I’m sure this topic has come up many times before, but please bear with me here I am new to the industry. I am 23 doing an apprenticeship as a Driver Compliance Manager/Officer whatever u want to call it. I started in May of this year, basically, I lost my old job in an amazon warehouse due to covid and BS and had connections in a certain haulage company and got on an apprenticeship scheme. I did the Transport Manager CPC in September and passed, though what is it they say? …You only retain about 20% of stuff you’re taught, lol right.
Enough about me. I work with two guys who have like 60 years experience between them working for VOSA (DVSA as it is now). But I quite often find myself receiving conflicting advice from the pair especially when the other is not around. We have had multiple discussions on this particular subject but I have never had a clear answer as they never seem to sure themselves, one of them tells me it is an infringement and they can get in trouble for it and the other says it isn’t an infringement and it’s not an issue. So here is my question and my understanding.
On dual carriageways and motorways a hgv of over 7.5 tonnes max laden weight (I only really deal with 44 ton artics) has a speed limit of 60mph(96kph) in England and Wales. So, then why do they get an overspeed infringement on there tacho report for doing 56(90)-60(96)? and does it mean anything & can it lead to a fine? Obviously anything over 60(96.5) is an overspeed so I get that. We are usually only concerned with 100kph+ especially when it becomes frequent. But I still have to sign and send out tacho reports that only have overspeed infringements less than 60mph, and the driver is still expected to sign and return it too. On infringement reports we can produce over certain time periods, all these show up and so infringement counts can get quite numerous which is annoying.
One of my colleagues told me the 56mph limit is a UK domestic regulation which confused me as I was under the impression it was a European regulation where it was just the tachograph had to have a limiter set to a max of 56mph(90kph), if the vehicle runs over, i.e. going down hill it only records an over speed if it’s over 56mph for more than a minute. Right? Our tacho reports give the time that it was over 56mph for, the average speed it did in that time, and the max it did. On very odd occasions the max have been like 120kph or 75mph. Is there other regulations regarding this? Pretty much I want a definitive answer as to whether doing 56-60 is actually an infringement or what?
It’s an infringement, but it’s not illegal. No-one has ever been fined for exceeding the 56mph/90kph tachograph overspeed “limit” on a dual carriageway or Motorway.
Think of it as rules within rules. Using your example, if we read the Highway Code the max speed for the LGV on m’way is 60mph. Correct? Wrong. And yet their speed limiter is probably at 56mph. If its Cat 2/3 STGO, it’s only 40mph and yet its an LGV so why can’t it do 60? Well, there are other rules in place that mean it is limited to a lower speed. Thats the concept
Think of it as rules within rules. Remember those Operator undertakings about laws relating to the vehicles being driven, speed limits and the overarching idea of ‘safety’. Speed limiters are a safety device and defeating or overriding it is naughty. So, look at what the driver has to do to get a speed infringement flag up, its not just a momentary excess over 56.
Thats what you are responding to. To the idea the driver could or even should have eased off on the pedal.
Not breaking one rule does not mean you might not be breaking another.
Getting personal, but how about asking your mentors if, when they do the next round of infringements, they personally write that it is not an infringement and they will not take action about it, and by the way, if its the right thing to do, do they mind if you send a copy to the Traffic Commissioner for verification. I’m guessing You’d get an xmas card from the TC but not your mentor.
Overspeeds will not get you fined or
Hauled Infront of the Commissioner, Unless they are continueass, eg exceed 2-3mins and don’t slow, indicating a malfunction speed limiter.
Managers trying to prove a point, or those trying to climb the corporate ar5e will try to say it’s illegal, it isn’t, ask any DVSA man.
Now get caught going over 60mph downhill for .25 of a mile by a RPU you will get either told off, or a TOR. Don’t ask but I know.
sapper:
next time your vehicles get a tacho calibration, ask them to up the overspeed to 60, problem solved, no more infringments for exceeding 56mph.
Happy to help
Sapper
Can’t tell if this is a joke or not, but isn’t that illegal? Get into a crash and you’re crewed. Also I don’t make those decisions anyway and with over 700 vehicles in the fleet that’d surely be a good way to increase our ocrs score and bring unwanted attention
Roymondo:
It’s an infringement, but it’s not illegal. No-one has ever been fined for exceeding the 56mph/90kph tachograph overspeed “limit” on a dual carriageway or Motorway.
