Yet another wtd question ( From a non-driver)

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Hope someone can help settle an argument at work between 5 drivers who have all done there CPC course.

They all start work on a Monday at 5.30am and usually get back to the yard at between 2-3pm.
They only work Monday to Friday every week.
In that time they drive on average 5-7hrs and other work 2 - 3 hrs( Having there breaks) before they get back to the yard every day.

They then stay and load there lorries till 5.30pm.

So they are on duty from 5.30am till 5.30pm Monday to Friday every week which is a total of 60hrs on duty.

Some are saying this is fine but others are saying they are no allowed to work more than 48hrs per week. I have downloaded the drivers hours handbook from the VOSA website and in there it states they can work 13 hours per day provided they take 11hrs rest every day and a continuous 45hrs rest every week(I know this can be extended and reduced in some ways).
What I would like to know is who is right and is what they are doing at the moment legal or not.

Many Thanks

Gareth

2

Gazza77:
Hope someone can help settle an argument at work between 5 drivers who have all done there CPC course.

They all start work on a Monday at 5.30am and usually get back to the yard at between 2-3pm.
They only work Monday to Friday every week.
In that time they drive on average 5-7hrs and other work 2 - 3 hrs( Having there breaks) before they get back to the yard every day.

They then stay and load there lorries till 5.30pm.

So they are on duty from 5.30am till 5.30pm Monday to Friday every week which is a total of 60hrs on duty.

Some are saying this is fine but others are saying they are no allowed to work more than 48hrs per week. I have downloaded the drivers hours handbook from the VOSA website and in there it states they can work 13 hours per day provided they take 11hrs rest every day and a continuous 45hrs rest every week(I know this can be extended and reduced in some ways).
What I would like to know is who is right and is what they are doing at the moment legal or not.

Many Thanks

Gareth

Legally they can work a maximum of 60 hours per week, but that should not average more than 48 hours per week over the reference period.

So basically they’re all right in parts, you can work 60 hours in a week but could not legally do it every week because it would average out at more than 48 hours over the 17/26 week reference period.

Working Time - RT(WT)R 2005

Edit: The above reply is assuming that the drivers work in-scope of EU regulations.

3

Op is mixing wtd and drivers hours, also could deduct breaks.

4

Sorry forgot to say they all come under EU law.
Ok. Sort of understanding it a bit now.

The problem now is where do breaks come into it.

I have two taco printouts in front of me.

First one says 4h41m driving time, 57mins other work, 2hrs38mins break.
Start time 5.37am, back at yard at 12.53 stayed till 5.30pm to load lorry.

Second one 6h1min driving time, 2h36mins other work, 1h30mins break.
Start time 4.48am, back at yard at 1355 stayed till 5.30pm to load lorry

these are two different drivers and this is an average day for them an they do this 5 days a week, so according to the law they are well over there working time, Is that right?.

I sort of realize that im mixing working time and driving time but this is what im trying to establish is whether they can do these hours when they are nowhere near going over there driving time. It is the working time that we are all having trouble getting our heads round.

Thanks
Gareth

5

Forget about driving time if it’s not an issue.

AS drivers working to EU regulations we come under two main sets of regulations, the drivers hours rules (EC) 561/2006 and the working time regulations for mobile workers Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005, these are separate regulations, the fact that the drivers are complying with the drivers hours regulations does not mean that they are also compliant with the working time regulations.

A driver working to the RT(WT)R can do a maximum of 60 hours working time in a fixed week (midnight Sunday to midnight Sunday), and an average of 48 hours per week working time over the reference period.
Working time does not include breaks or POA, basically working time is classed as driving and other work.

Gazza77:
I have two taco printouts in front of me.

First one says 4h41m driving time, 57mins other work, 2hrs38mins break.
Start time 5.37am, back at yard at 12.53 stayed till 5.30pm to load lorry.

Second one 6h1min driving time, 2h36mins other work, 1h30mins break.
Start time 4.48am, back at yard at 1355 stayed till 5.30pm to load lorry

these are two different drivers and this is an average day for them an they do this 5 days a week, so according to the law they are well over there working time, Is that right?.

The first driver has done a shift of 11 hours 53 minutes but the tachograph is only showing 8 hours and 16 minutes, the second driver also appears to be losing some time that’s not showing on the printout, there appears to something wrong there :wink:

Lets take the first driver, he’s done a total shift of 11 hours 38 minutes, so minus the 2 hours 38 minutes break he’s booked would give him a total of 9 hours working time for the day.

The second driver has done a total shift of 12 hours 12 minutes of which 1 hour 38 minutes is booked as break, that leaves 10 hours 34 minutes working time for the day.

6

The lost time is because we done the printout when he got back to the yard not when he finished the day(sorry forgot to mention that)

So working out your working time is as simple as saying that your total amount of hours on duty minus your break time gives you your total.

One last thing, would it be classed as a break when they get back to the yard and sit down for 30 minutes drinking tea.

Thanks very much for all the info so far.

Gareth

7

Gazza77:
So working out your working time is as simple as saying that your total amount of hours on duty minus your break time gives you your total.

Yes, total shift time less breaks and POA (if they use POA) equals working time.

Gazza77:
would it be classed as a break when they get back to the yard and sit down for 30 minutes drinking tea

Sitting down drinking tea or coffee can definitely be regarded as a break, in fact it’s one of my favourite ways of having a break :smiley:

A beak is defined in the regulations as time that can be used exclusively for recuperation.

8

Thanks very much for all the info Tachograph. atleast I may be able to settle the argument now.

It is more than I got from VOSA, Apparently according to the email reply I got from them asking the same question as my original post, driving and working hours isn’t to do with them.

As for POA that could be most of the afternoon for them as they are stood around chatting for most of it(LOL).

Again thanks very much

Gareth

9

As your Post say’s your a NON DRIVER I’d keep stum and let em fight it out. dont you know drivers don’t like a smart arse non driver telling em the rules :wink: :wink:

10

Hi nick

Unfortunately I’m the warehouse Manager and I`m the one stuck in the middle and the one they have asked to sort it out. So I cant keep stum. All I need is an e-mail from VOSA so I have it in black and white from the supposed people who enforce these rules.

Thanks
Gareth

11

Gazza77:
Hi nick

Unfortunately I’m the warehouse Manager and I`m the one stuck in the middle and the one they have asked to sort it out. So I cant keep stum. All I need is an e-mail from VOSA so I have it in black and white from the supposed people who enforce these rules.

Thanks
Gareth

your W/house or the TM ■■

12

Warehouse. But Im in charge of making sure all the deliveries etc gets done so according to the drivers Im in charge of them.

13

Gazza77:
Warehouse. But Im in charge of making sure all the deliveries etc gets done so according to the drivers Im in charge of them.

No mate you don’t put your hand up to being in charge of anything outside your remit as the next thing is someone kills someone out on the road and as your seen by the drivers as the bloke who’s responsible for them you’ll get some of the ■■■■ …anything to do with drivers is the TM.
Are you the guy that gives out infringements to do with tacho’s and all other things to do with the trucks ie servicing mot’s etc ■■

14

Ok nick I see your point.

Problem is that the transport Manager is one of the drivers so he is not around to organise the deliveries for most of the day and my MD Has told me and everyone else including the transport Manager( who only handles the Maintenance and infringements) that it is down to me, so I have no choice, also all the drivers including the transport manager come to me if there is a problem with a delivery so I need to know if I can say to a driver that they can do it or not without them saying to me, I haven’t got enough time etc.