figure this one out 
i have been doing a lot of double manned runs recently as in several months, normally with another subbie who i have known for a few years. he knows the law and sticks to it. his card had a fault a few weeks ago and sent it back, meanwhile we were still double manned but only with my card. the other day i got picked up for a pile of infringements and almost all were during this period. we swapped my card as if we had one each but driving time was not reset and neither was working time. this was put down to double manning issues and was accepted as a reasonable explanation.
we always work the same way ie just before 6 hours working time we swap drivers and have had no infringements working this way but now i am being told that 1. a 30 minute break must be completed before reaching 6 hours DUTY time (can be 2x15s) and that we should be taking breaks as normal which we all know is untrue (their own VOSA guidelines say that the first 45 minutes of POA counts as a break for the second driver 
). and 2. there was questions raised about the need to swap cards rather than changing driver 2s mode to driving which isnt possible as it stays on POA. fortunately i was proven correct on that issue.
it is my understanding that we need to start a 15 minute break before 6 hours working time but they are adamant that i must complete a 30 minute break before 6 hours duty time. if they are right, where are the infringements? i did raise this question but was fobbed off.
who is right?
thank you. i have a document to collect from my mate tomorrow to confirm but this is frustrating me. i proved the trainer wrong about the requirement to swap cards when double manned and i will prove him wrong on this although since he couldnt answer my question about missing infringements, i suspect he knows i am right otherwise he would have given me an answer. i dont mind being proven wrong but not when i can prove i am right
You must not work more than 6 hours without a break. If you work between 6 and 9 hours, you must have a total of 30 minutes, which may be split into 2 x 15 minute breaks,
they are saying a completed 30 minute break before 6 hours duty time, not working time ie i can only be on duty up to 5 1/2 hours without a break regardless of activities ie POA/driving/other work
scanny77:
they are saying a completed 30 minute break before 6 hours duty time, not working time ie i can only be on duty up to 5 1/2 hours without a break regardless of activities ie POA/driving/other work
They’re idiots. It is work not duty that triggers WTD breaks, you could do a shift of 8 or 9 hours and with POA and less than 4.5 hours driving not legally require a break at all. Until recently I was doing an 8+ hour shift every night with less than 4 hours driving and around 4 hours POA and never booked any break. Still not actually booking break but the first 45 minutes of my POA is now assumed to be break when previously it wasn’t.
it’s never been a case of 30 minutes before 6 hours work is exceeded and it doesn’t even have to be 30 minutes before exceeding 9 hours if you will have more than 9 hours work in the shift.
Here’s a badge you can wear while talking to this ‘trainer’.
I hope this helps.
so i am right with swapping drivers at just under every 6 hours working time on double manned runs and taking a 15 minute break before 6 hours working time when single manned then a further 30 minutes before 9 hours (usually around 7 hours anyway on multi drop)?
don’t worry about it. the WTD has been suspended. david cameraman, and angelina meercat have sorted that out.
scanny77:
so i am right with swapping drivers at just under every 6 hours working time on double manned runs and taking a 15 minute break before 6 hours working time when single manned then a further 30 minutes before 9 hours (usually around 7 hours anyway on multi drop)?
When multi-manned VOSA will count the first 45 minutes of POA whilst you’re in the passenger seat as break, so if you change drivers before 6 hours working time there shouldn’t be a problem as long as your card is in slot two for more than 15 minutes.
When single manned you should have a break of at-least 15 minutes before exceeding 6 hours working time and another 15 minute break to be completed before the end of shift if you’re working time will not exceed 9 hours.
If your working time will exceed 9 hours your break/breaks should total at-least 45 minutes, this can be taken in segments of no less than 15 minutes, at no time during the shift should your working time from the last break exceed 6 hours without a break.
In the scenario you’ve mentioned there’s no need to have the 30 minute break before 9 hours.
single manned is usually 12 hours+ so i take a 15 before 6 hours and another 30 within a couple of hours which makes up 45 before 9 hours. double manned we swap just under 6 hours then again before the next 6 hours is up, unless 4 1/2 hours driving is up of course
thanks for all the help
I cant see anything wrong legally but some companys are giving their drivers an infingment for breech of company policy as well.So is it a company policy you take 30 mins ?
Just a thought.
