What went wrong

[ramone]

Carryfast:

ramone:
What went wrong ■■? Carryfast hijacked another thread with his drivell and [zb] regarding the pros of American trucks and the cons of every other manufacturer on the planet.
1 question i never got a straight forward answer to from a similar thread when i asked him (we`re going round in circles here) was if it was the hauliers fault that British manufactures failed due to their liking of Atkis with 180 Gardners who on earth bought the higher powered foreign invaders in the first place to make them so successfull if it wasnt the very same hauliers?
I know 1 haulier on here who he quotes regularily bought the Atkis he mentioned but progressed onto higher powered foreign vehicles ,something that contradicts his theory.The basic problem with British lorries were they were outdated uncomfortable and in some cases unreliable , and the british manufacturers didnt have the money and know how to produce a cab compareable to the Swedes at least.Sorry to bang on about AEC but the Mandator was around 205 - 226 bhp coupled to a six speed constant mesh gearbox and a noisey drafty cab trying to compete against a F86 with around 200bhp 8 speed synchro box and a warmer quieter cab.Atkis , Fodens , ERFs and Leylands were similar albeit some with 9 speed boxes

It’s not a question of British hauliers not buying the higher powered more comfortable invaders it’s a question of when and the problem for the domestic manufacturers in the all important home market,which the foreign ones didn’t have in their home markets,was that all the answers,to the problem,in the domestic market,(rightly) came back saying it’s going to take too long and we can’t spend money we don’t have on designing and making loads of better wagons which the stupid zb’s won’t buy,for at least another 5-10 years or so.So zb it just put together something cheap,quick and nasty like the T 45 later on and leave DAF etc etc to get on with it.

But they started selling slowly at first til word got around from the start in the 60s ■■?

[carryfast]

[zb]
anorak:
I commend our friend for the effort he puts into his posts, and some of his stuff is well thought-through. However, the notion that the GB lorry builders should have taken on the Continentals by adopting US engineering wholesale?

If any company could have succeeded with this, surely it was the Americans themselves. They had the money to do it but they either didn’t bother or, when they did, it came to nought. Mack tried all sorts in the 1960s- collaborations with Bernard and Unic, European cabs from Pelpel(?) and Motor Panels. They had good sales to operators in the Middle East, and International had an assembly plant in Turkey(?)- even with this springboard, they did not break into Europe.

Mack seemed to have, on the face of it, a Euro-friendly product- a big, modern (for 1962) steel cab rather than the fibreglass and riveted aluminium sheds favoured by their compatriots, but people who drove Macks in the 1970s have recorded their opinions of them on this forum and they are not universally positive. Many called them the “Yankee Atki.”

Some zb Atki.

youtube.com/watch?v=b_-Lz9i6 … creen&NR=1

[wheel_nut]

I think he has lost the American battle and is now turning to New Zealand. Has he got a new book to read?

Different territory, different landscape, different vehicle weights. Common language.

China should buy American trucks, let them copy them, it wouldn’t affect the European market then, just prove that nobody wants them, however cheap they become

[carryfast]

ramone:

Carryfast:

ramone:
What went wrong ■■? Carryfast hijacked another thread with his drivell and [zb] regarding the pros of American trucks and the cons of every other manufacturer on the planet.
1 question i never got a straight forward answer to from a similar thread when i asked him (we`re going round in circles here) was if it was the hauliers fault that British manufactures failed due to their liking of Atkis with 180 Gardners who on earth bought the higher powered foreign invaders in the first place to make them so successfull if it wasnt the very same hauliers?
I know 1 haulier on here who he quotes regularily bought the Atkis he mentioned but progressed onto higher powered foreign vehicles ,something that contradicts his theory.The basic problem with British lorries were they were outdated uncomfortable and in some cases unreliable , and the british manufacturers didnt have the money and know how to produce a cab compareable to the Swedes at least.Sorry to bang on about AEC but the Mandator was around 205 - 226 bhp coupled to a six speed constant mesh gearbox and a noisey drafty cab trying to compete against a F86 with around 200bhp 8 speed synchro box and a warmer quieter cab.Atkis , Fodens , ERFs and Leylands were similar albeit some with 9 speed boxes

It’s not a question of British hauliers not buying the higher powered more comfortable invaders it’s a question of when and the problem for the domestic manufacturers in the all important home market,which the foreign ones didn’t have in their home markets,was that all the answers,to the problem,in the domestic market,(rightly) came back saying it’s going to take too long and we can’t spend money we don’t have on designing and making loads of better wagons which the stupid zb’s won’t buy,for at least another 5-10 years or so.So zb it just put together something cheap,quick and nasty like the T 45 later on and leave DAF etc etc to get on with it.

