And putting a bodykit and fancy paint-job on a Rover 25 and calling it an MG-whatever it was… 
Austin metro vs VW golf , roadtrain vs 112 - it’s a no brainer
I think we are in danger of slagging off the British goods vehicle industry too much for the wrong reasons, Ramone asked why we couldn’t build something to match the 110 or 88 for that matter and the answer is we could, only these vehicles were for export and mainly to hot climates. Companies did make sleeper cabs and bonneted types both with high output engines but they were intended for a different market to Britain. Remember the Swedes were building their latest ventures to not only break into a very difficult and competative British market but for home use too, as well as other countries. Scandinavia as we know doesn’t have the Winters we are experiencing at the moment once in a blue moon as we do but every Winter so they have always built their vehicles accordingly. In Britain the Gaffers didn’t require vehicles to the same standard, they wouldn’t pay more for sleeper cabs and certainly didn’t give a hoot if the driver had a heater or even two wipers that worked.
The manufacturers didn’t get the demand from Britain for what was then seen as luxury items or big engines that drank fuel, a day cab and a Gardner engine was quite sufficient in their eyes to Tramp and Trunk on British roads. It was only when firstly the continental runs showed that changes were needed, however for many years firms had been going abroad using the same standard of vehicles similar to those that never left Britains shores. It was only when the Middle East runs become popular, which at its height was similar to the Gold Rush of the 1800’s, there was money to be made and most wanted a piece of it. Then drivers could see what others were using, instead of the Atkinson with the Pigeon Cree screwed to the back of the cab, there were 110’s, 88’s and others that seemed built for the job and many companies were quick to buy these, the next thing every driver in Britain wanted a Scania or Volvo. For many that didn’t though they still managed with the Marathon, Transcon and other British makes that alas had come on the scene rather too late but more than matched the Scandinavians.
I know many drivers that never drove anything but a British made Lorry and couldn’t see what all the fuss was about with these foreign motors and considered most had gone soft driving vehicles with power steering, heaters and even a bed in the cab which unlike today the majority were not keen on at all as it would effect night out money and other perks when using digs. It wasn’t just the fact that the foreigners led to the downfall of the British Commercial industry, they just happened to be around at the right time, we had foreign motors in this country since the end of the war but they weren’t that impressive, it was a number of factors that rang the death knell, some which could be seen coming and some that couldn’t, there is one sure thing in life, nothing stays the same for ever, who knows what the future holds!
Franky.
Hi Frank… I remember going on an ERF factory visit in the 70s while doing a week at Chapmans of Bradford driving school. The pride of the factory was their glassfibre building skills, when we slagged the A & B cabs for poor cab life and comfort we were looked at with horror and were given a lecture on how easy it was to repair G/F and anyway it was what haulage firms were asking for and what drivers wanted didnt come into it. But while there we saw the future, in a steel built, continental style cab being put together, in collaberation with a firm I believe was called cab panels. We asked when we might get a chance to drive a motor with this cracking cab on it, they just laughted. There were no plans to build the cab as was but if they did it would have a glassfibre outer skin, also it would only be available to foreign markets, princeply Australia, Asia and Africa .
Also saw a short version of a new fire engine cab they had in development, this was fitted on a 4 wheeler flat bed chassis. We told them it would be a market killer as a 4,6 or even 8 wheeler cab but we just couldnt get them to see the potential in it. To them it would only ever be a fire engine cab and that was it as far as they were concerned, though they thought they might build a version for municiple buyers at some time in the future. While there we had a word with Gardiners man and asked when Gardiner would be turbo charging there 180s. No chance we were told, the future would be the straight 8 they were developing. In their opinion volvo and scania turbos would start blowing up after a short life span. They said the blocks had been bored out to much and were too thin walled and weak for the stresses the turbos would be putting on them. Also asked about the lack of heating from their engines they said they were thinking of putting a water jacket on the top but manufactures wouldn`t give the room to do this as they wanted lower engine humps. The only other option they could suggest was to run an electric heater independent of the engine. So is it any wonder with that type of mindset the British lorry manufacturers had no chance of competing with the cheap, fast, comfortable and warm foreign motors.
