WTD 30 min break rule

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Can anyone shed some light on this argument please. It states that a driver can’t work over 6 hours unless he has a 30 min break before 6 hours and then a further 15 min break before they go over 9 hours. I have always been lead to believe that if I take a 30 min break before 6 hours and a 15 min break before 9 hours I am legal which is what I have been doing for years. My question is : I usually take my full 45 min break at 6 hours which wipes the slate clean and I can start again but am I then restricted to a further 6 hours work before another 30 min break is needed or does my first full 45 min break cover me for the rest of my shift for the WTD ?

Also some people seem to think that a 15 min break before 6 hours is legal but I can’t find anywhere that says this is legal as everything I read states clearly that a 30 min break must be taken at 6 hours work.

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3

twinstacks:
Can anyone shed some light on this argument please. It states that a driver can’t work over 6 hours unless he has a 30 min break before 6 hours and then a further 15 min break before they go over 9 hours.

First of all where does it state that? It doesn’t say that in the WTD regulations. The WTD has the following about breaks.

7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.

(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…

Note all it says at 7 (1) is that a break must be taken before exceeding 6 hours work, it does not say how long it must be.

7 (2) and 7(3) define how much break is required for between 6 and 9 hours work and for more than 9 hours work. That is all those two parst are defining, they are not defining how much break must be taken at 6 hours.

7(4) then defines how that break may be taken (it doesn’t have to be in one lump) and what a break is as far as the WTD goes and it clearly states that a break can be 15 minutes.

Therefore as we know from 7(4) that a break can be 15 minutes it means that for 7(1) the break at 6 hours can be 15 minutes. Simple.

If the break at 6 hours had to be 30 minutes it would have to state that in 7(1) i.e 7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a 30 minute break. but as it doesn’t then it is only the minimum break allowed under the WTD which is required.

Nobody ever says you must have 45 minute break at 6 hours by taking what 7(3) says and applying it to 7(1) but they are quite happy to incorrectly do so with 7(2).

Also note that if you do take 15 minutes at 6 hours you do not need to take the other 15 minutes, or 30 minutes if you are working over 9 hours, between 6 and 9 hours. You must take that no later than the next 6 hours of work point of before the end of your shift, whichever comes first. In the case of more than 9 hours work and having taken 15 minutes as the first part of your break you can take the remaining 30 minutes in 2x15 minutes if you wish, providing you don’t go another 6 hours without a break and you complete the break before the end of your shift.

You must have at least 1 minute of work after having a WTD break before the end of your shift as it states in both 7(2) and 7(3) the break(s) must interrupt your working time and taking it right at the end of the shift would be interrupting it.

twinstacks:
I have always been lead to believe that if I take a 30 min break before 6 hours and a 15 min break before 9 hours I am legal which is what I have been doing for years. My question is : I usually take my full 45 min break at 6 hours which wipes the slate clean and I can start again but am I then restricted to a further 6 hours work before another 30 min break is needed or does my first full 45 min break cover me for the rest of my shift for the WTD ?

If after taking a break before 6 hours work you again reach 6 hours work you will need another 15 minute break. Note the wording of 7(1). It states no mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break and that is any period of 6 hours and not just the first 6 hours of work from the start of the shift. Again, if it was only the first 6 hours of work it would have to say so in the regulations.

twinstacks:
Also some people seem to think that a 15 min break before 6 hours is legal but I can’t find anywhere that says this is legal as everything I read states clearly that a 30 min break must be taken at 6 hours work.

Those are the people who can read and understand the regulations and not lazy trainers who cannot. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: Whatever you are reading that states it must be 30 minutes it sure isn’t the actual regulations.

For further conformation, because after all why should you believe me any more than trumpet trainers and numpty drivers, :wink: check this thread and the post from nick2008 which contains an email from the Dft confirming it is only 15 minutes required before exceeding 6 hours. Remember the DfT are the people who run VOSA and VOSA are the organisation tasked with enforcing the WTD.

4

As I said you can’t work over 6 hours without a break as you state below.

7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.