Okay, thanks for clarifying that. What is your opinion on making drivers sign for overspeeds that are under 60mph?
Deycallmethetachoman:
What is your opinion on making drivers sign for overspeeds that are under 60mph?
I can understand why companies do it, but TBH I think it’s a somewhat pointless exercise and may even be counter-productive. Infringement notices are supposed to be flagging up breaches of tachograph/drivers hours/working time regulations. Issuing them for things which don’t contravene any regulations makes a mockery of the whole idea (in the eyes of many drivers).
Acorn:
Think of it as rules within rules. Using your example, if we read the Highway Code the max speed for the LGV on m’way is 60mph. Correct? Wrong. And yet their speed limiter is probably at 56mph. If its Cat 2/3 STGO, it’s only 40mph and yet its an LGV so why can’t it do 60? Well, there are other rules in place that mean it is limited to a lower speed. Thats the concept
Think of it as rules within rules. Remember those Operator undertakings about laws relating to the vehicles being driven, speed limits and the overarching idea of ‘safety’. Speed limiters are a safety device and defeating or overriding it is naughty. So, look at what the driver has to do to get a speed infringement flag up, its not just a momentary excess over 56.
Thats what you are responding to. To the idea the driver could or even should have eased off on the pedal.
Not breaking one rule does not mean you might not be breaking another.
Getting personal, but how about asking your mentors if, when they do the next round of infringements, they personally write that it is not an infringement and they will not take action about it, and by the way, if its the right thing to do, do they mind if you send a copy to the Traffic Commissioner for verification. I’m guessing You’d get an xmas card from the TC but not your mentor.
Okay thanks for clarifying. And I don’t know what you mean about the getting personal part, do you mean if were telling drivers it’s not an infringement and they aren’t gonna do anything about it and the Traffic Commissioner caught wind then we’d be in bother?
Deycallmethetachoman:
Okay thanks for clarifying. And I don’t know what you mean about the getting personal part, do you mean if were telling drivers it’s not an infringement and they aren’t gonna do anything about it and the Traffic Commissioner caught wind then we’d be in bother?
Oops, personal was meant to read practical. IMHO, its about being pro-active. We know the vehicle is speed limited to 56mph. If we ignore it and over time it becomes defective or the driver ‘defeats’ it, then the TC would be very unhappy that it was ignored.
It is a bit of a catch 22. IMHO, if the TM and Operator are trying to demonstrate safe operations, then managing driver behaviour is all part of that process. How the infringement is managed, is up to the TM/Operator. Big difference between 1-2 mins excess to 20-30mins excess.
That infringement on paper says the driver just kept their foot to the floor regardless of what was displayed on the speedo, so was it a sign they were in phased out mode and didn’t realise or didn’t care or perhaps they are required to do it because the planners, ops manager encourages / expects them to do it. Unless you ask about it, you’ll never know. Perhaps the infringements arise because of the back office pressure on drivers!!! I know some drivers will say it’s necessary and such like, but…
Deycallmethetachoman:
Okay thanks for clarifying. And I don’t know what you mean about the getting personal part, do you mean if were telling drivers it’s not an infringement and they aren’t gonna do anything about it and the Traffic Commissioner caught wind then we’d be in bother?
Oops, personal was meant to read practical. IMHO, its about being pro-active. We know the vehicle is speed limited to 56mph. If we ignore it and over time it becomes defective or the driver ‘defeats’ it, then the TC would be very unhappy that it was ignored.
It is a bit of a catch 22. IMHO, if the TM and Operator are trying to demonstrate safe operations, then managing driver behaviour is all part of that process. How the infringement is managed, is up to the TM/Operator. Big difference between 1-2 mins excess to 20-30mins excess.
That infringement on paper says the driver just kept their foot to the floor regardless of what was displayed on the speedo, so was it a sign they were in phased out mode and didn’t realise or didn’t care or perhaps they are required to do it because the planners, ops manager encourages / expects them to do it. Unless you ask about it, you’ll never know. Perhaps the infringements arise because of the back office pressure on drivers!!! I know some drivers will say it’s necessary and such like, but…
Ahh that makes more sense. And that’s what my other colleague/manager says, it’s more just if the overspeeds become numerous and nothing is done it might catch the attention of the Traffic Commissioner. I do these presentation talks every so often to new Apprentice Drivers about what my department does, and I tell them about the EU law for the speed limiter to be set at 56mph(90kph) at the highest and how you have to be doing over 56 for over a minute to get an overspeed infringement and that it isn’t illegal but is a tachograph infringement which isn’t going to get them a roadside fine, but if they are consistently getting them dvsa might want to investigate. I was kinda concerned I was telling them the wrong thing but it sounds like I’m not too far from the mark. Like if a drivers getting the occasional overspeed and not much else, it is just a paper exercise really. We have some guys who refuse to sign anything, like dude you not signing your life away, you’re acknowledging that u made an error that is all, and it ends up reflecting badly on them really.