Thanks Bender, Fryske, and all for your response.I was only inspiring debate in a subject that we all feel strongly about.My family always ran British lorries ,I am sad that we no longer produce a prime mover lorry. The World now has BMC in Turkey,Ashok Leyland in India, the only legacy we have left for the designers,engineers,production staff,and who worked within the BL banner.Bender I admire your dedication to British products.Do your suppliers ask you for feedback on how well there vans etc., are working.If so, I hope you have the clout to emphasis how productivity and downtime are important in buying the product.I own and run a commercial garage,having invested in diagnostic tools,trying to keep up to date with modern tech,it is becoming more difficult to be a good independant garage.The tech is making life more difficult,longer service intervals,longlife oils,resetting ECUs,adapting egr valves.I could go on .The future isnt British,it`s all about emissions!!! Bo77oX .To553rs. 
Frankydobo:
Austin metro vs VW golf , roadtrain vs 112 - it’s a no brainerI think we are in danger of slagging off the British goods vehicle industry too much for the wrong reasons, Ramone asked why we couldn’t build something to match the 110 or 88 for that matter and the answer is we could, only these vehicles were for export and mainly to hot climates. Companies did make sleeper cabs and bonneted types both with high output engines but they were intended for a different market to Britain. Remember the Swedes were building their latest ventures to not only break into a very difficult and competative British market but for home use too, as well as other countries. Scandinavia as we know doesn’t have the Winters we are experiencing at the moment once in a blue moon as we do but every Winter so they have always built their vehicles accordingly. In Britain the Gaffers didn’t require vehicles to the same standard, they wouldn’t pay more for sleeper cabs and certainly didn’t give a hoot if the driver had a heater or even two wipers that worked.
The manufacturers didn’t get the demand from Britain for what was then seen as luxury items or big engines that drank fuel, a day cab and a Gardner engine was quite sufficient in their eyes to Tramp and Trunk on British roads. It was only when firstly the continental runs showed that changes were needed, however for many years firms had been going abroad using the same standard of vehicles similar to those that never left Britains shores. It was only when the Middle East runs become popular, which at its height was similar to the Gold Rush of the 1800’s, there was money to be made and most wanted a piece of it. Then drivers could see what others were using, instead of the Atkinson with the Pigeon Cree screwed to the back of the cab, there were 110’s, 88’s and others that seemed built for the job and many companies were quick to buy these, the next thing every driver in Britain wanted a Scania or Volvo. For many that didn’t though they still managed with the Marathon, Transcon and other British makes that alas had come on the scene rather too late but more than matched the Scandinavians.
I know many drivers that never drove anything but a British made Lorry and couldn’t see what all the fuss was about with these foreign motors and considered most had gone soft driving vehicles with power steering, heaters and even a bed in the cab which unlike today the majority were not keen on at all as it would effect night out money and other perks when using digs. It wasn’t just the fact that the foreigners led to the downfall of the British Commercial industry, they just happened to be around at the right time, we had foreign motors in this country since the end of the war but they weren’t that impressive, it was a number of factors that rang the death knell, some which could be seen coming and some that couldn’t, there is one sure thing in life, nothing stays the same for ever, who knows what the future holds!
Franky.
Was a “Transcon” a British truck?
Thought they were built in Holland ?
Muckaway:
Nowt wrong with an ERF EC11…
Did BL make ERF’s as well 
No they were an independant firm until Western Star bought them out and then sold them to MAN. I read somewhere not long after the ECXs came out that certain magazine reporters were banned from ERF events because they slated the ECS/ECX models. Perhaps someone with media background can enlighten us?
Was a “Transcon” a British truck?
Thought they were built in Holland ?
We don’t want to really get into where a British or Foreign owned vehicle was assembled, it was a minefield back then as it is now, just because we have Volvo or MAN on the grille doesn’t mean much and back in British Leyland days it was the same. Yes the Transcons were assembled in Amsterdam although they were designed in the UK albeit with a slightly varied Berliet cab, American ■■■■■■■ engine built in Britain etc etc, the assembly was returned to Britain in 1981, to the Paccar owned Sandbach Engineering (ring a bell) as they had the spare room shall we say to build them.
