Yet another Cyclist killed when will it stop!

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
81

Rikki-UK:

I have never met not saw on any cycling forum a cyclist who things riding up the inside of a HGV is a good idea

And there is your problem, is that committed sensible cyclists who frequent cycling forums recognise the danger, its the ones who just jump on a bike that don’t.
There has been a massive industry funded campaign to educate truck drivers, even those who don’t use forums such as these, where is the education for cyclists?

The road transport industry is doing and paying for its part, but cyclists have to educate their own, Its not all down to us to do, cyclists as a movement have to get their act together and stop blaming others and refusing to see their own faults. the road transport industry is doing its share, what are you cyclists doing away from the internet to educate?

That makes sense, but there will always be idiots, on both sides, who do stupid things. You can educate and police all you like, but there is no cure for stupidity :open_mouth:

Lorry drivers who turn left on cyclists or go past without a safe distance between themselves and the cyclist are in the stupid category, the same applies to cyclists who tear up the inside of vehicles that are nose to tail so that any indicators are hidden by the other traffic.

82

Carryfast:
Assuming that we’ve supposedly got all these truck drivers running around the place who haven’t even learn’t yet that the safest place to keep cyclists is well ahead and not try to pass them,if you’re even thinking of making a turn or stopping for any reason and who aren’t driving trucks on the mirrors as they ( should have been ) taught from day 1,then how is that these same idiots seem to be able to not hit any other type of road user and street furniture etc etc on a regular basis :question: .

No they do contact street furniture and other vehicles on a regular basis probably 1000 times for every cyclist hit however “Lorry takes out bollard” doesn’t often get reported on.
Just look at the railing etc round towns nearly every one that has been there for any length of times is bent showing that there are many drivers who cant judge a corner safely anyway, however that is never going to be news.
I was driving a farm tractor the other day and indicated right early looked in the mirrors and a HGV approaching from behind didn’t slow down and overtook, now this happens allot normally cars mind.
luckily I managed to stop in time, even if there had been an accident because there’s a very slim chance any one would get hurt it would be dealt with by insurance and never added to any sort of statistic.

In the scheme of things that are relatively few cyclists killed on the whole (still too many mind) but nearly every one that involves a truck seems to get reputed where as many involving cars or vans don’t.

A friend of mine (18 )was killed van a year or so ago that was overtaking a truck coming the other way, that accident got very little publicity

83

Rikki-UK:

I have never met not saw on any cycling forum a cyclist who things riding up the inside of a HGV is a good idea

And there is your problem, is that committed sensible cyclists who frequent cycling forums recognise the danger, its the ones who just jump on a bike that don’t.
There has been a massive industry funded campaign to educate truck drivers, even those who don’t use forums such as these, where is the education for cyclists?

The road transport industry is doing and paying for its part, but cyclists have to educate their own, Its not all down to us to do, cyclists as a movement have to get their act together and stop blaming others and refusing to see their own faults. the road transport industry is doing its share, what are you cyclists doing away from the internet to educate?

I understand what your saying however in truth it isn’t my problem, I cant police of speak for other cyclists especially those round London as I am from the north, however there seems to be a view on here that all cyclists are to blame for the issues and don’t always get the respect and patience they deserve on the roads.

I will admit that there needs to be many improvements to the way cyclists are trained however your average cyclist cant actually do anything about that if you see what I mean, it needs to come from government.
The cyclist body’s such as British Cycling are doing allot to promote safe cycling and training however as you say its targeting the converted who on the whole are already safe, the few that cause the issues are generally not cyclists they are more commuters who are not represented by any cycling groups

84

Rikki-UK:
The road transport industry is doing and paying for its part, but cyclists have to educate their own, Its not all down to us to do, cyclists as a movement have to get their act together and stop blaming others and refusing to see their own faults. the road transport industry is doing its share, what are you cyclists doing away from the internet to educate?

A very valid point, but again it shows an ‘us and them’ divide.
No cyclist on a forum is going to admit to being reckless in the same way as no truck driver will admit to being untrustworthy round cyclists.

By joining forces on this just maybe theres a chance to get some positive action, sure theres shops, cycling clubs etc that have new members that would benefit from some kind of mutual co-operation and joint campaign.