Deycallmethetachoman:
[ you have to be doing over 56 for over a minute y.
Surely it’s the majority of a minute, not over a minute.
Why surely? I wouldn’t know I haven’t spent much time in the cab besides locking in and out and other tacho stuff. But I recall reading on a forum like this that it’s over a minute, or could just have been that the limiter warning light comes on after a minute? Idk, but on my infringement reports it shows the start and end time of the overspeed and it is always more than a minute. I guess that’s either because they see the warning light when it comes on after a minute and slow down or because the tachograph only records it as an infringement if it’s for more than a minute. I’m inclined to think it’s the latter as we get dozens of overspeeds a week and they are all more than a minute.
Deycallmethetachoman:
[ you have to be doing over 56 for over a minute y.
Surely it’s the majority of a minute, not over a minute.
No, you’ll only get an overspeed recorded on your card if the speed is over the preset threshold (which may or may not be 56mph) for more than one minute. Depending on the vehicle you will likely get some form of warning at around 50 seconds, giving you time to reduce speed before the minute has elapsed, and you may well get an earlier warning - often just a warning light on the dash as soon as you pass the threshold speed.
As far as I know…… if you have a limited vehicle ( 90km ) then you should keep to that, new trucks like the 19 plate I drive comes with automatic braking at 60 miles per hour…. My Tachograph still shows overspending after 90km if I was to be involved in an accident then the Tachograph would no doubt be brought into evidence… if the dvsa where looking for something to pin on you then repeated over speeding would show you as driving without due care and attention, if it’s the odd one here and there most will let it slide….
That being said anything above 60 miles an hour on any road in a HGV is above the legal limit [emoji1303]
lmp198181:
As far as I know…… if you have a limited vehicle ( 90km ) then you should keep to that, new trucks like the 19 plate I drive comes with automatic braking at 60 miles per hour…. My Tachograph still shows overspending after 90km if I was to be involved in an accident then the Tachograph would no doubt be brought into evidence… if the dvsa where looking for something to pin on you then repeated over speeding would show you as driving without due care and attention, Tapatalk
Why? If something is not illegal, and there’s no other evidence that 59mph was not careful (ignoring for a moment the accident) how could anyone pin something on you?
lmp198181:
As far as I know…… if you have a limited vehicle ( 90km ) then you should keep to that, new trucks like the 19 plate I drive comes with automatic braking at 60 miles per hour…. My Tachograph still shows overspending after 90km if I was to be involved in an accident then the Tachograph would no doubt be brought into evidence… if the dvsa where looking for something to pin on you then repeated over speeding would show you as driving without due care and attention, Tapatalk
Why? If something is not illegal, and there’s no other evidence that 59mph was not careful (ignoring for a moment the accident) how could anyone pin something on you?
I think it becomes a safety issue…. How and why are you getting the truck to go over it’s limiter? We have just ordered our next new trucks for 2023 from MAN…… they are limited to 56mph as required by EU legislation, we have no say in the matter even though in the UK we can go 60 mph
I think you are right though if you are over speeding ( infringement ) but under 60 mph and doing so in a safe and reasonable manner then other than an accident the driver should be ok
My only question is why the driver would even risk his safety or the safety of others for the sake of saving a minute or two of his journey?
On a side note, I have a little girl who is 7 and I ask her what is daddies number one job at work? “ to come home safe to me “
I’ve seen 3 covered bodies on the motorway this year and that’s only on the routes I take, so how many more bodies am I not seeing
If you are in control of monitoring infringements for the company and you want this to become easier to deal with, next tool box talk, you get the drivers to sign a letter to confirm they understand that overspeed infringements will now be part of the companies health and safety procedures and will carry verbal warnings, written warnings and disciplinary action ( loss of shift, loss of overtime )
Mate ^^^^ you’re in danger of falling into the trap of believing all the ■■■■■■■■ that office bound pointy shoes and underemployed driver trainers tell you. Overspeeds (at 60mph or under) are NOT a safety issue. How can a vehicle that is perfectly safe at 56mph suddenly become an out of control behemoth at 59mph? The simple answer is that it can’t (with the obvious proviso of road conditions etc).
