Hi all,
Looking for a bit of clarity on working time and rest periods. I currently work 4 days on, 4 off with 12 hour shifts in a non driving job. I’ve got my Cat C test next week and I intend to do a bit of driving part time on my days off when I (hopefully) pass.
What would the rules for rest be if i’m already working 48 hours, averaging 40 a week over the calendar year? Could I drive two days and still be within regulation?
Many thanks
Tom
Thomaswilliam2210:
Hi all,
Looking for a bit of clarity on working time and rest periods. I currently work 4 days on, 4 off with 12 hour shifts in a non driving job. I’ve got my Cat C test next week and I intend to do a bit of driving part time on my days off when I (hopefully) pass.
What would the rules for rest be if i’m already working 48 hours, averaging 40 a week over the calendar year? Could I drive two days and still be within regulation?
Many thanks
Tom
The working time for drivers is different to the working time for non driving jobs
The two do not get added together so now we have no issues with any WTD rules 
What you need to concentrate on is the weekly rest rules
The non driving hours cannot count as rest time
You need at least 45 hours off in one go every other week + at least 24 hours off in one go in the weeks you do not have 45 off
For a weekly rest to be counted for a week (sunday midnight to sunday midnight) it must be at least 1 minute into that week
A weekly rest that includes sunday midnight cannot be used for both weeks UNLESS it is long enough to be split into two such as 45+45 or 45+24 or 24+45
One of the best explanations I have seen. Try asking this question at your next DCPC course and watch the instructors face! Unless it’s ROG of course!!
Probably quite rightly companies are now often getting you to declare when your last weekly rest started and ended. You should also be keeping a record of all work done either on the card or on a separate log to carry with you to guarantee that you are squeaky clean and not risking problems if stopped. In terms of the EU rules, any work done needs to be recorded no matter if it is a separate employment.
In terms of the road transport working time regulations, they seem to be worded that the 48 hour rule applies to “an employment” and obviously a driving or road transport employment at that. I stand to be corrected on that one, however, that is what it seems to state.
In terms of managing to do 2 extra days, it is a difficult one to answer. I can say that on 4 on 4 off you will have a run of fixed weeks (Mon to Sun) where you only actually work 3 days. Maybe target these weeks for a couple of days and try and fit in the odd day here and there elsewhere, ensuring that you get the appropriate weekly rest as well.
Maigret:
One of the best explanations I have seen. Try asking this question at your next DCPC course and watch the instructors face! Unless it’s ROG of course!!
I am not sure ROG is correct!
This is an exert from the RMT union web page.
7. WHAT IF I ONLY OCCASIONALLY WORK UNDER THE EUROPEAN DRIVERS’ HOURS RULES?
The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations apply mainly to commercial drivers and crew who work under the scope of the European Drivers’ Hours Rules. However stage-carriage bus and light-van drivers and non-mobile workers such as mechanics, warehouse staff will occasionally undertake work which falls under the scope of the European Rules.
Under these circumstances you will not be subject to the new Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations if you;
Work fewer than 11 days within the scope of the European Drivers’ Hours regulation in a reference period which is shorter than 26 weeks or;
Work fewer than 16 days within the scope of the European Drivers’ Hours regulation in a reference period which is 26 weeks or longer.
If you do not exceed these limits then the work that you do is subject to the provisions of the Working Time Regulations 1998 (as amended).
However if you do exceed these limits all the work that you do falls under the provisions of the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005. This includes working as a stage carriage bus driver, working in a warehouse/distribution centre or driving a vehicle which is less than 3.5tonnes in weight.
8. WHAT IF I WORK FOR MORE THAN ONE EMPLOYER?
If you work for more than one employer, then the weekly working time is the combined total of the hours worked, excluding breaks, rest periods and periods of availability. You will be required to inform your employer(s), in writing, of any hours worked for another employer.
Voluntary work and activities undertaken as a retained fire-fighter, special constable or as a member of the reserve armed forces does not count towards the weekly average or maximum.
I have not read through the regulations in detail so would be happy to be shown otherwise, but the above seems to suggest that all of your work would count if you do more than 16 days of EU driving in a 26 week period!
[rmt.org.uk/about/policies/r … 20required](https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/policies/research/employment-law/rmt-guide-to-the-road-transport-working-time-regulations-2005/?preview=true#:~:text=The%202005%20Road%20Transport%20(Working,hours%20without%20taking%20a%20break.&text=If%20you%20work%20more%20than,minutes%20in%20total%20are%20required).
Your post content does not address the two different types of WTD but only addresses the drivers WTD
I decided to investigate further as I honestly wasn’t sure about work for another employer and I did say that I stood to be corrected.
