Hi guys I was just wondering can anybody shed some light on this?
I quit hgv driving last year to become a driving instructor (don’t everyone boo me!)
anyway it hasn’t worked out and my ex boss has asked me to come back, now that’s fine I think I’ll go back, but what I want to ask is where do I stand if I want to do the driving instruction as a part time thing within the driving laws? Because I’m getting paid to instruct I’m not sure if it counts towards my tacho hours?
Thanks to anyone who can help
Regards
Gidion
it will count towards you hours but as other work. if you do any drivng using a tacho during the week you will need to record all other work (either on blank charts or the back of printout paper) and stay within your rests (ie 9 or 11 a night and 24/45 a week) as per normal.
i know its not the answer you wanted to hear but thats the rules im afraid,
could you not work both part time (or ask the boss what hours you will be driving) and work out if it is practicable to do both and stay within the law?
Yeah I did ask him could I possibly do something like mon-wed and keep my learning to 3 or 4 days but he said he needs a full time worker, and because it’s not going as I thought it would I’m gonna have to go back full time! not happy but the bills do need to get paid?
Thanks for the reply I did think that was the case
Gidion
If I am reading this correctly, you are going to be full time trucking and part time car instructing.
If that is the case then LEGALLY you must fill out a tacho card for the days you do car instructing with your name,date,start & finish time for that day on the card (1 card for each day)
How they would find out exectly what car driving instruction you did on each day and at what time if you did not do the above, I do not know
I don’t think the car instructing counts towards the RTD (mobile workers) WTD but a site regs GURU will confirm that - or not :!:
What VOSA will be looking for is that you have had the correct WEEKLY rests in regard to ALL the work that you have done.
If you are under EU regs from Mon to Fri (for example) then LEGALLY you can usually only work for one day every other weekend to ensure the above WEEKLY rest requirement.
Does this mean that ALL WORK and working is now counted (for want of a better word) ?
Would a bricklayer fall into “scope” ?
Lets say a bricklayer was working Mon to Fri and then drove under EU regs on Saturday -
A tacho card for each day M to F would need to be filled out a I described above.
Also the bricky could also only drive one day every other weekend due to getting in the required weekly rests.
The week in which he did not drive on the Saturday would not require cards filling out for the M to F.
A ‘week’ is defined as Sunday midnight to Sunday midnight
Recording other work
Drivers must record all other work and periods of availability — including work for other employers —
on all driving and non-driving days within a week where they have undertaken driving that comes
within the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours.
For example, a driver who works in a warehouse on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and wishes
to drive a vehicle within the scope of the EU rules on Thursday of the same week must complete
records for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
The record must be either:
written manually on a chart;
written manually on a printout from a digital tachograph;
made by using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph; or
for days where a driver has been subject to the domestic drivers’ hours rules and a record
is legally required (see page 25), recorded in a domestic log book.
For the non-driving days, the record may simply show the driver’s name, the date, and the start
and finish of the shift. These records must be carried on the vehicle by the driver to be produced to
enforcement officers for the relevant period (see individual sections on how to make manual entries).
dambuster:
ROG, would you tell/show me the wheres, whys and hows of that so I can put it into my head in my own language.
I can only quote the regs -
From the official regs =
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 Article 4 (c) ‘driver’ means any person who drives the vehicle even for a short period, or who is carried in a vehicle as part of his duties to be available for driving if necessary; Article 6 5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in Article 4(e) as well as any time spent driving a vehicle used for commercial operations not falling within the scope of this Regulation, and shall record any periods of availability, as defined in Article 15(3)(c) of Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85, since his last daily or weekly rest period. This record shall be entered either manually on a record sheet, a printout or by use of manual input facilities on recording equipment.
and from VOSA =
Recording other work Drivers must record all other work and periods of availability — including work for other employers — on all driving and non-driving days within a week where they have undertaken driving that comes within the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours. For example, a driver who works in a warehouse on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and wishes to drive a vehicle within the scope of the EU rules on Thursday of the same week must complete records for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. The record must be either: - written manually on a chart; - written manually on a printout from a digital tachograph; - made by using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph; or - for days where a driver has been subject to the domestic drivers’ hours rules and a record is legally required (see page 24, ‘Record keeping’), recorded in a domestic log book. For the non-driving days, the record may simply show the driver’s name, the date, and the start and finish of the shift. These records must be carried on the vehicle by the driver to be produced to enforcement officers for the relevant period (see individual sections on how to make manual entries).