Quite simply put, anything up to and including 60mph is perfectly legal depending on the class of road and any such infringements will be dismissed by the authorities. You could come back and say “yeah but in the event of an accident……” and that is as true at 59mph as it is at 39mph if it was deemed too fast for the conditions.
Infringements for speeds up to 60mph are purely and simply a company thing, nothing more, nothing less.
the maoster:
Mate ^^^^ you’re in danger of falling into the trap of believing all the ■■■■■■■■ that office bound pointy shoes and underemployed driver trainers tell you. Overspeeds (at 60mph or under) are NOT a safety issue. How can a vehicle that is perfectly safe at 56mph suddenly become an out of control behemoth at 59mph? The simple answer is that it can’t (with the obvious proviso of road conditions etc).
Quite simply put, anything up to and including 60mph is perfectly legal depending on the class of road and any such infringements will be dismissed by the authorities. You could come back and say “yeah but in the event of an accident……” and that is as true at 59mph as it is at 39mph if it was deemed too fast for the conditions.
Infringements for speeds up to 60mph are purely and simply a company thing, nothing more, nothing less.
All fair points [emoji1303]
Should just be a company issue…
As long as road conditions are in consideration and no accidents
lmp198181:
As far as I know…… if you have a limited vehicle ( 90km ) then you should keep to that, new trucks like the 19 plate I drive comes with automatic braking at 60 miles per hour…. My Tachograph still shows overspending after 90km if I was to be involved in an accident then the Tachograph would no doubt be brought into evidence… if the dvsa where looking for something to pin on you then repeated over speeding would show you as driving without due care and attention, Tapatalk
Why? If something is not illegal, and there’s no other evidence that 59mph was not careful (ignoring for a moment the accident) how could anyone pin something on you?
I think it becomes a safety issue…. How and why are you getting the truck to go over it’s limiter? We have just ordered our next new trucks for 2023 from MAN…… they are limited to 56mph as required by EU legislation, we have no say in the matter even though in the UK we can go 60 mph
I think you are right though if you are over speeding ( infringement ) but under 60 mph and doing so in a safe and reasonable manner then other than an accident the driver should be ok
My only question is why the driver would even risk his safety or the safety of others for the sake of saving a minute or two of his journey?
On a side note, I have a little girl who is 7 and I ask her what is daddies number one job at work? “ to come home safe to me “
I’ve seen 3 covered bodies on the motorway this year and that’s only on the routes I take, so how many more bodies am I not seeing
If you are in control of monitoring infringements for the company and you want this to become easier to deal with, next tool box talk, you get the drivers to sign a letter to confirm they understand that overspeed infringements will now be part of the companies health and safety procedures and will carry verbal warnings, written warnings and disciplinary action ( loss of shift, loss of overtime )
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Arghh, haven’t spent much time on these kinda forums on desktop, I hope I’m writing in the right place haha.
I appreciate the responses, it’s always helpful to get insight from people with more experience than me (which is almost everyone lol). Sooo, the EU has regulations for calibrating the speed limiter to 90kph(56mph) as that is what they deemed a safe limit I guess, and I think most European motorways don’t have a speed limit higher than tht besides like Romania and such places. So the tacho only records an overspeed if you go over that speed for longer than a minute anyway, but it is just a tacho limiter infringement, not breaking the law of the road speed limit. But you are essentially saying that 60mph is a limit not a target. We prefer our vehicles doing like 54 because it’s more economical, but also the more MPG our drivers can do the bigger the fuel bonus they get from the company, and it’s a decent amount so I don’t see why anyone would want to speed really. Also 90kph (56mph) is the max speed that can be legally set for the limiter so it can be set less so we could do like 54mph if we wanted. But yeah realistically unless you are in a crash it won’t even be looked at by the authorities right? If you are stopped at the roadside by authorities how is your tacho checked? Do they take the driver card and put it in their machine or do they put their control card in the vehicles tacho to retrieve the data? If it’s the former, doesn’t the driver card only hold 28 days of data and it doesn’t have overspeed records on either? But if they check the tacho in the vehicle then obvs they have up to a years worth of data and all the overspeed records too.