Also as highlighted above truck drivers should be aware that cyclists (well fit ones) can comfortably achieve speeds of 20-25mph on a flat road and that racing to the turning philosophy can end in disaster.
Course theres some slow/chubby buggers who amaze me they can even get on a bike, but we all have to start somewhere. :blush:

85

AHT:

Carryfast:
Assuming that we’ve supposedly got all these truck drivers running around the place who haven’t even learn’t yet that the safest place to keep cyclists is well ahead and not try to pass them,if you’re even thinking of making a turn or stopping for any reason and who aren’t driving trucks on the mirrors as they ( should have been ) taught from day 1,then how is that these same idiots seem to be able to not hit any other type of road user and street furniture etc etc on a regular basis :question: .

No they do contact street furniture and other vehicles on a regular basis probably 1000 times for every cyclist hit however “Lorry takes out bollard” doesn’t often get reported on.

In most cases if drivers are turning in on traffic the results won’t be a lot different in the case of cars or cyclists let alone pedestrians.The fact is it’s going to get messy ( possibly very ) if an artic or rigid turns in if there’s a car etc etc at the side.It’s just that in the case of a car instead of being flattened directly by the truck’s wheels the driver would,possibly,be in a similar situation as being in a car that’s been put in a wrecking yard crusher depending on the circumstances.In the case of street furniture it’s not always a case of soft bollards it can be anything including sign posts traffic signals armco barriers and brick walls etc etc etc.The average guvnor isn’t going to be very happy about keeping any driver who gets a record for bringing back damaged trailers and bills from the council for damaged street furniture being that such collisions won’t go unnoticed at the scene.Let alone accidents involving flattened cars etc etc and resulting casualties.

Make no mistake this issue seems to be all about a specific cyclist v truck/bus situation.Bearing in mind that it doesn’t seem to be a car,pedestrian,motor cyclist or street furniture issue.As I’ve said even at school age I knew that the road was no place to ride a cycle and that was just an issue of being worried about car traffic let alone trucks or buses.

While on that note have you ever seen the type of mirrors which were fitted to an old RT bus for example of the type which I’d have been overtaken by and shared the road with on my way to school if I’d have been stupid enough to cycle on the roads.Which just leaves the question was the fact that those mirrors didn’t seem to have been a significant hazard to anyone,all because of better drivers or more intelligent other road users. :bulb:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … RT_Bus.JPG

86

AHT:
I will admit that there needs to be many improvements to the way cyclists are trained however your average cyclist cant actually do anything about that if you see what I mean, it needs to come from government.
The cyclist body’s such as British Cycling are doing allot to promote safe cycling and training however as you say its targeting the converted who on the whole are already safe, the few that cause the issues are generally not cyclists they are more commuters who are not represented by any cycling groups

You could open up an entirely different debate on who is and who isn’t a cyclist. But from my point of view, everyone on a bicycle is a cyclist. I think it’s very narrow minded of anyone on here to refer to cyclists as stupid or idiots.

It’s not stupid to be un-educated about blind spots etc, yet some drivers in here seem to think they have the right to dish out labels. Very insensitive given that some cyclists would still be alive if they hadn’t been killed by a truck or truck driver. It also alienates people who might consider serious debate or dialogue.

What I think should happen in the present period, is to ask cyclists why they move up the inside of motor vehicles, ask them what they think they gain - find out how many do so knowing there are dangers. At least then we can start to understand some cyclists better.

Without doubt there’s much room for improvement on both sides, but again - just my opinion, if you (a truck driver) are in charge of what is essentially a very dangerous piece of equipment, then the greater share of the responsibility is with the truck driver, no truck driver is ever gonna get crushed to death colliding with a bike. At the same time, it is ridiculous to suggest that large numbers of cyclists ride their bikes to work on a suicide mission - as someone suggested earlier.

Clearly from the things that have been said in this thread, many of the drivers see the cyclists being less equal and entirely to blame, whilst saying that the HGV industry is doing all it can and if not ignoring what cyclists are doing - assuming that cyclists are collectively doing nothing at all.

There needs to be a complete culture and attitude change towards cyclists in the HGV driving industry - time to start acting responsibly, right now there is very little sign of that being posted in here.

