What this discussion needs is for someone who held a senior position in Paccar or Mack, in the '60s or '70s, to give his/her opinion. In the absence of this, I will pose a question: Which subsidiary of a well-known US-based lorry manufacturer leads the market for tractor units in both Britain and Europe? Clue- it is neither Kenworth nor Peterbilt.
Carryfast:
Carryfast:
Yes would/could/should because there’s not much point in pointing out where the problems were and the reasons for them without ‘also’ showing the alternatives of what could/‘should’ have happened instead.
But actually there is a point , that being the title of the thread " WHAT WENT WRONG "
It does not ask for solutions , it does not ask for our hypothetical alternatives , the crux of the matter being that it did go wrong for all the reasons previously stated & more , such as all manufacturers being far less customer orientated , & building what they THOUGHT customers wanted , customer feedback , well that was for some distant time in the future , no one being bold enough to bring in a more radical alternative , but we are talking about the British Lorry Industry , & one stereotype quality of British people is not to rock the boat , just put up with our lot , so is it really so surprising that no thinking outside the box took place , other European makers moved in & the British Lorry Industry cracked under pressure .
The alternatives you suggest could / should have happened simply did not happen as we all sit here with the wonderful benefit of hindsight , fully aware of the way things panned out .
If on the other hand , this topic was titled What is Going Wrong & How Can It Be Changed , well there would be an opportunity of suggesting alternatives , such as being saved by an influx American manufacturers or their products .
Still , until someone invents a time machine & we can travel back in time & alter history , some would no doubt alter it to have a vibrant British Lorry Industry , whilst others would amend it to something none of us would recognise , some can remain true to the topic title & others can paint a picture of what they would have liked to happen , but never actually did .
[zb]
anorak:
What this discussion needs is for all/any of those who held a position in British Leyland Group,Bedford and Fodens etc and the relevant convenors,representatives and leaders and of the vehicle manufacturing unions, in the '60s or '70s, to give his/her opinion.
Fixed that. 
But unfortunately most,if not all of them,are either no longer with us or could no longer care ever since they lost their jobs and their members. 
Casual Observer:
Carryfast:
Carryfast:
Yes would/could/should because there’s not much point in pointing out where the problems were and the reasons for them without ‘also’ showing the alternatives of what could/‘should’ have happened instead.
But actually there is a point , that being the title of the thread " WHAT WENT WRONG "
It does not ask for solutions , it does not ask for our hypothetical alternatives , the crux of the matter being that it did go wrong for all the reasons previously stated & more , such as all manufacturers being far less customer orientated , & building what they THOUGHT customers wanted , customer feedback , well that was for some distant time in the future , no one being bold enough to bring in a more radical alternative , but we are talking about the British Lorry Industry , & one stereotype quality of British people is not to rock the boat , just put up with our lot , so is it really so surprising that no thinking outside the box took place , other European makers moved in & the British Lorry Industry cracked under pressure .
The alternatives you suggest could / should have happened simply did not happen as we all sit here with the wonderful benefit of hindsight , fully aware of the way things panned out .
If on the other hand , this topic was titled What is Going Wrong & How Can It Be Changed , well there would be an opportunity of suggesting alternatives , such as being saved by an influx American manufacturers or their products .
Still , until someone invents a time machine & we can travel back in time & alter history , some would no doubt alter it to have a vibrant British Lorry Industry , whilst others would amend it to something none of us would recognise , some can remain true to the topic title & others can paint a picture of what they would have liked to happen , but never actually did .
It might come as a shock to you but everything I’ve said isn’t hindsight it’s exactly the type of discussions that were taking place within the industry at the time.They were thinking outside the box and they knew exactly what it was that they needed to be developing and building.Unfortunately for them had they done so they would have just gone under far sooner.
Luckily for me when I left school I went to work for a vehicle manufacturer that mostly relied on exports to markets that were asking for what the British could turn out given the right customer base.However had those wagons not been built using American power units and transmission technology I probably would have been one of Oliver’s Army that Elvis Costello sang about.
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
What this discussion needs is for all/any of those who held a position in British Leyland Group,Bedford and Fodens etc and the relevant convenors,representatives and leaders and of the vehicle manufacturing unions, in the '60s or '70s, to give his/her opinion.Fixed that.
But unfortunately most,if not all of them,are either no longer with us or could no longer care ever since they lost their jobs and their members.
OI! I DIDN’T SAY THAT^^^^. Please replace it with my original post. I don’t want everyone thinking I’m a nutcase.
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
What this discussion needs is for all/any of those who held a position in British Leyland Group,Bedford and Fodens etc and the relevant convenors,representatives and leaders and of the vehicle manufacturing unions, in the '60s or '70s, to give his/her opinion.Fixed that.
