 1/4hr of driving. Type 2 records 5 minutes.
Actrosman:
I had one the other week for only taking an 18 minute break in a 7.5hr shift…card in at 19:00, break started at 23:32 & finished at 23:50 (obviously) with only 3hrs 40 driving…Booked off at 01:30. Our in-house system gave me 1 point for that…get to 6 and I get councilling!
you broke the WTD as long as you did over 6hrs with only 18 mins probably
You can take 15mins at 6hrs WTD and work an additional 6 hrs before required another break
Fixed that for you.
No you didn’t, to work an additional 6 hours, you need a break of 30 mins, 15 mins allows you to work an additional 3 hrs, as stated!
Actrosman:
I had one the other week for only taking an 18 minute break in a 7.5hr shift…card in at 19:00, break started at 23:32 & finished at 23:50 (obviously) with only 3hrs 40 driving…Booked off at 01:30. Our in-house system gave me 1 point for that…get to 6 and I get councilling!
you broke the WTD as long as you did over 6hrs with only 18 mins probably
You can take 15mins at 6hrs WTD and work an additional 6 hrs before required another break
Fixed that for you.
No you didn’t, to work an additional 6 hours, you need a break of 30 mins, 15 mins allows you to work an additional 3 hrs, as stated!
Actrosman:
I had one the other week for only taking an 18 minute break in a 7.5hr shift…card in at 19:00, break started at 23:32 & finished at 23:50 (obviously) with only 3hrs 40 driving…Booked off at 01:30. Our in-house system gave me 1 point for that…get to 6 and I get councilling!
you broke the WTD as long as you did over 6hrs with only 18 mins probably
You can take 15mins at 6hrs WTD and work an additional 6 hrs before required another break
Fixed that for you.
No you didn’t, to work an additional 6 hours, you need a break of 30 mins, 15 mins allows you to work an additional 3 hrs, as stated!
Nope, sorry but you’re wrong.
As far as the RT(WT)R are concerned, at or before 6 hours working time you need a break of 15 minutes, depending on the total length of the shift you can then work for another 6 hours before needing another 15 minute break, as your total working time is then over 9 hours you would need another 15 minute break before the end of the shift but not at the immediate end of shift.
That’s a total of 45 minutes break/breaks for a shift of more than 9 hours working time.
If your total working time is not more than 9 hours you would need a 15 minute break at or before 6 hours working time and another 15 minute break before the end of the shift or before another 6 hours working time whichever comes first, but the last break cannot be at the immediate end of the shift.
That’s a total of 30 minute break/breaks for a shift that’s more than 6 hours working time but not more than 9 hours working time.
Actrosman:
I had one the other week for only taking an 18 minute break in a 7.5hr shift…card in at 19:00, break started at 23:32 & finished at 23:50 (obviously) with only 3hrs 40 driving…Booked off at 01:30. Our in-house system gave me 1 point for that…get to 6 and I get councilling!
you broke the WTD as long as you did over 6hrs with only 18 mins probably
You can take 15mins at 6hrs WTD and work an additional 6 hrs before required another break
Fixed that for you.
No you didn’t, to work an additional 6 hours, you need a break of 30 mins, 15 mins allows you to work an additional 3 hrs, as stated!
Show me in the WTD Regulations where it states you need another 15 minutes before exceeding 9 hours. Don’t waste too much time looking because it doesn’t say it anywhere.
I’ll make it easy for you and save you time. This is the part of the regulations regarding breaks.
Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
7(1) applies to all shifts.
7(4) applies to all shifts.
7(2) clearly states it only applies to shifts with between 6 and 9 hours work.
So if your shift has more than 9 hours work you completely ignore this and instead apply 7(3). You don’t apply both 7(3) and 7(4) to the same shift.
7(1) defines how long you can go without a break and that only states 6 hours, it does not say anything about a break before exceeding 9 hours.
It really is simple, you can never work more than 6 hours without a break of at least 15 minutes and depending on the amount of work in the shift you need a further 15 or 30 minutes of break and the next break will be triggered either at another 6 hours work or before the end of the shift whichever comes first. That’s it.
The 30 mins before end of shift bit is a right pain the jacksy for me as i could easily get back within 6 and rarely do more than 6 1/2. Cant see the point in taking another 15 when I’m off home soon after! I only take 15 as I pull into Leigh Delamere to have a whizz and grab a sarnie! Maybe I could argue the toss that I may have to do a local load on my return so didn’t take it. Upon my arrival at base, there was nothing to go so went home! Or I could park on the bay when it’s being unloaded, take the 2nd 15, get em to shut the bay door and I’ll drive round the block for a minute! Then I’ll put it back and go home
Actrosman:
The 30 mins before end of shift bit is a right pain the jacksy for me as i could easily get back within 6 and rarely do more than 6 1/2. Cant see the point in taking another 15 when I’m off home soon after! I only take 15 as I pull into Leigh Delamere to have a whizz and grab a sarnie! Maybe I could argue the toss that I may have to do a local load on my return so didn’t take it. Upon my arrival at base, there was nothing to go so went home! Or I could park on the bay when it’s being unloaded, take the 2nd 15, get em to shut the bay door and I’ll drive round the block for a minute! Then I’ll put it back and go home
If you can easily get back within 6 then you don’t need a break at all.
Yep, you only need a minute between the last break and the end of the shift so that would work nicely.
I say ‘easily’ loosely!! Can manage 5 1/12 easy enough but allowing 10-15 for ‘admin’ then card out (chart) and allowing 5-10 to go to office and hang keys up etc, takes me up to 6hrs … But that’s because I mark on the chart the 'EOD/SDR line 15 mins after pulling the chart, as I work on 15min segments, as the trace doesn’t tally up with the time displayed!