But they started selling slowly at first til word got around from the start in the 60s ■■?

From the point of view of the combined production capacity of all the British manufacturers at the time ‘slowly’ was effectively the same thing as none at all and unviable in respect of the investment costs required for development and then having loads of trucks sitting unsold with their dealers shouting why are you producing all these luxurious over powered wagons and why the zb have you stopped the supply of day cabbed Gardner powered Atkis etc etc which we could sell in the numbers required to keep the bank off your back and keep your workforce in work.

But the timeline of the 1960’s seems a bit unrealistic more like mid 1970’s as things stood on the domestic market when trucks like the DAF 2800 were available.The 1960’s here things were,in general,even more primitive than the 1970’s,if that’s possible.

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:
I think he has lost the American battle and is now turning to New Zealand. Has he got a new book to read?

Different territory, different landscape, different vehicle weights. Common language.

China should buy American trucks, let them copy them, it wouldn’t affect the European market then, just prove that nobody wants them, however cheap they become

I think the the topic title is all about the fact that no wanted British wagons when the same problem didn’t affect American ones.

New Zealand isn’t such a different lanscape at all,just like many in many parts of the US are more like England than some parts of England are,and in which there’s plenty of 44 tonner curtainsider artics being pulled by Australian built Kenworth units just as they could have been here and in Europe.

[sammyopisite]

The yankee wagons were unsuitable for the European infer-structure especially in the late 60s and early 70s which is the period when the European manufacturers gained their foothold into the U.K. as they were unable to couple up to a standard trailer with out exceeding the overall length limits and poor steering lock as well as the driver comfort and were never popular in mainland Europe as well as the U.K. hence the very small percentage which were operated on the continent of Europe. This was the possible reason why Mack and White who did set up here failed to make any inroads into our industry.
cheers Johnnie

[casual_observer]

Carryfast:

New Zealand isn’t such a different lanscape at all,just like many in many parts of the US are more like England than some parts of England are,and in which there’s plenty of 44 tonner curtainsider artics being pulled by Australian built Kenworth units just as they could have been here and in Europe.
[/quote]
Could Have Been …

Well that covers everything then … if my Auntie had balls then she could have been my uncle .

I am slightly confused by the wording , would we now be using Australian built American wonder wagons ,or European built versions ?

By the mid 70s , let us not forget , the Americans had a hold of Seddon Atkinson ( IH ) , Bedford ( GM ) , & Fords Transcontinental was basically an American Ford chassis , with proven driveline components & a European cab . GM Diesel divisions Detroits never seriously took hold here ,along with any Major American maker , Kenworth , Mack , Pererbilt etc . As with Fords Transconti , British weight & length restrictions at that time , our fuel being so much more expensive then Americas made them not as an attractive proposition either then or now , so to champion them here begs the question what went wrong with them in Europe .

But ultimately the factors of what went wrong are many & varied .

The opening up of the Common Market thus making trade easier & was actively encouraged ,the proving of early Scanias & Volvos on UK & then Middle East work , the contraction in numbers of manufacturers & continual takeovers , as globalisation was thrust upon us , the workforce unrest , buyer disillusionment , the lack of foresight & investment , standardisation of components , moves toward newer production techniques , being offered the right machine at the right time , back up , a more developed Motorway network , driver comfort issues , the onset of more globally aware marketing for all types of goods all these & many many more issues contributed to What went Wrong , but lorry making is sadly not alone , look at steelmaking , shipbuilding ,from making almost anything to now making almost nothing .

[carryfast]

sammyopisite:
The yankee wagons were unsuitable for the European infer-structure especially in the late 60s and early 70s which is the period when the European manufacturers gained their foothold into the U.K. as they were unable to couple up to a standard trailer with out exceeding the overall length limits and poor steering lock as well as the driver comfort and were never popular in mainland Europe as well as the U.K. hence the very small percentage which were operated on the continent of Europe. This was the possible reason why Mack and White who did set up here failed to make any inroads into our industry.
cheers Johnnie

In what way was the European infra structure of the 1960’s and early 1970’s radically different to that of New Zealand then or now .

If cab over American units were unable to legally couple up to standard trailers and were impossible to manouvre in a typical British yard then how the zb did this topic and photographic evidence get on here .