To true the story about the ERF factory and the Gardner engine, there was great dissaproval of fitting turbo’s to their engines by the founder members of the Gardner family and this didn’t change until retirements and changes in the boardroom, however by then Gardner was slipping down the hit parade and never recovered. Definately attitudes along with many other poor managerial decisions took there toll as well as the other problems mentioned already and its sad we have in the space of 50 years no large British manufacturing industry in the country never mind in the transport industry. Maybe the question should be why did Britain fail. Franky.
Muckaway:
No they were an independant firm until Western Star bought them out and then sold them to MAN. I read somewhere not long after the ECXs came out that certain magazine reporters were banned from ERF events because they slated the ECS/ECX models. Perhaps someone with media background can enlighten us?
Not true, I had a small disagreement with one of the ERF bods over a road test when I was at TRUCK, he wanted to squeeze everything into one day, we usually did the test track work and photography on day one, then the test route itself on day two, doing it all in one day was possible, but it wasn’t ideal, the deciding factor was that I would’ve had to leave home at 2am to get up to Charnock Richard (the starting point) early enough to get everything done, I told the bloke that I wouldn’t get out of bed at that time of the morning to drive a gold plated Scania, so there was no way on earth I would do it to drive a [zb]ing ERF 
I attended the next ERF event and it was if it never happened, as a footnote I have to say that when the test was done, over two days 
The ERF absolutely kicked arse round the test route, it was the most economical lorry ever to go around the test route and its light weight and performance gave it the top productivity numbers too 
Was what you said ever written down? I know I’d read about some sort of friction between ERF and mag writers but it sounded more serious than that…
I haven’t commented on this thread until now, but I do believe that most British truck makers didn’t listen to the buying public. Foden couldn’t do much wrong in my opinion (though not everyone will say that! 
) but in a conversation that I had with Reg Knowles, who was a respected Foden dealer in Derbyshire, he stated that every year Foden’s contacted himself (and other dealer’s I guess) to assess any improvement’s that could be made. Each year Reg gave them a list, one item that comes to mind was replacing the useless 11 inch headlamp’s on the S80/83 range with smaller twin lamp’s fitted into a round moulding that would fit into the original space, and each year the same 11 inch lamp’s would still be fitted! In the end Reg did his own conversion kit which sold well, but Foden were not interested in it! He also redesigned the 12 speed gearbox, using Foden component’s, which was demonstrated by having a loaded eight legger parked on a 1 in 6 hill in Matlock. The driver started off with no problem and changed gear twice, without the propshaft dropping off, and Foden’s were impressed but of course never took the option up! Reg eventually gave up with Foden and swapped to selling Fiat truck’s, he said that they listened AND took some of his ideas on board though in his opinion the truck had nothing like the build quality of a Foden.
I guess that most dealer’s of British truck’s could tell similar stories, no good resting on your laurels and assuming that you know best.
Pete.
I still think the in fighting at BL was one of their biggest downfalls.Going back to 1962 Leyland didn`t takeover AEC but merged with them but they still had the upper hand .Some very strange decisions were made by Leyland ,AEC were in advanced stages of developing a rear engined Routemaster but Leyland shelved it in favour of their own design did London Transport buy it…NO the Routemaster still being used in many independent fleets today.AEC also had a large Austailian market but that was also frowned upon by Leyland and subsequently disappeared.The potential was there but the divide between the 2 companies was too wide.When the ergo was introduced it was updated over the years in Leyland form but the AEC version stayed basically the same but their customers stayed loyal.I mentioned on this thread earlier that Lord Stokes tried to kill off AEC as early as 1968 he had another 11 years to wait but he got his wishes but at what expense?
It was a shame that Lord Stokes ever got involved with BMC,he had a very good record at Leyland where he aquired several other companies.Once he was encouraged by the Wilson goverment to try and rescue BMC he never stood a chance.With a mountain of debt,the writing was on the wall.