Also as I said you need 30 min break at 6 hours as you stated below

(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

And as you state its periods of 15 mins not a period of 15 mins and I think taking 15 mins at 6 hours would be incorrect

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…

I also take my break at 6 hours as I work 12 hour shifts and it stops any confusion regarding breaks if I take my full 45 min break at 6 hours unless the 4.5 hour driving rule comes first.

Thanks

5

twinstacks:
As I said you can’t work over 6 hours without a break as you state below.

7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.

Also as I said you need 30 min break at 6 hours as you stated below

(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

I didn’t state below that 30 minutes is required at 6 hours. That is the direct quote from the regulations and you need to read it again very carefully because nowhere in that does it state 30 minutes at 6 hours. 7(2) is simply laying down how much break in total is required for a shift of between 6 and 9 hours work and is not defining how much of that break is required before exceeding 6 hours work.

Why are you, like so many others reading 7(2) and saying, incorrectly, it must be 30 minutes but not reading 7(3) and saying it must be 45 minutes, I don’t get it?

Is it because 7(2) mentions 6 hours and 7(3) doesn’t and because 7(1) also mentions 6 hours you are applying 7(2) to 7(1)when it isn’t anything to do with 7(1)?

twinstacks:
And as you state its periods of 15 mins not a period of 15 mins

Again, not me stating it but the actual regulations. Obviously it uses the plural periods because it is saying that the required total break can be taken in more than one block and if it used the singular period that wouldn’t make sense.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each makes sense.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate period of not less than 15 minutes each makes no sense.

twinstacks:
and I think taking 15 mins at 6 hours would be incorrect

Well I have tried explaining where you are going wrong, provided the actual section from the regulations, which you are obviously not understanding when you are reading it, and provided a link to an email from the Department for Transport confirming it is indeed only 15 minutes required before exceeding 6 hours so not much more I can do and you’ll just have to carry on being wrong. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

twinstacks:
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…

This is the important bit and it means that your required WTD break can be made up of periods of at least 15 minutes. It would be impossible to make up a 45 minute break with a period of 15 minutes wouldn’t it? You would need 3 and therefore periods rather than period.

twinstacks:
I also take my break at 6 hours as I work 12 hour shifts and it stops any confusion regarding breaks if I take my full 45 min break at 6 hours unless the 4.5 hour driving rule comes first.

That makes perfect sense and it works best for you that way but it doesn’t mean it is the legal requirement to do it like that.

6

435 minutes? :stuck_out_tongue:

It is all in the detail :wink:

7

Your correct its how its worded and how each individual reads it but this letter, which I will print off and keep, is very helpful. Thankyou all

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:10:48 +0000
From: Steve.Oliver@dft.gsi.gov.uk
To: @hotmail.co.uk
Subject: re: Working Time Directive

Dear Mr

Thank you for your email of 27 September to the Department for Transport regarding the guidance for Working Time.

Your understanding of the break requirements is not entirely correct. It is not the case that you have to take 30 minutes break immediately after 6 hours work. You must take a 15 minute break (as a break is required after 6 hours work and all breaks must be at least 15 minutes in length).

If you are going to be working between 6 and 9 hours then you must take a total of 30 minutes break. The second 15 minute break could be taken later on, and does not have to be taken straight away.

I hope that clarifies things for you, but let me know if you have any more questions.

Yours Sincerely

Steve Oliver

Policy Advisor
Freight and Logistics Division

Department for Transport
Zone 2/14 Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London SW1P 4DR

Tel: 020 7944 2756
Fax: 020 7944 2928

8

As I understand it and have worked by with no comebacks as yet.

Upto 6 hours work - Mininum 15 mins break
upto 9 hours - mininum 45 mins (if already taken a 15 then an additional 30 to make up the 45)
This also ties in with my tacho laws so covering the 2 sets of rules.
Of course you can take a 45 before your 6 hours is up.

9

Dear Mr

Thank you for your email of 27 September to the Department for Transport regarding the guidance for Working Time.

Your understanding of the break requirements is not entirely correct. It is not the case that you have to take 30 minutes break immediately after 6 hours work. You must take a 15 minute break (as a break is required after 6 hours work and all breaks must be at least 15 minutes in length).