Indeed Regulation 11 does state that the employer of the mobile worker has a responsibility to request details of any time worked for another employer.
It does appear that the “employment” is simply the employment that involves mobile work, but that is not to say that other hours worked don’t count or that other hours in non-mobile work don’t count.
If the employer doesn’t request the information it would be committing an offence and if the mobile worker knowingly works more than 48 hours on average over the reference period this would most likely be deemed an offence too (if it were ever discovered).
Noremac:
but that is not to say that other hours worked don’t count or that other hours in non-mobile work don’t count.
Member tachograph and myself looked into this and it is 100% that the two different WTDs do not get added together
The non driver WTD can be opted out of entirely
ROG:
Noremac:
but that is not to say that other hours worked don’t count or that other hours in non-mobile work don’t count.Member tachograph and myself looked into this and it is 100% that the two different WTDs do not get added together
The non driver WTD can be opted out of entirely
Hi Rog,
Can you post the info where you got this from? I don’t want to tell my drivers something and it turns out to be incorrect.
Many thanks
ROG:
Noremac:
but that is not to say that other hours worked don’t count or that other hours in non-mobile work don’t count.Member tachograph and myself looked into this and it is 100% that the two different WTDs do not get added together
The non driver WTD can be opted out of entirely
That appears to be at variance with the advice given by firms who specialise in this sort of thing. Here’s one example:
app.croneri.co.uk/questions-and … egulations
Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk
Cannot see the info you mention in that link 
I think it was member tachograph who got the definitive info so you might have to search his posts
ROG, it might simply be the case that somewhere in relevant employment contracts, there is a clause stating that drivers / workers must tell their employer about any other work they carry out. This perhaps covers the issue in terms of employer liability, leaving the employee to be the fall guy if an investigation is carried out (for example after a bad RTA or something). I have seen agency timesheets where there is space for hours completed with another employer to be entered. This again shifts the responsibility onto the driver, because the agency can state that the driver didn’t declare certain work if it is ever questioned.
Noremac:
ROG, it might simply be the case that somewhere in relevant employment contracts, there is a clause stating that drivers / workers must tell their employer about any other work they carry out. This perhaps covers the issue in terms of employer liability, leaving the employee to be the fall guy if an investigation is carried out (for example after a bad RTA or something). I have seen agency timesheets where there is space for hours completed with another employer to be entered. This again shifts the responsibility onto the driver, because the agency can state that the driver didn’t declare certain work if it is ever questioned.
The tacho rest rules are always there to be adhered to and work in a non driving job cannot be counted as rest
That is probably why no authority bothers with any WTD stuff
ROG:
Cannot see the info you mention in that link
Ah - the that’ll be because we are not “subscribers”
This is the text of the relevant Question and Answer:
Q
We employ a number of warehouse staff who possess LGV licences. We sometimes ask them to drive goods vehicles, operating under the EU Drivers’ Hours Regulations, to cover for staff sickness and holidays. It has come to our attention that we need to monitor the number of times these employees work as drivers, during a “reference period”, so as not to contravene the requirements of the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 (RTWTR). Please explain the rules in connection with the use of employees who only drive goods vehicles on occasions.A
Occasional drivers are workers who only occasionally work within the scope of the EU drivers’ hours rules, in that they work:10 days or less within scope of the EU Drivers’ Hours Regulations in a reference period that is shorter than 26 weeks (eg a reference period of 17 or 18 weeks)
15 days or less within scope of the EU Drivers’ Hours Regulations in a reference period that is 26 weeks or longer.
Provided they do not exceed the limits shown above, these workers are subject to the Working Time Regulations 1998, instead of the RTWTR. This means that they can sign an “opt out” from the 48-hour average weekly work limit.
However, if a worker exceeds the limits shown above, then they will be considered a “mobile worker” for the purposes of the RTWTR, and will be subject to the 48-hour weekly average. Furthermore, any calculation of working time will be retrospective (ie will include all hours worked from the start of the reference period).
Last reviewed 2 January 2018
Most doing a non driving job would only manage 1 day every other week so 13 in a 26 period
If anyone thinks the two WTDs get added together then there will be rule/law which states that any work under WTD will count as RTD if a person comes within the scope of RTD
ROG, I don’t think it is a case of the work being done under a certain piece of legislation. Multiple pieces of legislation could apply at the same time. The driver could potentially have opted out of the 48 hour average in his non-driving job, but in his other job as a driver he is considered to be working under RT(WT)R and all work counts.
Having said this, proper disclosure of all work is probably rarely done. At the end of the day it is up to the driver and the employer. As I have alluded to there is a lot of backside covering in terms of clauses and timesheets so that if something happens and an investigation happens, the buck can be passed.
No one has yet sited a case where WTD of any sort was involved