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=41082&hilit=kenworths+uk

Driver comfort bs.Day cab Atki with solid mounted seat v KW Aerodyne with suspension seat etc etc.

I sometimes wonder if a lot of people on here are having a laugh and are on a wind up.

[carryfast]

Casual Observer:

Carryfast:

New Zealand isn’t such a different lanscape at all,just like many in many parts of the US are more like England than some parts of England are,and in which there’s plenty of 44 tonner curtainsider artics being pulled by Australian built Kenworth units just as they could have been here and in Europe.

Could Have Been …

Well that covers everything then … if my Auntie had balls then she could have been my uncle .

I am slightly confused by the wording , would we now be using Australian built American wonder wagons ,or European built versions ?

By the mid 70s , let us not forget , the Americans had a hold of Seddon Atkinson ( IH ) , Bedford ( GM ) , & Fords Transcontinental was basically an American Ford chassis , with proven driveline components & a European cab . GM Diesel divisions Detroits never seriously took hold here ,along with any Major American maker , Kenworth , Mack , Pererbilt etc . As with Fords Transconti , British weight & length restrictions at that time , our fuel being so much more expensive then Americas made them not as an attractive proposition either then or now , so to champion them here begs the question what went wrong with them in Europe .

But ultimately the factors of what went wrong are many & varied .

The opening up of the Common Market thus making trade easier & was actively encouraged ,the proving of early Scanias & Volvos on UK & then Middle East work , the contraction in numbers of manufacturers & continual takeovers , as globalisation was thrust upon us , the workforce unrest , buyer disillusionment , the lack of foresight & investment , standardisation of components , moves toward newer production techniques , being offered the right machine at the right time , back up , a more developed Motorway network , driver comfort issues , the onset of more globally aware marketing for all types of goods all these & many many more issues contributed to What went Wrong , but lorry making is sadly not alone , look at steelmaking , shipbuilding ,from making almost anything to now making almost nothing .
[/quote]
Yeah right ‘worker unrest’ ‘buyer disillusionment’ blah blah usual zb.The only disillusionment was amongst the British manufacturers’ with their customers,in the domestic market,concerning the continuous zb demands asked of those manufacturers to keep turning out what they knew were zb products with no way of altering the situation in the foreseeable future.

The worker unrest was caused by the need to maintain wage levels and living standards because of the massive rate of price increases in the economy at that time caused by Britain joining the EEC and bringing prices into line with the Continent and the OPEC oil price increase in the world price of oil (which the government ‘could’ have insulated us from by keeping North Sea Oil for ourselves and selling it at pre OPEC increase prices) but the government and employers weren’t so keen when it came to providing German wage levels to match.

Yes would/could/should because there’s not much point in pointing out where the problems were and the reasons for them without ‘also’ showing the alternatives of what could/‘should’ have happened instead.

[wheel_nut]

Carryfast:

sammyopisite:
The yankee wagons were unsuitable for the European infer-structure especially in the late 60s and early 70s which is the period when the European manufacturers gained their foothold into the U.K. as they were unable to couple up to a standard trailer with out exceeding the overall length limits and poor steering lock as well as the driver comfort and were never popular in mainland Europe as well as the U.K. hence the very small percentage which were operated on the continent of Europe. This was the possible reason why Mack and White who did set up here failed to make any inroads into our industry.
cheers Johnnie

In what way was the European infra structure of the 1960’s and early 1970’s radically different to that of New Zealand then or now .

If cab over American units were unable to legally couple up to standard trailers and were impossible to manouvre in a typical British yard then how the zb did this topic and photographic evidence get on here .

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=41082&hilit=kenworths+uk

Driver comfort bs.Day cab Atki with solid mounted seat v KW Aerodyne with suspension seat etc etc.

I sometimes wonder if a lot of people on here are having a laugh and are on a wind up.

Now you really are grasping at straws, using Whitwills as an example of all things cowboy related saving the UK economy.

The blue text I do agree with.

[carryfast]

Wheel Nut:

Carryfast:

sammyopisite:
The yankee wagons were unsuitable for the European infer-structure especially in the late 60s and early 70s which is the period when the European manufacturers gained their foothold into the U.K. as they were unable to couple up to a standard trailer with out exceeding the overall length limits and poor steering lock as well as the driver comfort and were never popular in mainland Europe as well as the U.K. hence the very small percentage which were operated on the continent of Europe. This was the possible reason why Mack and White who did set up here failed to make any inroads into our industry.
cheers Johnnie

In what way was the European infra structure of the 1960’s and early 1970’s radically different to that of New Zealand then or now .

