as it say when you opt out of the 10 hour work at night does that include the fixed 24 hour period
so in the RTD there this bit would i be right in that you can work more than 10 hour if a workforce agreement in place but not the 24 hour period
The 24 hour period is very important, and should not be confused with 10 hours night work
per day. This prevents a worker starting slightly earlier on the following day, unless they did
less than 10 hours work on the previous day.
example
driver drivers for 9 hours and works for 2 hours with opt out in force starting at 6 pm finishing at 5.00am would not be able to start shift till 6 pm even if he took a 9 hour rest
Sorry Del but I’m a little confused by the question, as far as I can see if you legally opt out of the night time workers working hours limitation then surely the 24 hour period as described by you becomes redundant as far as the night time working rule is concerned, or am I missing something
delboytwo:
example
driver drivers for 9 hours and works for 2 hours with opt out in force starting at 6 pm finishing at 5.00am would not be able to start shift till 6 pm even if he took a 9 hour rest
As there’s no limitation on working hours apart from having the required daily rest then I see no reason why you shouldn’t start as soon as you’ve had the daily rest period.
Now you’ve probably started a debate about what’s meant by “each 24 period”
If an opt out is in force then all the night time working rules (including the one you refer to) go out the window and now become the same as the daytime ones
delboytwo:
…would i be right in that you can work more than 10 hour if a workforce agreement in place but not the 24 hour period
That would actually be impossible. If someone starts work at 02:00 and when they reach 10 hours work you say that’s it, you can work more but not in this 24-hour period then the earliest they could work again would be 02:00 the next day, which is a new 24 hour period.
No workforce agreement = 10 hours maximum work in 24 hour period
Workforce agreement = 14.25 hours maximum work in 24 hour period.
no what i am trying to get is as you have an opt out does that include the starting early in that 24 hour
as it says in my quote there are different the opt out allows you to work more that 10 hours
The 24 hour period is very important, and should not be confused with 10 hours night work
per day. This prevents a worker starting slightly earlier on the following day, unless they did
less than 10 hours work on the previous day.
so this is what i am trying to get
example 1
mon 6pm start, driving 9 hours other work 1 hour can not start work till 6 pm next day as worked 10 hours no opt out in place
example 2
mon 6 pm start ,driving 8 hours other work 1 hour can start work at at 5 pm next day as worked only 9 hours no opt out in place
example 3
mon 6pm start, driving 9 hour other work 3 hours can not start work till 6 pm as work for 12 hours opt out in place as there worked 12 hours in the 24 hour period there would not be allowed to start work till 6 pm
here is a work force agreement
This Workforce Agreement is between [name of the company] “The Company” and [the
workers as specified below] “The Employees” in accordance with the provisions of the Road
Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 [SI 2005/639 - “the Regulations”], which came
into force on 4 April 2005 and will apply to those mobile workers subject to the provisions of
the Regulations.
The Agreement will apply to all [members of the Company/please specify group] within the
Company [except those who are bound by existing collective agreements.]
It is agreed that the Company and the Employees will adopt the flexibility permitted by the
Regulations as set out below. This Agreement will remain in force for a period of [not more
than 5 years after the commencement date] when it will cease to have effect.
Reference Period: the reference period for the calculation of average weekly hours shall be as
follows:
extended to 26 weeks
and/or will have the following start and finish dates e.g. 1 January to 30 June and 1 July to 31
December; or 1 April to 30 September and 1 October to 31 March annually;
or will be a rolling reference period.
Night Work: a nightworker’s normal hours of work may exceed the limit of 10 hours in each
24 hour period.
Dated and signed by Company:
… .
Dated and signed by Elected Representatives of the Employees or by the majority of the
Workforce:
so if you did 1 min over you 10 hour in that night say and you started work at 6pm you still would not be allowed to return to work till 6pm even with a opt out of the working hours as there is no opt out of the 24 hour fixed period unless you work less than 10 hours in the that 24 hour period
Drivers say that they are ‘opting out of the 10 hour night rule’ but what they mean is that they are opting out from the night regulations as a whole - it’s one of things that is said differently from the actual meaning
Q: Does the limit apply to you if you only occasionally work at night?
A: Yes, unless:
you are an occasional mobile worker (see Section 1.3 - “occasional mobile worker”); or
there is a relevant agreement that allows you to work longer than 10 hours in the 24 hour period.
ROG:
Drivers say that they are ‘opting out of the 10 hour night rule’ but what they mean is that they are opting out from the night regulations as a whole - it’s one of things that is said differently from the actual meaning
IMHO i think you can only opt out of the 10 hour working rule not the 24 hour period on night work
ROG:
They have opted out of ALL THIS LOT
does that help ?
yes ROG but there this bit there
The 24 hour period is very important, and should not be confused with 10 hours night work per shift. The 10 hours should be calculated on a rolling basis therefore when carrying out night work on consecutive shifts a mobile worker’s start time could be dictated by how much working time they completed in the previous shift.
you can only opt out of the 10 hour work not the 24 hour period
delboytwo:
you can only opt out of the 10 hour work not the 24 hour period
Sure ■■?
Q: Does the limit apply to you if you only occasionally work at night?
A: Yes, unless:
you are an occasional mobile worker (see Section 1.3 - “occasional mobile worker”); or
there is a relevant agreement that allows you to work longer than 10 hours in the 24 hour period.