I agree with albion1971, usually it’s 50/50. From what I’ve seen over the years - most incidents would have been avoided if one of the parties involved had been paying better attention.

87

Boomerang Dave:

AHT:
I will admit that there needs to be many improvements to the way cyclists are trained however your average cyclist cant actually do anything about that if you see what I mean, it needs to come from government.
The cyclist body’s such as British Cycling are doing allot to promote safe cycling and training however as you say its targeting the converted who on the whole are already safe, the few that cause the issues are generally not cyclists they are more commuters who are not represented by any cycling groups

You could open up an entirely different debate on who is and who isn’t a cyclist. But from my point of view, everyone on a bicycle is a cyclist. I think it’s very narrow minded of anyone on here to refer to cyclists as stupid or idiots.

It’s not stupid to be un-educated about blind spots etc, yet some drivers in here seem to think they have the right to dish out labels. Very insensitive given that some cyclists would still be alive if they hadn’t been killed by a truck or truck driver. It also alienates people who might consider serious debate or dialogue.

What I think should happen in the present period, is to ask cyclists why they move up the inside of motor vehicles, ask them what they think they gain - find out how many do so knowing there are dangers. At least then we can start to understand some cyclists better.

Without doubt there’s much room for improvement on both sides, but again - just my opinion, if you (a truck driver) are in charge of what is essentially a very dangerous piece of equipment, then the greater share of the responsibility is with the truck driver, no truck driver is ever gonna get crushed to death colliding with a bike. At the same time, it is ridiculous to suggest that large numbers of cyclists ride their bikes to work on a suicide mission - as someone suggested earlier.

Clearly from the things that have been said in this thread, many of the drivers see the cyclists being less equal and entirely to blame, whilst saying that the HGV industry is doing all it can and if not ignoring what cyclists are doing - assuming that cyclists are collectively doing nothing at all.

There needs to be a complete culture and attitude change towards cyclists in the HGV driving industry - time to start acting responsibly, right now there is very little sign of that being posted in here.

I agree with albion1971, usually it’s 50/50. From what I’ve seen over the years - most incidents would have been avoided if one of the parties involved had been paying better attention.

What’s actually needed is for every road user who drives a motor vehicle to realise that it’s us who are being victimised and being made mugs of by a bunch of politically driven zealots.So you say that everyone who rides a cycle is a cyclist which means that I’ve been a cyclist at least at some point while still using a cycle occasionally off road.No surprise that there’s no room in the politically driven zealots’ agenda for any ‘cyclist’ who thinks that cyclists should be removed by law from the roads wherever possible as opposed to the total opposite agenda of those raving green party types who are on a stated mission/crusade to ‘re claim the streets/roads’. :unamused:

88

Carryfast, the vast majority of cyclists are not “We want the roads back nutters” unfortunately the squeakiest wheel gets the most grease :bulb:

89

I wonder how many of the cyclists killed were wearing footwear with cleats fitted.The other day I witnessed a cyclist
wearing these, loose his balance and not being able to put his feet on the ground fell in front of a car just about to pull away from the lights. He could have easily fallen between unit and trailer.

90

There needs to be a complete culture and attitude change towards HGV’s from cyclists - time to start acting responsibly, right now there is very little sign of that being posted in here

.

Turned that on its head and fixed it for you- theres only so much a truck driver can do if a cyclist deliberately puts themselves in danger - which many do . we are getting our act together what are you doing? because from here it seems bugger all apart from blaming someone else for your own cycling communities failings.

I have had a good look around a number of cycling forums tonight, and too be fair on some threads they have stated that the cyclist took a risk that they shouldn’t have, on not one forum have I seen , even when they say the cyclist is in the wrong any concern at all for the truck driver and what he has to live with

I also see very little attempt at meaningful dialogue, just your big large and bullies while we are all poor innocents .

Trucks and Bikes are here to stay, we either find a way to make things safer for everyone , by dialogue and education, or cyclists will continue making stupid mistakes and drivers will continue to make errors around bikes

91

phillfix:
I wonder how many of the cyclists killed were wearing footwear with cleats fitted.The other day I witnessed a cyclist
wearing these, loose his balance and not being able to put his feet on the ground fell in front of a car just about to pull away from the lights. He could have easily fallen between unit and trailer.