I almost said “Thanks for that chaps. It seems like those cleverer than you and I have finally outlawed people from working all week doing something else, then driving on a clean slate”
I rather hoped they had . . . . . .
But …
The example given in “The Regs” mentions a (for example) warehouseman. It a small leap of faith to align “warehouse work” to that of the “Transport Sector” No ?
I chose “bricklayer” on a random whim. It could have just as easily have been “fish fryer in the local chippy” It obviously couldn’t have been “traffic planner” or “HGV vehicle mechanic employed by a transport company”
Do you see the difference ?
One thing I’m struggling to get my head round is “What is work” and/or more likely “What work counts as work” . . . . in regard to the relevant legislation because . . . . .
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006
Article 4
(c) ‘driver’ means any person who drives the vehicle even for
a short period, or who is carried in a vehicle as part of his
duties to be available for driving if necessary;
Article 6
5. A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in Article 4(e) as well as any time spent driving a
vehicle used for commercial operations not falling within the
scope of this Regulation
Granted - I’ve made the assumption, without further reading at this point, that the Article 3(a) and the Article 4(e) is a reference to Directive 2002/15/EC
But that particular Directive is for “Mobile Workers” - Us. Transport. Etc. I can’t tie that to the bricklayer. Or indeed the fish fryer.
It is of course quite academic as I can neither fry bricks, nor lay a fish
Hi mate if you need to know what is work this may help
What counts as working time?
2.1 Main Points
Working time is not attendance or shift time. It does not include travelling between home and
work (however, it should be noted, that in certain circumstances such periods may count as
“other work” under the separate European drivers’ hours rules), lunch breaks, other breaks,
periods of availability, evening classes or day-release courses.
Working time includes job-related training associated with normal work and training that is
part of the company’s commercial transport operation.
Work carried out for another employer (who undertakes road transport activities within scope
of the European drivers’ hours rules) counts towards the total working time performed by the
mobile worker.
Voluntary work and activities performed by mobile workers who are part-time retained fire
fighters, special constables and members of the reserve forces should not be counted towards
these limits.
Employers Check
Identify activities that count as working time and those which count as periods of availability
Ask workers to confirm any working time they have performed for another employer
2.2 What is working time?
The Regulations define working time as the time from the beginning of work, during which
the mobile worker is at the workstation (typically this means the driver’s cab - but see glossary
for fuller definition of this and other terms) at the disposal of the employer and exercising his
functions or activities - that is to say:
a) the time devoted to all road transport activities including:-
driving;
loading/unloading;
training that is part of normal work and is part of the commercial operation;
assisting passengers boarding/disembarking from vehicle;
cleaning, maintenance of vehicle;
work intended to ensure safety of vehicle and its cargo and passengers (e.g. monitoring
loading and unloading - including daily defect check and report);
administrative formalities or work linked to legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to
the specific transport operations under way.
b) time devoted to other activities:
time during which the mobile worker cannot freely dispose of his/her time and is required to
be at the workstation (typically this means the driver’s cab - but see glossary for fuller
definition of this and other terms) ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated
with being on duty (e.g. working in the warehouse, or in an office or doing other activities for
the employer);
Guidance on the Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
10
waiting periods where the foreseeable duration is not known in advance, by the mobile
worker, either before departure or just before the start of the period in question.
Working Time does not include:
Routine travel between home and their normal place of work.
Rest and breaks when no work is done.
Periods of availability (see below).
Evening classes or day-release courses.
Voluntary work or time spent as a Retained Fire Fighter, a Special Constable, or member of
the Reserve Forces).
ROG:
Best way of thinking about it is - WORK covers MOST jobs - there are exceptions…
Indeed.
But if push were ever to come to shove ?
It’s beginning to remind me of the difference between the words “any” and “all” with regard to the former fiasco of “A clean sheet after a 45 accumulated minutes of break from driving” (Which of course has been clarified and put to bed)
delboytwo:
Hi mate if you need to know what is work this may help
What counts as working time?
/snip
I won’t re-quote the whole thing del, but again within that piece there are repeated and specific comments and proviso to “commercial transport operation” and “road transport activities within scope”
Thank you people, so I can safely say that if I do start on the trucks again I should still remain inside the EU regs and record all my instruction on (I’d probably use charts as I have loads in the house)
So in a word a big bloomin pain in the derier!
Thanks again guys it has really helped.
Gidion