Long distance clara:
I cant see anything wrong legally but some companys are giving their drivers an infingment for breech of company policy as well.So is it a company policy you take 30 mins ?
Just a thought.
It’s usually only company policy when the driver trainer has been proved wrong but doesn’t want to admit it so claims it’s company policy as a face saving escape.
If you read Ritchie’s post it seems it is there jack of knowledge if the rules otherwise when he correctly challenged it they would have agreed he was correct but their policy was different from the regulations.
The vast majority of trainers haven’t got a clue and are happy to peddle ■■■■■■■■rather than learn the rules.
If this helps, so be it.
Coffeeholic:
Long distance clara:
I cant see anything wrong legally but some companys are giving their drivers an infingment for breech of company policy as well.So is it a company policy you take 30 mins ?
Just a thought.
It’s usually only company policy when the driver trainer has been proved wrong but doesn’t want to admit it so claims it’s company policy as a face saving escape.
If you read Ritchie’s post it seems it is there lack of knowledge of the rules otherwise when he correctly challenged it they would have agreed he was correct but their policy was different from the regulations.
The vast majority of trainers haven’t got a clue and are happy to peddle ■■■■■■■■rather than learn the rules.
If this helps, so be it.
Having sat through a DCPC module very recently, given by an unemployed bus driver using materials that were 2 years out of date I fear for the quality of training being offered
I am unsure of what materials he was talking about, but the above was a post from a driver who had taken a DCPC recently. Of course, he could easily have been talking about EU hours legislation which are almost 5 years out of date
they never listen to us Neil. i did a double manned run on my birthday with my mate. he looked at the run and pointed out some mistakes and advised putting the trailer on the bay and reloading it. we were told in no uncertain terms to do it as per the manifest. 2 drops very late and 2 refused due to missing the boat to orkney. the boss blew a fuse at the warehouse supervisor who thought he knew better than those of us who come face to face with the customers
even today i turned up for a single manned run. i looked at it and pointed out that its a double manned run which i do regularly on a saturday. 3 hours to aberdeen, 3 hours to duffhill and back, 3 hours back. that leaves 1 hour to do 4 shops with all the stop/start traffic lights, roundabouts etc etc etc. no driver available and i wasnt due back til 4am tomorrow. it was routed as a night out but no one told me. it turned out ok anyway due to a fault with the unit taking up enough time for a spare driver to turn up but again, i was proven correct. just over 10 hours driving time. a single driver would have double the workload at each shop so working time would have been an issue anyway. next time i will have my night out gear and just keep quiet. i dont mind being paid 8 hours sunday rate to run back from kinross or dunfermline. no rescue if i hit 15 hours and i have a funny feeling i might just run out of duty time next time 
scanny77:
next time i will have my night out gear and just keep quiet. i dont mind being paid 8 hours sunday rate to run back from kinross or dunfermline. no rescue if i hit 15 hours and i have a funny feeling i might just run out of duty time next time
That’s the only way, use the regulations to your advantage. Good man.
they have a habit of creating new ‘company policies’ then changing their minds when they realise that messing us around is shooting themselves in the foot. i had an accident a few weeks back in the high winds. pulled into a layby to let it die down a bit and walked round to pull the nearside mirror back out as it had blown in. the wind caught me and blew me into the trailer causing very minor injuries. i mentioned it in conversation as i didnt think it was worth reporting (non-blameworthy or predictable) but the forms came out and i was informed i would require re-assessment even though the vehicle wasnt even running. a few days later i get a call, its been over-ruled can you do a double manned shift tomorrow?
the next one related to a faulty digitach. Jasons card was faulty and was sent away. friday shift, different site, still DHL, no problem. printout before and after shift for them and him. saturday morning, 2am, sorry, no card no drive! until he pointed out that they had to find a driver before 3am or i cant go out double manned. they let it go this time! on return he enquired about this and a phone call to the boss confirmed this policy. that is until he was told that it would mess up their monday and tuesday runs as we were both on the double manned runs again. apparently that rule doesnt apply to double manned runs but he cant drive on his own 
we are now at the stage where we just agree to whatever rubbish they come out with as it always seems to extend our shifts. monitoring speed limits, not allowed to correct their planning errors, insisting on breaks that we dont legally need. its all money in our pockets 