example
holiday year starts 1st april, take 5 days off. this is say 3/4 of the way through a 17 week period and the hours are averaging at say 52
zero days from later in the year/bank hols non statutory days are used to place on the workers record 5 zero days
workers comes back after the mon to fri off with a reduced average due to the zero days
union say this is fraudulent record keeping and are aware of only 1 company doing this ( 1 !!!) and that the days to reduce to 48 in this case should be example april 1 off for 5 days then the following week paid time off for 2 days to reduce to 48 ish not for the company to willy nilly use days from here there and everywhere
dvsa say that the record does match what has been done, later in the year ,yes , say worker had a further 2 weeks off and has 4 bank hols under his belt
No-one bothered really and if that’s all that you have to worry about cracking on. Personally I’ll continue other threads drinking a nice brew.
There you go you now have 3 comments and not one of them really interested…
ROG:
As WTD is a company responsibility why are you concerned?
He’s concerned because he’s getting shafted and losing out.
Surely you can see that beyond your constant banging on about no one cares about the WTD?
How does he lose money …
I didn’t say he was losing money did I?
He’s saying he could have had two paid days off next week to bring his average down but instead the company have used non statutory holiday days to reduced his average. He is concerned he could have been paid for two days staying at home, which anyone would be happy with being paid to not go to work, and he has lost out on that because of the way the company have used the holiday days and he’s asking if that is legal.
nick2008:
I thought it had to be non statuary holidays as these don’t count towards the WTD, as Statuary holidays / sickness accumulates hrs under the WTD …
Correct, and that’s what both the OP and I said.
felix:
zero days from later in the year/bank hols non statutory days are used to place on the workers record 5 zero days
workers comes back after the mon to fri off with a reduced average due to the zero days
Coffeeholic:
He’s saying he could have had two paid days off next week to bring his average down but instead the company have used non statutory holiday days to reduced his average.
nick2008:
I thought it had to be non statuary holidays as these don’t count towards the WTD, as Statuary holidays / sickness accumulates hrs under the WTD …
Correct, and that’s what both the OP and I said.
felix:
zero days from later in the year/bank hols non statutory days are used to place on the workers record 5 zero days
workers comes back after the mon to fri off with a reduced average due to the zero days
Coffeeholic:
He’s saying he could have had two paid days off next week to bring his average down but instead the company have used non statutory holiday days to reduced his average.
Well I thought I read you right I just don’t understand the problem .
nick2008:
I thought it had to be non statuary holidays as these don’t count towards the WTD, as Statuary holidays / sickness accumulates hrs under the WTD …
Correct, and that’s what both the OP and I said.
felix:
zero days from later in the year/bank hols non statutory days are used to place on the workers record 5 zero days
workers comes back after the mon to fri off with a reduced average due to the zero days
Coffeeholic:
He’s saying he could have had two paid days off next week to bring his average down but instead the company have used non statutory holiday days to reduced his average.
Well I thought I read you right I just don’t understand the problem .
His complaint is they have used 5 non statutory days, such as Bank Holidays, from later in his holiday year to bring his average down now for this reference period. If they hadn’t done that and just used the statutory days he had taken, counted as 8 hours each for the WTD or 48 hoyrs if it was a full week, then he could have got a couple of days at home, on pay, next week to bring the average down and he feels he is missing out as a result. A couple of days being paid to not work, who wouldn’t want that?
Can’t see that as thought if they payed they had to count it. They should or he should have asked to reduced his hours to compensate and bring hours down.
Christmas I don’t get some people wanting to work 60a week then want paying for sitting at home
nick2008:
Can’t see that as thought if they payed they had to count it. They should or he should have asked to reduced his hours to compensate and bring hours down.
Christmas I don’t get some people wanting to work 60a week then want paying for sitting at home
Being paid for it makes no difference to counting it for the WTD or not, POA doesn’t count but you get paid for that.
Companies try that excuse to avoid paying drivers when they’ve pushed them so they are over the average and need to bring it down.
He could sit at home for a couple of days on pay to bring the average down but the company seem to have selected days that will count as zero hours but won’t actually occur until much later in his holiday year to reduce it now.
You don’t know he wanted to work 60 hours a week, his average is 52 and its up to the company to monitor and control it so he averages 48 or less and if they mess up so they have to stand him down on pay that’s their problem. Why should he lose out?
It might come back in his favour later in the year when he is over and has no non statutory days left but that’s an unknown factor and at the moment he feels he has been shafted and is losing out.