Must confess when I see 'em trying to walk round at a tea bar or suchlike in those silly shoes I get a fit of the giggles; specially if one of them’s also got one of those fairings on his helmet that look like a cross between a dunce’s cap and a gimp mask.

92

A while back, just to get another 7 hours towards the dreaded DCPC, I did the TfL cycle awareness course. An eye opener I must say, on both sides of the coin. It was a bit tedious and at some stages of the day, seemed like a free ad campaign for the dreaded Boris bikes. But I must say, some of the videos we were shown did make a lot of those present gasp. Bear in mind that the course was there to “educate” us, the LGV driver, so it wasn’t an “anti-cyclist course”. On one film clip, we saw a cyclist battle his way, in traffic, up between the near side of truck and a bridge wall, there was no path but on the left of this wall was a passageway marked up as a “cycle route”. Why didn’t he use it, why risk his life ? It had been placed there and marked up for HIS safety. !!! During the course, a question was raised, " How can we help stop these accidents happen? How can we educate all of these road users? The outstanding answer was “education” of the awareness of the dangers especially for the cyclists. We saw many CCTV clips, showing errors and dangerous manouvers by all road users, a lot of risks taken by cyclist with cars and vans, not just lorries. One person said, why on earth don’t they show this on the television? We have ads for drink driving around Christmas, ads for “Think once ,Think twice, Think BIKE”, why not an educative campaign , aimed at cyclists to “warn” them of the “dangers” of using the roads, showing them that taking risks is dangerous. Now I remember when I was a child, we had advisory films on the television warning about all sorts of things,
not speaking to a stranger,
Green Cross Code etc.,etc.
Within this subject there is a link to YouTube videos of Stupid Cyclists , I would love to see a National campaign set up, to include these videos on television, plus maybe a press campaign, to include the shocking pics of the aftermath of accidents, to educate and make aware of the dangers to cyclists. Not to shame them, but to ““educate”” them and make them ““aware”” of the dangers of cycling on busy roads in built up cities, especially London. We, the lorry driver, are being educated through all sorts of ways all the time, we have all sorts of aids within the cab, even near side step cameras now, but there is nothing there to make aware of the dangers to the cyclist.
I have read all of the posts on this subject and agree with lots made on both sides pro/anti cyclist , pro/anti driver (there are some people that I think are talking out of their round pieces though, no names mentioned). We all need to get together, work together to help stop these horrible tragedies happening. Hit hard and show the stupid antics of “some” stupid cyclists are dangerous, educate cyclists and show them that taking these silly risks could end up with them ending up in either an ambulance, or sadly and most probably, in a hearse.
It hits home to me, as some years ago I lost an aged aunt, riding her bike (please no condolence messages) when she was run over by an artic, in the very nice port town of …
Saint Malo, in Brittany, France, not here in London, so it happens everywhere, she wasn’t aware of the dangers? maybe, he wasn’t aware of her? maybe. Who knows ?

93

If I’ve passed a cyclist (leaving them plenty of room) in stop start traffic I will, if it’s going to turn into a cat and mouse race between lorry and bike, try to prevent them coming back up the inside by hugging the kerb. I do this to protect both the cyclist and myself from a potential problem.

The cyclists get all bent out of shape over this as I’m impeding their progress, but not as much as they impede mine by being in my way at every set of traffic lights as they keep squeezing up the inside of my lorry.

My stopping them is more about their safety though, I’m in traffic, so not going anywhere fast anyway, but I would like to do it without fear of some idiot putting themselves in mortal danger every couple of hundred yards.

The bicycle is only a faster form of transport if it is ridden without following the rules that other road users have to abide by.

Busy cities at peak traffic times are where most of the lorry/bike collisions occur, a bunch of riders, even three abreast on a single carriageway are a nuisance for sure, but passing them is a one off and as soon as you do pass, they’re a dot in the mirrors in no time.

The ones that are on a mission to arrive at their destination in record time in heavy traffic are the ones that need educating, unfortunately their bike is a means to an end, rather than a hobby, so the riders are unlikely to take part in cycling forums and the like.

Policing bad behaviour by cyclists in cities is, in my opinion, the way forward.