But unfortunately most,if not all of them,are either no longer with us or could no longer care ever since they lost their jobs and their members.
OI! I DIDN’T SAY THAT^^^^. Please replace it with my original post. I don’t want everyone thinking I’m a nutcase.
Why 
.Surely you’re not scared of hearing the truth just as I’ve been trying to explain it instead of the last 30 + years of Tory re writing of history.
If all these American trucks were so bloody good why did they want to buy fire engines from Britain then?
Was it because the American trucks were so crap or that the British trucks were crap?
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
What this discussion needs is for all/any of those who held a position in British Leyland Group,Bedford and Fodens etc and the relevant convenors,representatives and leaders and of the vehicle manufacturing unions, in the '60s or '70s, to give his/her opinion.Fixed that.
But unfortunately most,if not all of them,are either no longer with us or could no longer care ever since they lost their jobs and their members.
Moderators- this Member is altering people’s posts and then posting the doctored text as an original quote. Surely there must be a rule against this?
Wheel Nut:
If all these American trucks were so bloody good why did they want to buy fire engines from Britain then?
In this case it was the idea of putting zb great big powerful American two stroke engines and transmissions together with good British pumps,foam monitor and Scammell based chassis/suspension amongst a few other ideas which created the situation of being able to sell coals to newcastle amongst other parts of the world.For a while anyway.
Until the 1980’s happened. 
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
What this discussion needs is for all/any of those who held a position in British Leyland Group,Bedford and Fodens etc and the relevant convenors,representatives and leaders and of the vehicle manufacturing unions, in the '60s or '70s, to give his/her opinion.Fixed that.
But unfortunately most,if not all of them,are either no longer with us or could no longer care ever since they lost their jobs and their members.
Moderators- this Member is altering people’s posts and then posting the doctored text as an original quote. Surely there must be a rule against this?
Don’t take it all so seriously it happens all the time on here everyone can see that it’s just an altered post to make a point.Usually together with the words ‘Fixed That’ or FTFY.
I can just picture “Carryfart” on the “Jeremy Kyle” show it would suit him, i think a latin word was invented for him - te dium
I found an old copy of Truck and Driver today at a place i was delivering to and there was a letter sent in from a driver who had emigrated to the US a number of years ago .In this letter amongst other things he mentioned his strong dislike of American trucks saying they were thirsty ,they had turning circles of the QE2 , dash boards that were 20 years out of date,they were uncomfortable and generally old fashioned ,his parting shot was i wish i had a decent Scania ,but what would he know he only drove them on a daily basis.Back to the real question,if you went back to 1972 and looked at what was on offer how many of those lorries would you want to drive on a regular basis today ,i think the AECs ,Atkis ,Leylands,Fodens ,ERFs and so on would be very difficult to live with but you may get away with 1 of the then higher powered Volvos or Scanias and to think about it nothing else from the continent.Having said that Speirs of Melksham were still running sleeper cabbed Mandators in the early `90s those drivers must have had hearts of gold
LB76:
I can just picture “Carryfart” on the “Jeremy Kyle” show it would suit him, i think a latin word was invented for him - te dium
I actually gave him credit for one sentence of sense earlier, and he repays me by putting my name to a deluge of clinker.
LB76:
I can just picture “Carryfart” on the “Jeremy Kyle” show it would suit him, i think a latin word was invented for him - te dium
I can think of another word that was probably invented for him but it will only get censored so i wont bother 
Carryfast:
It might come as a shock to you but everything I’ve saidSurprisingly enough , nothing you say or have said comes as a shock , either to myself , or I suspect most members on here
You also refer to the Tories re writing of history , but then you have a ■■■■ good attempt at doing the exact same by attempting to convince lesser mortals than American manufactures & products came valiantly over here & saved the day .
ramone:
I found an old copy of Truck and Driver today at a place i was delivering to and there was a letter sent in from a driver who had emigrated to the US a number of years ago .In this letter amongst other things he mentioned his strong dislike of American trucks saying they were thirsty ,they had turning circles of the QE2 , dash boards that were 20 years out of date,they were uncomfortable and generally old fashioned ,his parting shot was i wish i had a decent Scania ,but what would he know he only drove them on a daily basis.Back to the real question,if you went back to 1972 and looked at what was on offer how many of those lorries would you want to drive on a regular basis today ,i think the AECs ,Atkis ,Leylands,Fodens ,ERFs and so on would be very difficult to live with but you may get away with 1 of the then higher powered Volvos or Scanias and to think about it nothing else from the continent.Having said that Speirs of Melksham were still running sleeper cabbed Mandators in the early `90s those drivers must have had hearts of gold
Firstly there’s a big difference between a big conventional unit and a cab over of the type that were used here.The subject of the drawbacks of using a conventional compared to a cab over is just a matter of personal preferance and weighing up the advantages against the disadvantages and in many markets the advantages of the conventional are still often seen by many drivers and operators as outweighing their disadvantages or they would have been consigned to history everywhere by now.