I have no idea if the company can legally use non statutory days such as Bank Holudays that haven’t yet happened in this way; how would it work if he was to leave the company before they rolled round for instance?
nick2008:
Can’t see that as thought if they payed they had to count it. They should or he should have asked to reduced his hours to compensate and bring hours down.
Christmas I don’t get some people wanting to work 60a week then want paying for sitting at home
Being paid for it makes no difference to counting it for the WTD or not, POA doesn’t count but you get paid for that.
Companies try that excuse to avoid paying drivers when they’ve pushed them so they are over the average and need to bring it down.
He could sit at home for a couple of days on pay to bring the average down but the company seem to have selected days that will count as zero hours but won’t actually occur until much later in his holiday year to reduce it now.
You don’t know he wanted to work 60 hours a week, his average is 52 and its up to the company to monitor and control it so he averages 48 or less and if they mess up so they have to stand him down on pay that’s their problem. Why should he lose out?
It might come back in his favour later in the year when he is over and has no non statutory days left but that’s an unknown factor and at the moment he feels he has been shafted and is losing out.
I have no idea if the company can legally use non statutory days such as Bank Holudays that haven’t yet happened in this way; how would it work if he was to leave the company before they rolled round for instance?
Coffee had a look through the legislation, as you said I can’t see how they can use non statutory days that have not yet occurred.
The other thing is I can’t see anywhere where it says that a company has to pay for the days a driver have to take off either, to bring down their working time down.
Just a thought!!!
nick2008:
Can’t see that as thought if they payed they had to count it. They should or he should have asked to reduced his hours to compensate and bring hours down.
Christmas I don’t get some people wanting to work 60a week then want paying for sitting at home
Being paid for it makes no difference to counting it for the WTD or not, POA doesn’t count but you get paid for that.
Companies try that excuse to avoid paying drivers when they’ve pushed them so they are over the average and need to bring it down.
He could sit at home for a couple of days on pay to bring the average down but the company seem to have selected days that will count as zero hours but won’t actually occur until much later in his holiday year to reduce it now.
You don’t know he wanted to work 60 hours a week, his average is 52 and its up to the company to monitor and control it so he averages 48 or less and if they mess up so they have to stand him down on pay that’s their problem. Why should he lose out?
It might come back in his favour later in the year when he is over and has no non statutory days left but that’s an unknown factor and at the moment he feels he has been shafted and is losing out.
I have no idea if the company can legally use non statutory days such as Bank Holudays that haven’t yet happened in this way; how would it work if he was to leave the company before they rolled round for instance?
Coffee had a look through the legislation, as you said I can’t see how they can use non statutory days that have not yet occurred.
The other thing is I can’t see anywhere where it says that a company has to pay for the days a driver have to take off either, to bring down their working time down.
Just a thought!!!
There nothing In the regulations about that because that would depend in your contrat and other elements.
If it’s a day you are normally contracted to work but cannot due to the average then why should the driver liose out on money because the company failed to adjust his hours accordingly.
If you a re due to work Monday to Friday he t week and your buss says you you can’t work because we’ve messed up so take the week off but we aren’t paying you then you would be okay with that? You would be expecting to earn your normal weeks wage and instead you end up with nothing because of their incompetence.
The other thing is I can’t see anywhere where it says that a company has to pay for the days a driver have to take off either, to bring down their working time down. Just a thought!!!
thanks for the comments, one is very correct on the eg 2 days to reduce the hours should be say the 5 on holls then say monday tuesday being stood down
above comment on pay , yes you HAVE to be paid as you are not allowed to work any ware else due to wtd regs
one issue no one picked up on is holiday pay:
tribunal regs is 3 months plus 1 day since last time you believe you were at a loss, average pay is only on 20 statutory days but lets say, read this bit twice: you had the first week off as per my example but were marked on your wtd record as lieu days that means the next 20 are the statutory days, cant say how I know this but assure you its correct
eg
april off 5 days
june off 5 days
sept off 5 days
nov off 3 days
dec off 3 days
march off 4 days on wtd record in march 3 x lieu/nonstat plus 1 stat
first 20 are april to july = end of average pay however what if the first week is say 3 stat plus 2 lieu, follow that pattern through the year
what that means is tribunal is 3 months but the stat days are recorded willy nilly so can claim back all the way to 1998
felix:
The other thing is I can’t see anywhere where it says that a company has to pay for the days a driver have to take off either, to bring down their working time down.
If they have a contract stating 40 hours a week then they are legally entitled to that
.