wombat2010:
My dad Geoffrey pye was a driver for wh williams for many years , i remember going to work with him on many occassions i used to like playing with the 2 dogs that used to be at green lane not sure if anyone can remember them .
i have a photo of 1 of the vans if i can find it i will post it on here
speak soon
barbara pye
Hi Barbara
So good to hear from you.
How is Geoff?
I remember you being born.
The dogs were Pyrenean Mountain dogs, brother and Sister Henry and Ponda
When we got them at seven to eight weeks old I carried both and they sat on my knee till we got them back to Green Lane. But they grew to be very big with Henry over 8 stone.
Some guard dogs, that let you play with them!
Geoff joined us when we bought out Fred Johnson’s removal business in about 1967, along with Eddy Ramsey, John Vasey and another one or two. Of all the vans Geoff drove I best remember him with FPT780G which he had from new for many years.
Geoff did removals mainly, long distance ones and he was one hell of a worker, both a perfectionist and working like a horse. On the occasions I worked with him he never stopped. Of course he was an excellent packer, in the days when Removals were Removals, and undertake many massive jobs that today’s people would faint at the thought of. Yet to look at Geoff, being so thin you could never understand where he got his strength from.
How is your mam? My mother is 86 and sends both Geoff and your mam her well wishes.
I hope you find the photo, and if you have any problems putting it on let me know and I will try to help. They have stopped me driving now but Paul, my son runs me around a bit and perhaps if Geoff would like we could call one Saturday afternoon and I could treat Geoff to a drink.
Best wishes and hoping to hear from you soon
Carl
Hi carl my dad is doing at the min he hasn’t been well at all since last year he has copd and his breathing gets affected when he gets cold he was in hospital in january for 2 weeks and had been doing so well but then 6 weeks ago he ended up in hospital again but was only in a week he’s 73 now and my mam has just turned 69 i’m 35 and have 2 children now joshua 6 and william 3, my brother david is 28 and has 2 sons brandon 10 and sebastian 3, my mam and dad still live in the same house in birtley been their over 20yrs now not sure if you remember my grandma lily (my mam’s mam) she passed away in 1998 .
he’d love to see you’s again just let me know when you’s fancy coming and i’ll let him know x
Carl Williams:
Another photo that has turned up is this one of the 30cwt Bedford we had from 1974 to 1986. I might be biased but I don’t think the signwriting does the van justice, or look authentic for the age of the vehicle.
I know in the 1930’s we bought Bedfords from Sherwoods at Grange Road Darlington, and its probable that they had photos or some record of how their sign’s etc were in that decade, even if they had not got an actual van to copy off.
ENK306 was not one of our original vehicles, and although most of our Bedfords from that time were 2 tonners, we did infact have a 1937 Bedford 30cwt, which, I was told by both my father and Grandfather, looked very similar. The painting and lettering of both ENK and EUG were taken from memory and we tried to recreate as accurate as we could.
Personally I think Sherwoods had ruined the van
Well this one was a 1938 Model according to my little black book on registrations Regards Larry.
Carl Williams:
Another photo that has turned up is this one of the 30cwt Bedford we had from 1974 to 1986. I might be biased but I don’t think the signwriting does the van justice, or look authentic for the age of the vehicle.
I know in the 1930’s we bought Bedfords from Sherwoods at Grange Road Darlington, and its probable that they had photos or some record of how their sign’s etc were in that decade, even if they had not got an actual van to copy off.
ENK306 was not one of our original vehicles, and although most of our Bedfords from that time were 2 tonners, we did infact have a 1937 Bedford 30cwt, which, I was told by both my father and Grandfather, looked very similar. The painting and lettering of both ENK and EUG were taken from memory and we tried to recreate as accurate as we could.
Personally I think Sherwoods had ruined the van
Well this one was a 1938 Model according to my little black book on registrations Regards Larry.
Hi Larry,
Well spotted.
EUG702 was Bedford 2 tonner 1937
ENK306 was as you said 1938 30 cwt. Bedford.
I have just found this photograph for which we hired the services of George Teasdale, a well-respected photographer to take a picture of for use on advertising and promotions in 1977.