It failed for the same reason as all the other British manufacturing industries.It’s not the workers fault and British engineering can be the best in the world.But when you’ve got the hostile mixture of an overtaxed economy and too many buyers who have’nt got a clue when it comes to knowing a good product when they see one then it’s obvious that it does’nt matter how good the designers and the workers who put their designs into reality are.The reason why BL built so many zb cars and trucks was because that’s all that most of the British customers wanted and/or could afford.In the car divisions it was Jaguar/Rover/Triumph who were making the products which were able to outperform anything that the foreign competition could make for the price but all their profits were handed over to Austin Morris to turn out more cheap and nasty front wheel drive zb.
The British truck manufacturing industry could also turn out anything that the customer wanted but those customers took too long to come to their senses like the example of Gardner powered ERF’S and Fodens etc being favoured over higher powered trucks like the Bedford TM even before the Euro manufacturers had entered the UK market in a big way.
This is as British as roast beef and yorkshire pudding just like the V12 Jaguar and the Merlin powered Spitfire and even the yanks know a good thing when they see it.It’s just a shame that Scammell did’nt survive to put the yanks Oshkosh in it’s place just like it did with all the Euro competition.
I too think that Leyland were far too interested in killing off the companies they had taken over, Albion, AEC, Scammell and others I can’t recall. They all had a good name and a following of devoted buyers, as it must be said did Leyland, but instead of continually striving to improve their products they seemed to be only interested in the Leyland badged stuff. I drove and owned Scammell Crusaders which were in some ways ahead of their time - power and engineering, but needed some refinement in comfort and user friendliness, a tilt cab for example, but Leyland were pushing the doomed Marathon (which I also drove for a while) at the time.
Then came the T45, with a Scammell version - the 6x2 Scammell Roadtrain, I owned and drove a couple of these - the first one only had option for a Spicer gearbox which just didn’t work for me at all, although the 320 ■■■■■■■ was pretty good. I remember overhauling a 141 Scania up Windy Hill while fully freighted and I thought he was going to cry he looked so mortified (passed by a Leyland). When I came to buy the second one I asked for a 350 ■■■■■■■ and Fuller gearbox, but all I could get was the Fuller and 320 ■■■■■■■■ Leyland said they would send someone to train me to use the Spicer box but I declined. Apparently rather than change the unpopular Spicer gearbox they now employed someone to go round re-educating drivers.
I also managed to obtain a Scammell nameplate from the S26:
The motor I bought was to be painted black all over and fitted with the Scammell plate at Lex Tillotson’s in Hull, and Leyland heard about the colour scheme and phoned me for permission to put it in the Leyland magazine as they hadn’t seen an all black one - I agreed and when I went to collect it I asked how the photo shoot went, apparently as soon as they saw Scammell they turned and walked away!
Am I the only one who sees a similarity between the Constructor and the DAF CF?
Maybe Leyland didn’t totally fail after all?
Muckaway:
Am I the only one who sees a similarity between the Constructor and the DAF CF?
Maybe Leyland didn’t totally fail after all?
Well Muckaway they’re both green!!
And they’ve both got those crap quarterlight windows. If they’re going to fit them, make them open like the Bison
If the worst happens and I get one, I think I’m going to remove DAF badge and put a Leyland badge in it’s place
Like Steve Cook just explained you got what they wanted to sell not what you wanted to buy,if only they would have listened
ramone:
Like Steve Cook just explained you got what they wanted to sell not what you wanted to buy,if only they would have listened
But in many cases if you’d got what the British manufacturers wanted to sell that would actually have meant that instead of drivers getting a day cab plastic Foden or ERF with a Gardner in it they would have got something like a Bedford TM with a 400 + horsepower motor but those only went for export because the Brit guvnors did’nt want decent comfortable trucks,with those type of outputs,until it was too late for the British manufacturers,who,unlike the Euro manufacturers, did’nt have the strong home market that you need to base an export operation on.