I’ve now clicked as to where you are getting confused with this
There are 2 lots of rules for those who have not opted out.
no more than 10 hours in a shift
no more than 10 hours in a 24 hour period
The purpose of those is to stop a driver doing more than 10 hours in any one shift or working more than 10 hours in ANY 24 hour period
They are seperate rules but work together.
When a driver opts out, both are opted out of - after all, how could a driver opt out of 1. but still conform with 2. - it would be impossible as any shift must fit within a 24 hour period due to the rest requirements
delboytwo:
what i am trying to get is as you have an opt out does that include the starting early in that 24 hour
The regulations only limit your working time during the 24 hour period, there is no 24 hour regulation that says you can’t re-start work until 24 hours from the start of the previous shift, it only says that you can’t re-start work if it means going over the 10 hours working time during the 24 hours period.
If you start work at 20:00 Monday and finish at 06:00 Tuesday having had a 1 hour break you’ve only completed 9 hours working time so would be able to re-start work at 19:00 Tuesday regardless of whether or not there’s an agreement in place.
Del, if you opt out of the WTD night limit you opt out of all of it and normal ‘daytime rules’ apply.
delboytwo:
The 24 hour period is very important, and should not be confused with 10 hours night work per shift. The 10 hours should be calculated on a rolling basis therefore when carrying out night work on consecutive shifts a mobile worker’s start time could be dictated by how much working time they completed in the previous shift.
you can only opt out of the 10 hour work not the 24 hour period
The bit in red is pointing out that it isn’t 10 hours per shift and drawing attention to the fact it is 10 hours in a 24 hour period, with no opt out.
delboytwo:
example 3
mon 6pm start, driving 9 hour other work 3 hours can not start work till 6 pm as work for 12 hours opt out in place as there worked 12 hours in the 24 hour period there would not be allowed to start work till 6 pm
But this driver, with an opt out in place, has already worked more than 10 hours in the 24-hour period so why can’t he start work before 18:00, daily rest permitting? Your example/argument is saying you can work more than 10 hours with an opt out but only in one shift in a 24-hour period and that isn’t stated anywhere in the WTD regs.
You are doing a ROG and coming up with stuff that isn’t there.
ROG:
I’ve now clicked as to where you are getting confused with this
There are 2 lots of rules for those who have not opted out.
no more than 10 hours in a shift
no more than 10 hours in a 24 hour period
The purpose of those is to stop a driver doing more than 10 hours in any one shift or working more than 10 hours in ANY 24 hour period
They are seperate rules but work together.
When a driver opts out, both are opted out of - after all, how could a driver opt out of 1. but still conform with 2. - it would be impossible as any shift must fit within a 24 hour period due to the rest requirements
That isn’t 2 rules, that is the same rule. Now you’re doing a ROG and adding extra rules. OH!!! Hang on, you are ROG.
One rule. No more than 10 hours work in 24 hours whether that is in one, two or three shifts.
ROG:
I’ve now clicked as to where you are getting confused with this
There are 2 lots of rules for those who have not opted out.
no more than 10 hours in a shift
no more than 10 hours in a 24 hour period
Perhaps you could point us in the direction of the regulation that states that you can only work 10 hours in a shift without an agreement in place.
As far as I’m aware there is only one night time workers hours limitation and that is the 10 hours working time during the 24 hour period, in practice of course you could only legally work for a maximum of 10 hours during the shift without an agreement but there certainly isn’t a separate rule that stipulates this.
Coffeeholic:
That isn’t 2 rules, that is the same rule
I realised that about 2 mins after I posted it !!!
Basic logic really as it would be impossible to do a shift over 10 hours with that shift being more than 10 in a 24 hour period - me silly
Coffeeholic:
That isn’t 2 rules, that is the same rule
I realised that about 2 mins after I posted it !!!
Basic logic really as it would be impossible to do a shift over 10 hours with that shift being more than 10 in a 24 hour period
Indeed, as I said in my first post on this thread.
i think i am confusing you all what i said was if you opt out of the 10 hour working rule do that include this as well (as usual )
When a mobile worker performs night work on a number of consecutive days, the start time
reference point for each consecutive 24 hour period is the time at which the mobile worker
started work on the first day. This start time reference point would cease to be used when a
mobile worker does not perform any night work during two consecutive 24 hour periods.
as there no time IE 10 hours or more in the quote even with a opt out would this be included in the opt out
delboytwo:
i think i am confusing you all what i said was if you opt out of the 10 hour working rule do that include this as well (as usual )
When a mobile worker performs night work on a number of consecutive days, the start time
reference point for each consecutive 24 hour period is the time at which the mobile worker
started work on the first day. This start time reference point would cease to be used when a
mobile worker does not perform any night work during two consecutive 24 hour periods.
as there no time IE 10 hours or more in the quote even with a opt out would this be included in the opt out
As I said above, when you opt out of the 10-hour night time working limit you opt out of all of its requirements and normal EU Driver’s Hours limits apply.
That quote doesn’t stand alone, it has to be read in conjunction with the 10 hours work in a 24-hour period limit rule.
ROG:
If what you quoted was conformed to then the driver would not be opted out as they would be restricted to 10 hours in any 24 period
No he wouldn’t, he could still be opted out. That quote, taken as a standalone quote, would only limit his start time to the same time, or later, than his previous shift but he could still work more than 10 hours in a 24-hour period. That is what Del is getting at, he is asking are your start times still limited when doing night work with an opt out in place. They are not, except by the daily rest requirements of the tacho regs.