Actrosman:
The 30 mins before end of shift bit is a right pain the jacksy for me as i could easily get back within 6 and rarely do more than 6 1/2. Cant see the point in taking another 15 when I’m off home soon after! I only take 15 as I pull into Leigh Delamere to have a whizz and grab a sarnie! Maybe I could argue the toss that I may have to do a local load on my return so didn’t take it. Upon my arrival at base, there was nothing to go so went home! Or I could park on the bay when it’s being unloaded, take the 2nd 15, get em to shut the bay door and I’ll drive round the block for a minute! Then I’ll put it back and go home
Doesn’t have to be driving, could be 1 min other work
Coffeeholic, thanks for highlighting the stupidity of our in house trainer - thought the calculations didn’t look right when i was being retrained on dcpc course (shall revert to paying no attention whatsoever during these courses in future!)
But obviously what i was told was wrong hence i thought your adjustment to my post was wrong (schoolboy error!)
Smiffys trucking:
Coffeeholic, thanks for highlighting the stupidity of our in house trainer - thought the calculations didn’t look right when i was being retrained on dcpc course (shall revert to paying no attention whatsoever during these courses in future!)
But obviously what i was told was wrong hence i thought your adjustment to my post was wrong (schoolboy error!)
Safest way is to ignore almost everything on a DCPC course, it’s been scientifically established that 89.73% of every course is ■■■■■■■■.
Smiffys trucking:
Coffeeholic, thanks for highlighting the stupidity of our in house trainer - thought the calculations didn’t look right when i was being retrained on dcpc course (shall revert to paying no attention whatsoever during these courses in future!)
But obviously what i was told was wrong hence i thought your adjustment to my post was wrong (schoolboy error!)
Safest way is to ignore almost everything on a DCPC course, it’s been scientifically established that 89.73% of every course is ■■■■■■■■.
Think it was the first one I’ve actually paid attention too, and as expected, it was a crock!
Actrosman:
I had one the other week for only taking an 18 minute break in a 7.5hr shift…card in at 19:00, break started at 23:32 & finished at 23:50 (obviously) with only 3hrs 40 driving…Booked off at 01:30. Our in-house system gave me 1 point for that…get to 6 and I get councilling!
you broke the WTD as long as you did over 6hrs with only 18 mins probably
You can take 15mins at 6hrs WTD and work an additional 6 hrs before required another break
Fixed that for you.
No you didn’t, to work an additional 6 hours, you need a break of 30 mins, 15 mins allows you to work an additional 3 hrs, as stated!
Show me in the WTD Regulations where it states you need another 15 minutes before exceeding 9 hours. Don’t waste too much time looking because it doesn’t say it anywhere.
I’ll make it easy for you and save you time. This is the part of the regulations regarding breaks.
Breaks
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
7(1) applies to all shifts.
7(4) applies to all shifts.
7(2) clearly states it only applies to shifts with between 6 and 9 hours work.
So if your shift has more than 9 hours work you completely ignore this and instead apply 7(3). You don’t apply both 7(3) and 7(4) to the same shift.
7(1) defines how long you can go without a break and that only states 6 hours, it does not say anything about a break before exceeding 9 hours.
It really is simple, you can never work more than 6 hours without a break of at least 15 minutes and depending on the amount of work in the shift you need a further 15 or 30 minutes of break and the next break will be triggered either at another 6 hours work or before the end of the shift whichever comes first. That’s it.
Thanks, this is how I always understood it too
Anyone got links to the full regulations ? Can only find the summary / guidance
Harry Monk:
Twice I’ve pulled up on 4:29, stuck the tacho on rest, and 30 seconds or so later, it’s flashed up “driving time exceeded”.
Digital tachographs are not always accurate and lie! It may show you’ve taken 45 minutes on the screen, but in actual fact it records only 43 minutes taken. because of this I was always told to take 50 minutes not 45, in fact five minutes extra on all brakes.
It’s the same with driving time, it may be a couple of minutes out of what it actually tells you on the screen.
and stop at least 5 minutes before you have to if at all possible.
Harry Monk:
Twice I’ve pulled up on 4:29, stuck the tacho on rest, and 30 seconds or so later, it’s flashed up “driving time exceeded”.
Digital tachographs are not always accurate and lie! It may show you’ve taken 45 minutes on the screen, but in actual fact it records only 43 minutes taken. because of this I was always told to take 50 minutes not 45, in fact five minutes extra on all brakes.
It’s the same with driving time, it may be a couple of minutes out of what it actually tells you on the screen.
and stop at least 5 minutes before you have to if at all possible.
If you just look at the time on the tacho when you stop and the 45 minutes later on the same clock you set off then you may have had less than 45 minutes. If you change the display to show the break period then when that shows 45 minutes you have taken 45 minutes and are good to go. That’s what will be recorded on the data and print out and never will that display show 45 minutes and the data and printout show less.
Harry Monk:
Twice I’ve pulled up on 4:29, stuck the tacho on rest, and 30 seconds or so later, it’s flashed up “driving time exceeded”.
Digital tachographs are not always accurate and lie! It may show you’ve taken 45 minutes on the screen, but in actual fact it records only 43 minutes taken. because of this I was always told to take 50 minutes not 45, in fact five minutes extra on all brakes, and stop at least 5 minutes before you have to if at all possible.
If you take the time the tachograph displays as break it’s always accurate, I’ve resumed work loads of times when the digital tachograph display has shown 15/30/45 minutes break and it’s never been wrong.
If you read the break as shown in this post it’s always accurate.