If you are going to be working between 6 and 9 hours then you must take a total of 30 minutes break. The second 15 minute break could be taken later on, and does not have to be taken straight away.

I hope that clarifies things for you, but let me know if you have any more questions.

Yours Sincerely

Steve Oliver

Policy Advisor
Freight and Logistics Division

Department for Transport
Zone 2/14 Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London SW1P 4DR

Tel: 020 7944 2756
Fax: 020 7944 2928

My question now is that if I took a 15 min break at 6 hours and then finished my shift at 8 hours work I would have then broken the law as I only had 15 min break between 6 and 9 hours. I know drivers that are taking a 15 min break at 6 hours and then working 3 hours and going home which it now seems is illegal as only 15 min break has been taken between 6 and 9 hours work.

Again thanks

10

twinstacks:
My question now is that if I took a 15 min break at 6 hours and then finished my shift at 8 hours work I would have then broken the law as I only had 15 min break between 6 and 9 hours. I know drivers that are taking a 15 min break at 6 hours and then working 3 hours and going home which it now seems is illegal as only 15 min break has been taken between 6 and 9 hours work.

Again thanks

Yes it’s breaking the rules, they need another 15minutes before the end of their day. However, you cannot have a break at the end of your shift, so if come 8hours work you’ve only had 15mins and are suddenly told that you’re finished and should go home you cannot. You have to by law then go on break for 15mins and do some more “work” before going home. There is nothing that I know of saying how long this last bit of “work” has to last so when it’s happened to me I just take 15mins break and then log another 15mins of other work before going home, in reality I don’t actually do any more work.

11

Is it just me or is the powers that be out of touch with the working man !!!. The lazt barstewards who don’t wanna work get everything and the guys that wanna work are controlled to the hilt and restricted from making an honest coin. TOSSERS !!

12

OK!! So where does POA fit in the above scenarios!!!

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poa doesn’t count towards on duty so doesnt affect your 6 hours. For example if you were to do 3 hours poa at the start of your shift then you don’t need a break until you had then done 6 hours work which in effect ment you were at work 9 hours but only had 6 hours on duty. Be careful with digi tachs as they see poa as a break so if you were to have 45 mins poa it would clear any driving you have shown and then allow you to drive a further 4.5 hours which would be illegal.

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Kiowan:

twinstacks:
My question now is that if I took a 15 min break at 6 hours and then finished my shift at 8 hours work I would have then broken the law as I only had 15 min break between 6 and 9 hours. I know drivers that are taking a 15 min break at 6 hours and then working 3 hours and going home which it now seems is illegal as only 15 min break has been taken between 6 and 9 hours work.

Again thanks

Yes it’s breaking the rules, they need another 15minutes before the end of their day. However, you cannot have a break at the end of your shift, so if come 8hours work you’ve only had 15mins and are suddenly told that you’re finished and should go home you cannot. You have to by law then go on break for 15mins and do some more “work” before going home. There is nothing that I know of saying how long this last bit of “work” has to last so when it’s happened to me I just take 15mins break and then log another 15mins of other work before going home, in reality I don’t actually do any more work.

Already covered in the second post of this thread by Coffeholic…

You must have at least 1 minute of work after having a WTD break before the end of your shift as it states in both 7(2) and 7(3) the break(s) must interrupt your working time and taking it right at the end of the shift would be interrupting it.

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B1 GGK:
As I understand it and have worked by with no comebacks as yet.

Upto 6 hours work - Mininum 15 mins break
upto 9 hours - mininum 45 mins (if already taken a 15 then an additional 30 to make up the 45)

Up to six hours work no break is required for the WTD

Between 6 and 9 hours minimum of 30 minutes break, it is for more than 9 hours work that a minimum of 45 minutes is required

B1 GGK:
This also ties in with my tacho laws so covering the 2 sets of rules.

This is the point most people are missing when they insist that it is 30 minutes break at 6 hours. It is 15 minutes so it ties in with teh tacho regs requirement for taking your break in two parts where the first part must be at least 15 minutes and the second 30.