Proper cyclists who use good road manners and ride safely will have nothing to fear from this type if enforcement and should be encouraging it so as not to be tarred with the same brush as the lunatic fringe :bulb:

94

newmercman:
Carryfast, the vast majority of cyclists are not “We want the roads back nutters” unfortunately the squeakiest wheel gets the most grease :bulb:

If that’s the case then they won’t mind the law being changed to put them where they belong off the roads and onto shared pedestrian/cycleways wherever and whenever possible.Which is already the case in many places.But no surprise they don’t want to use them and the government won’t make them compulsory.While in other cases,as those examples which I’ve posted,the law is happy to have cyclists in danger running alongside trucks and buses while there’s a perfectly useable pavement at the side of them being wasted. :unamused:

95

Have you any idea how many bikes use the roads in central london or how busy many pavements can be such as where this incident happened. It would be a nightmare.
A lot of the problem is you have you dedicated cyclist who is in to it as a hobby who is pretty clued up but now there are lots of il save money by cycling to work and il hire a boris bike types who have little or no idea what they are doing.
What needs looking at is why is it so often a tipper lorry involved over other types of hgv or buses.

96

kr79:
Have you any idea how many bikes use the roads in central london or how busy many pavements can be such as where this incident happened. It would be a nightmare.
A lot of the problem is you have you dedicated cyclist who is in to it as a hobby who is pretty clued up but now there are lots of il save money by cycling to work and il hire a boris bike types who have little or no idea what they are doing.
What needs looking at is why is it so often a tipper lorry involved over other types of hgv or buses.

Tippers are the most common lorry on the roads of Central London during the day, most of the rest are puddle jumpers doing small store deliveries, the other big stuff usually comes in at night when the bikes are off the roads and traffic is lighter.

97

Rikki-UK:

There needs to be a complete culture and attitude change towards HGV’s from cyclists - time to start acting responsibly, right now there is very little sign of that being posted in here

.

Turned that on its head and fixed it for you- theres only so much a truck driver can do if a cyclist deliberately puts themselves in danger - which many do . we are getting our act together what are you doing? because from here it seems bugger all apart from blaming someone else for your own cycling communities failings.

I have had a good look around a number of cycling forums tonight, and too be fair on some threads they have stated that the cyclist took a risk that they shouldn’t have, on not one forum have I seen , even when they say the cyclist is in the wrong any concern at all for the truck driver and what he has to live with

I also see very little attempt at meaningful dialogue, just your big large and bullies while we are all poor innocents .

Trucks and Bikes are here to stay, we either find a way to make things safer for everyone , by dialogue and education, or cyclists will continue making stupid mistakes and drivers will continue to make errors around bikes

Turning around what I have said hasn’t fixed anything. For starters, I’m hardly what you would call a regular cyclist anymore. I still have the bike I bought when I lived in Holland, but I hardly ever use it.

What I am though, is a qualified HGV driver with a vast amount of experience. And what you cannot turn around is this:

It hasn’t gone un-noticed that you are putting the lions share of responsibility with the main victims - whilst watering down the responsibility of the drivers… so I’ve put that right for you:

Trucks and Bikes are here to stay, we either find a way to make things safer for everyone, by dialogue and education, or cyclists will continue making mistakes and drivers will continue to make mistakes too.

When you call the cyclists idiots, you actually (intended or not) do no justice to your argument, they are not stupid, they are un-educated about what the driver can or cannot see. Calling them stupid or what they do stupid is seen by some as an attempt to dilute the responsibility of the so called professional driver. I’m pretty sure you realise that when a cyclist makes a mistake, the cyclist gets injured or killed - when a driver makes a mistake, a cyclist gets injured or killed - no turning that around is there?
And I’m notwithstanding the stress suffered by the driver which I have previously highlighted.

When I was a much younger driver, I was sat at a T-Junction with my cab pointed slightly left (waiting to turn left), I was actually in a rural location with not another person in sight, I set off and as I pulled forward… I had to straighten up slightly - bringing into view the cyclist who had squeezed up the inside of the truck - she was attempting to climb off of her bike as the side of the trailer closed in on her. I hit the anchors, and this was her lucky day, this driver (me) had made sure there was sufficient straps holding the packs of pickled and oiled steel sheets - which did move toward her. I was out of the cab and around to her in a flash, she was young… alive… very frightened - no more frightened than me, I looked at the space left between her and the kerb and the way the steel had moved and realised just how close she had come to meeting her maker. She was a very lovely young lady, not stupid - she had as much right to be there on her harmless journey as anyone. We both came away unscathed and better educated.