The van was newly painted and restored and the photo was taken at the old Sunderland Bridge near Croxdale.
As you will see we tried to keep it as authentic as we could for 1937. My dad would pass his driving test in 1938 and it was 2 tonners like this one that he would gain his first driving experiences, and so he had a soft heart for this particular van.
The white roof was typical of how my grandfather painted the canvas roofs of that period and was completely unlike any modern vans we operated.
About a year after this photo the van had a headboard fitted to the front top of the cab, which we had painted cream with the name in red writing shaded in blue, again typical for the year.
Carl
Met up with Geoff in Birtley last night. He’s never changed just seemed like yesterday and we talked for over two hours. Sadly I could hear Geoff’s breathing difficulties and id having difficulty seeing with cataracts.
Didn’t realise Geoff had been so young when he joined F. Johnson and Sons at Durham, but as he said he had the best teacher in Old Eddie (Eddie Ramsey). When we took over Johnson’s in 1967 he was telling us he got quite a good wage rise. At Johnson’s he got £10 per week before deductions, and when he came to us it went up to £13. Just illustrates what wages were in 1967.
Geoff had so many tales to tell and is either going to get his daughter, Barbara put them on here or pass them for me to put on. There are a lot of laughs to come.
Most importantly Geoff is hoping to get along to the Get together in October, health and lift providing.
Believe it or not me and Paul got lost trying to find his address and then when I went to go to his door, fell down and Paul had to help me up. Age is a dreadful thing.
Geoff had so much to say, it’s difficult to remember everything.
Taking about when he got FPT780G to drive from new. It was a Bedford KE chassis cab and had a high speed back axle, and went like a jet, according to Geoff.
Colin Watson was driving VPT828F a Bedford SB which was still almost new, and Colin also claimed this was the fastest of the SBs.
Apparently Colin was heading up M18 from A1M towards M! when Geoff flew past, and Colin went back and told dad it was a flogging it like mad.
Geoff also confirmed the problem that caused Bill Bailey to leave, which is the same as Colin Watson recalls. Geoff was at that time warehouse manager and had the use of a mini van we had (The old Mini) Bill Bailey had a Bedford HA van which we had painted in Coachskill livery. Geoff had to go out and his minivan was out (Someone else had been sent out with it).
Geoff was told to take the Coachskill van, and off he went. Bill for some reason thought he should have been asked before Geoff took it. I went into the warehouse to inform Bill who the van belonged to and who decided who used it, and he went off his head and told me to stuff the job and off he went.
Geoff told me of something we did that I have totally forgotten, so I suspect it must have been in the eighties.
He drove me down to Droitwich in a van (He cannot remember which) and we brought back two tractor units. Presumably we must have agreed over the phone, subject to me agreeing when I saw them to buy two tractor units and p/x a van we wanted rid of (Probably a Leyland Box van).
The one thing he said that I did remember was that we came back up the M6 and over to Barnard Castle, and the bridge was closed. We were redirected to Eggleston Bridge, and I have faint recollection driving round these twisty, often single lane roads till we arrived there. I can remember stopping when we came to the eighteenth century bridge, and getting out to discuss with the other driver, who apparently was Geoff whilst we decided if it was safe to cross. As there was nobody else there over we went. Here is a photo of the bridge. I know there was a weight limit on Barnard Castle Bridge and we were chancing it with the two tractor units, but I suspect we did something wrong crossing this one.
I would appreciate if anyone can remind me what we might have driven down or back that day?
Carl Williams:
Geoff told me of something we did that I have totally forgotten, so I suspect it must have been in the eighties.
He drove me down to Droitwich in a van (He cannot remember which) and we brought back two tractor units. Presumably we must have agreed over the phone, subject to me agreeing when I saw them to buy two tractor units and p/x a van we wanted rid of (Probably a Leyland Box van).
The one thing he said that I did remember was that we came back up the M6 and over to Barnard Castle, and the bridge was closed. We were redirected to Eggleston Bridge, and I have faint recollection driving round these twisty, often single lane roads till we arrived there. I can remember stopping when we came to the eighteenth century bridge, and getting out to discuss with the other driver, who apparently was Geoff whilst we decided if it was safe to cross. As there was nobody else there over we went. Here is a photo of the bridge. I know there was a weight limit on Barnard Castle Bridge and we were chancing it with the two tractor units, but I suspect we did something wrong crossing this one.