However in the case of a British manufacturing operation for the British and Euro markets it seems obvious that the designs used would have been cab overs not conventionals and the difference between those or any other type of comparable euro type would have been as close as made no difference as seems to be shown in the case of their actual use in British and European haulage operations shown in the Kenworths in the UK topic.
If you actually went back to 1972 I think the typical types of truck specifications chosen and demanded by most British customers would have been exactly those old out dated designs of uncomfortable,under powered AEC’s,Atkis,Leylands,Fodens etc just as they would have ordered 10 years + before that time with no definite identifiable change in those buying habits in the foreseeable future which the British manufacturers could have used to justify major outlay and committment of rescources to develop anything much better.The compromised T 45 effort (compared to the DAF 2800) and the point in time where they were respectively introduced and the fortunes of DAF compared to Leyland,after that point in time,seems to prove that.
Casual Observer:
Carryfast:
It might come as a shock to you but everything I’ve saidSurprisingly enough , nothing you say or have said comes as a shock , either to myself , or I suspect most members on here
You also refer to the Tories re writing of history , but then you have a ■■■■ good attempt at doing the exact same by attempting to convince lesser mortals than American manufactures & products came valiantly over here & saved the day .
No I’m trying to convince those who believe the tory version of history that making American trucks would have been the only way to repair the damage done to the development of British trucks and the British truck manufacturing industry,by the outdated demands of it’s customers.Just as it was the way chosen to start up the Australian truck manufacturing industry.
However all of the damage done to the British economy and British industry as a whole by the Callaghan Labour government and then the Tory Thatcher one would still have happened so it wouldn’t have made any difference to the final outcome.
You make the kenworth in the uk thread sound like they were selling huge numbers of trucks here in the 70s and 80s I’d bet there were less than 1000 american trucksin the whole of the EEC and most were probally on the middle east work or at least on European work along with a bit of low loader work.
Evening all, well its been a b… long, and I am afraid problem filled day, then I dial in to see if there is anything of interest on this thread. No, neither has the question that I posed re Leyland and Bedford, nor that of [ZB] anorak, received any response!! Shamefull in the extreme, Gentlemen from your previous posts I can see that there are intelligent commentators, (perhaps excluding the US at all costs opinions) Ok, so what of the good engineers at Commer, then Dodge, who were totally subjugated under the American Chrysler management, their neighbours at Bedford, (and let no man say ill of all of their products),and their Spanish cousins, who really came out of their corner fighting when Renault tried to subjugate them into a corporate blandness!! Look for the root causes of the decline, it is history now, but think on, what you have to work with today, have not the attitudes to the customer slipped back to below the levels of the major UK players in the 70s? Well, have they?? I`m off to give the Bollinger a bending, (and b…the Govt guidelines), Cheerio for now.
kr79:
You make the kenworth in the uk thread sound like they were selling huge numbers of trucks here in the 70s and 80s I’d bet there were less than 1000 american trucksin the whole of the EEC and most were probally on the middle east work or at least on European work along with a bit of low loader work.
I ‘actually’ used the Kenworths in the UK thread,amongst other evidence,to prove,that contrary to all the bs,the things were usable and viable wagons in the British and/or European environments,in just the same way that they are viable in places like New Zealand and throughout North America where there are plenty of similar type operating environments as you’d find in Britain or Europe.
The fact that they wouldn’t have been selling,in a market environment where it had been day cabbed Gardner powered Atkis and the like which were the wagon of choice,at the time when the development of much better trucks mattered,isn’t surprising,and it’s not surprising that they weren’t being used in large numbers.Which was exactly the problem at the time as to why no British manufacturer could justify spending the resources on developing British trucks to match them and which could therefore beat the European and Scandinavian competition that was heading our way.
Assuming that a turbocharged Detroit 8V92 or CAT 3408 or 6 cylinder ■■■■■■■ or CAT 3406 powered KW Aerodyne couldn’t dominate the British market why do you think that a mythical V8 powered AEC with a big comfortable cab,or a much better Leyland competitor to the DAF 2800 than the T 45 would have been ? bearing in mind the amount of development and production costs you’d need to be risking to find out .
However Bedford was probably the only British manufacturer which actually did try to answer the question with the TM.The rest is history.