If the word stupid or idiot has to be used, it should only be used to describe those who call themselves professionals, but think they have nothing to learn, or seem to think the entire responsibility should be held by the major victims. I do though agree with you that educating both parties is the way forward, in the vast majority of situations better educated or more experienced drivers will drive or position their trucks in a manner to avoid such blind spots and take extra care when in these types of situations.

While I agree that education and dialog is the immediate way forward, I will never be moved from my position of re-designing the network to accommodated cyclists of all ages, they have as much if not more rights to use the road compared to motors. I’ve seen and lived the Dutch cycle lane system - this is about saving people’s lives - including children - who should have a right to a safe journey to and from schools etc.

I would strongly encourage cyclists to demonstrate in the same way the Dutch did, and I would encourage truck drivers to join that struggle and stop pointing at cyclists and calling them stupid.

Now I can’t be arse’d proof reading the above… I’m sure you’ll get the picture.

98

Boomerang Dave, that post raises a few points.

Firstly I don’t recall anyone saying that ALL cyclists are idiots. You can call it ignorance if you like, but saying that you are unaware of a vehicle’s blind spots is not really any reason to ride in the fashion that some riders do. Namely tear arsing along as if they were on fire.

Just as people will refer to the small minority of bad lorry drivers, the same people will refer to the small minority of bad cyclists. Everyone gets tarred with the same brush. That is what is happening here, coincidentally it is usually the cyclist tearing down the inside that gets hit by the lorry turning left.

Secondly, in your near miss, there were three factors, the first being the improper positioning of your unit prior to the left turn, although you would think that would indeed indicate to anyone with half a brain that you were about to turn left, it also restricted your view from your mirrors.

Then you have the complete absence of common sense from the cyclist, as said, you were obviously making a left turn, but still the cyclist put themself into a position of extreme danger.

Far more worrying is that your load shifted, that was 100% your fault, anything carried in ir on a lorry should be secured to the point where it cannot move, not only has it always been law to do so, it has always been common sense. That you had to stop suddenly or that the load was oiled sheet steel is no excuse. You say you used enough straps, but you clearly never or the load wouldn’t have shifted.

I agree that the Dutch system is infinitely better than the British, but it is not just the cycle paths that make it better, it is also the behaviour of the cyclists when they are sharing the road with motor vehicles.

I have driven lorries in many different cities around the World and none of the cyclists have the same mentality as the ones in London, with the exception of the bike couriers in New York City, not only do they put their own lives in jeopardy, they also have little regard for pedestrians or anything trivial like a red traffic light.

There was even a movie made about the bike couriers in NYC, it was full of Hollywood Drama, but some of the scenes were familiar to anybody who has seen these nutters/idiots in action.

I refer to them as nutters/idiots, for the simple reason that they are nutters/idiots, there’s no generalisation there, I’m not referring to cyclists as a group, just the idiotic ones, of which, like bad lorry drivers, there are many…

99

I agree with most of what you have said here, but I also expect you understand what adding the words some or some small number to the front of a line does…?

There is nothing straps or chains will do to completely prevent the movement of pickled and oiled sheet steel, especially if you brake hard. Fact is, regardless of how much experience you have, in some degree or another - all loads shift/move, on every vehicle, on every journey - denying that is like denying the world is round. The job of the driver isn’t so much to prevent the un-preventable, it’s to make it safe - which I did.

Last time I was in NY - about 25 years ago… red didn’t mean stop… it meant - you pay’s your money - you take’s your chances LOL. :laughing:

100

I’ve done that oiled steel, it is evil to keep on a trailer, you can’t chain it tight enough because it damages the edges, even with edge protection and straps are not man enough for the job.

I used to build a headboard with two chains in a X pattern and some 6"x6" blocks of wood, it was about all you can do with it, apart from driving like a little old lady lol