If cab over American units were unable to legally couple up to standard trailers and were impossible to manouvre in a typical British yard then how the zb did this topic and photographic evidence get on here .

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=41082&hilit=kenworths+uk

Driver comfort bs.Day cab Atki with solid mounted seat v KW Aerodyne with suspension seat etc etc.

I sometimes wonder if a lot of people on here are having a laugh and are on a wind up.

Now you really are grasping at straws, using Whitwills as an example of all things cowboy related saving the UK economy.

Saving the British truck manufacturing industry might have been possible (using the same Australian idea of using locally built American designs to set one up in no time from scratch) although not many cowboys in New Zealand because they’ve only got mostly sheep.

That’s before Maggie got in and then finished the whole British manufacturing industry off anyway though.

[lb76]

That’s before Maggie got in and then finished the whole British manufacturing industry off anyway though.

here we go ! (again)

[carryfast]

LB76:
That’s before Maggie got in and then finished the whole British manufacturing industry off anyway though.

here we go ! (again)

That’s exactly what I was thinking of saying as soon as I saw yet more bs about ‘worker unrest’ and ‘buyer disillusionment’.

[rward]

why is it all maggies fault wat about the unions i agree you need them in bad companies but wat obout tilbury dockers fords of haleward lazy useless akward trouble making ■■■■■■■■ wat did they do to help the country or lorry drivers 19 years old liffted 5 gallon drum of lorry in fords wat a riot back too yard called into office by boss told him truth thankfully backed me all the way but i was banned only been there 3 weeks good old george hicks rhiwderin now newport waiting for backlash regards to all

[rward]

why is it all maggies fault wat about the unions i agree you need them in bad companies but wat obout tilbury dockers fords of haleward lazy useless akward trouble making ■■■■■■■■ wat did they do to help the country or lorry drivers 19 years old liffted 5 gallon drum of lorry in fords wat a riot back too yard called into office by boss told him truth thankfully backed me all the way but i was banned only been there 3 weeks good old george hicks rhiwderin now newport waiting for backlash regards to all

[wheel_nut]

LB76:
That’s before Maggie got in and then finished the whole British manufacturing industry off anyway though.

here we go ! (again)

I think this was said with a grin

[kr79]

The locally built kenworths in nz probally owe most of there DNA not to the gold old us of a but to a little division of paccar in Cheshire who along with another Cheshire firm were selling a fair few trucks until recently.

[lb76]

It most certainly was - a big one!

[carryfast]

kr79:
The locally built kenworths in nz probally owe most of there DNA not to the gold old us of a but to a little division of paccar in Cheshire who along with another Cheshire firm were selling a fair few trucks until recently.

The word ‘probably’ in that can ‘probably’ be taken with a large pinch of salt.The ‘locally’ built KW’s in New Zealand ‘probably’ owe ‘all’ of their DNA to the Australian truck manufacturing industry which they’ve had since about the time when ours started going down the tubes over 40 years ago.

[carryfast]

rward:
why is it all maggies fault wat about the unions

You need a strong domestic manufacturing industry with more demand for labour than supply thereby paying wages slightly above the rate of inflation and general price levels for an economy to work.That was the (correct) policy followed by the union members at the time in (trying to) keep wage levels at that level in the face of massive general rates of price increases.None of the governments, and most of the employers we had,during the 1970’s,agreed with that.Which is what caused most,if not all,of the industrial action going on at that time in the manufacturing industries.

Callaghan’s and to a much greater extent Maggie’s answer to that was a policy of direct government control of wages and when that didn’t work starting a policy of mass redundancies and increases in the already high level of imports,in order to artificially increase the supply of Labour relative to demand.

The result is where the economy is now.

However the writing was on the wall for the British truck manufacturing industry before that because,as I’ve said,it’s domestic customer base was too far backward in it’s thinking.As I’ve said the best way to have circumvented the stalling and lag in development,which those deands caused,would have been to do as the Australian truck manufacturing industry did in making locally produced American trucks.

However,as I’ve also said,even if that had have taken place,the ideas of the British government,in using mass redundancy,as a way to control wages,and the ongoing series of economic recessions caused by that policy in the domestic economy,would probably have sunk that operation anyway together with most of the other British manufacturing industries.

But it’s not unusual for the tories to keep trying to re write history to show that it was all the workers fault.