16

twinstacks:
Your correct its how its worded and how each individual reads it…

It is indeed how it’s worded but there is only one way to read it, it is pretty clear.

twinstacks:
My question now is that if I took a 15 min break at 6 hours and then finished my shift at 8 hours work I would have then broken the law as I only had 15 min break between 6 and 9 hours.

Indeed you would have because the regulations clearly state that for a shift of between 6 and 9 hours work a total of 30 minutes is required so if you would need to take another 15 minutes before the end of your shift. If your shift will be a longer one there is no requirement to take any further break between 6 and 9 hours after taking 15 minutes at, or before, 6 hours, you can take the rest later in the shift. Either at the next 6 hour point, when you would need at least 15 minutes, or before the end of the shift, which ever comes first.

twinstacks:
Is it just me or is the powers that be out of touch with the working man !!!. The lazt barstewards who don’t wanna work get everything and the guys that wanna work are controlled to the hilt and restricted from making an honest coin. TOSSERS !!

Probably just. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: For most people the WTD, thanks to POA and breaks not counting as work, has made no difference to their ability to work and earn. I know it’s made no difference to me.

17

Coffeeholic:

B1 GGK:
As I understand it and have worked by with no comebacks as yet.

Upto 6 hours work - Mininum 15 mins break
upto 9 hours - mininum 45 mins (if already taken a 15 then an additional 30 to make up the 45)

Up to six hours work no break is required for the WTD

Between 6 and 9 hours minimum of 30 minutes break, it is for more than 9 hours work that a minimum of 45 minutes is required

Looking back I monged up how I wrote that out, but yeh was meaning how you wrote it.

18

Thanks coffeeholic.

Just to sum up If I work between 6 - 9 hours I need a 30 min break. when I reach 6 hours I need to take a min of 15 min break and then a further 15 min break before I reach 9 hours or before the end of my shift, if its less than 9 hours, whatever comes first. If I work over 9 hours I need to show a further 15 min break before the end of my shift.

Question:

If I work 6 hours and take 45 min break do I then need to show another break if I worked over 6 hours after my 45 min break?

Sorry for going on just like to be totaly clear.

Many thanks all

19

twinstacks:
Thanks coffeeholic.

Just to sum up If I work between 6 - 9 hours I need a 30 min break.

Correct.

twinstacks:
when I reach 6 hours I need to take a min of 15 min break

Correct

twinstacks:
and then a further 15 min break before I reach 9 hours

No, there is no requirement for a break before 9 hours. When you read section 7 of the WTD regulations you don’t apply both section 7(2) and 7(3) to your shift, it is 7(2) OR 7(3). You only use the one which matches your shift so if you have between 6 and 9 hours work then you apply 7(2) and ignore 7(3). If you have more than 9 hours work you ignore section 7(2) and apply 7(3). By ignoring 7(2) there is no mention of breaks for 9 hours so no break is required. It is also further evidence that 15 minutes is required at 6 hours and not 30. At 6 hours you might not know how much work will be in your shift so won’t at that stage know whether 7(2) or 7(3) is going to apply to the shift.

twinstacks:
or before the end of my shift, if its less than 9 hours, whatever comes first.

Yes, the remaining break must be taken before the end of the shift and not right at the end of the shift.

twinstacks:
If I work over 9 hours I need to show a further 15 min break before the end of my shift.

You will need 30 minutes to go with the 15 you took at 6 hours if your shift has more than 9 hours of work in it. That can be in one lump or two parts of at least 15 minutes.

twinstacks:
Question:

If I work 6 hours and take 45 min break do I then need to show another break if I worked over 6 hours after my 45 min break?

Yes, you would need another 15 minutes. It is every period of 6 hours work, not just the first 6 hours work in the shift.

20

Ok now am a bit confused. I have to have a 30 min break if I work between 6 - 9 hours and take 15 min break at 6 hours you then said that I dont need another break if I finish before 9 hours but then that would mean I only had 15 min break between 6 - 9 hours which would be against the rule.

Sorry if am wafflin on am just thick lol