I would appreciate if anyone can remind me what we might have driven down or back that day?
Reading about that bridge, it says it was srengthend in 1982.
Hope that wasn’t a result of Geoff and me drivig over it!
animal:
Barbra this is an open forum so anyone can see you mobile number maybe remove it & send it in a pm would be best as there are some trolls about
Nice reading still & nice to see more on here to contribute
Hi Ange,
Thank you for yur advice to Barbara,
with her help I was able to meet up with Geoff again after all these years and it just seemed like yesterday.
Like you say it would be good if more could contribute, but it seems that so many of our ex staff are not computer literate. I understand that at the moment Barbara is looking through all the entries on this thread and telling him about it and from what he told me it as brought back so many memories to him.
I am hoping Barbara puts more on on her dad’s behalf but if somehow she tells me i can do for her.
I sent out a lot of leters to people who worked for us as the interet seems to be unable to contact so many and Colin Watson tells me that more than 30 have been in touch wth him and hopefully are coming to our ext get to gether in October.
I wish you a great and wonderful Happy Birthday on Sunday. I hope you have an amazing day and lots of fun! Enjoy this day, you deserve it.
Peter
Same here Carl, how old 95 hoops sorry caught the 9 instead of the 6, Happy Birthday, tell your Mam I am aking after her.
Eddie…Nice you and Paul went to see Geoff he is a good lad.
mickthebrush:
Hi Carl and all your contributors,although I have never had any personnal dealings with your company apart from meeting your drivers on the road,when i was doing the job in the early 70,s.
I do enjoy your great thread re your company,I love it when you describe the paint and signwork of your vehicles(its the signwriter in me…sorry)…But you did have a distictive colourscheme that worked and was remembered…which was the whole point…the history that you and your other contributors is fasanating…
Keep it up…Its a shame that the era that we talk about is no longer…I have worked,in my time for,one man bands,family outfits,multi nationals ect,but my abiding memories have been with the family outfits,where the worker is part of the family.
Best regards.
Mick.
Hi Mick
i agree with you. Wasn’t it nice when you went down the road and saw wagons and vans in all sorts of different colours, that represeted all the different operators. Now everything, in my eyes are so bland. As well when I was younger I used to watch for all the different makes of vehicles (all British as well). Now there are so few makes and in my eyes they all look the same, and most just white with bits of vinyl stuck on. So boring.
Carl
Hi Mick
I used to stand transfixed watching Peter Butler sign write many of WHW vans with ease. As a young boy I didn’t appreciate the precision and skill that must have taken years to learn and even longer to master. After seeing Peter using his chalked string to form the base lines and then using chalk to quickly write W H Williams down the side of the van as a rough guide to spacing I was mesmerised by the accuracy of his hand and eye skill when he started to paint the letters.
Whilst there is a place in today’s modern age to use cut vinyl lettering or vehicle wraps for speed you can’t beat the attention to detail which makes the traditional art of sign writing both functional and pleasing to look at, impossible to reproduce by any other method. Forty odd years later I am still in awe of those skills. Sign writers are true artists.
Peter
Hi Peter and Mick
I have to agree that sign writers are artists, and Peter Butler would certainly have been standing on the podium, in my opinion. (But of course I am biased).
Not only was his work so perfect (He was a perfectionist), but also he was so quick. One thing I always noticed he did (Same as most other sign writers) after putting on his ‘chalk marks’ with his string, he would then quickly chalk out what he was going to write and then commence painting, starting at a different place altogether, so that the chalk letters were only there to remind him what he was writing.
I must have only bee four when ‘Professor Norton’ wrote the last vehicle NUP, for us before he died, but I still have faint recollections of him performing small magic tricks to amuse me as I watched. He was again a very good writer, but much slower than Peter, but at that time very old. He used to also write the buses for Gordon Martindale at Ferryhill. Martindales were written in old English and I can always remember dad pointing out that ‘That is Norton’s work’ when we saw one whilst driving about. After Norton’s death, Martindale had to change to ordinary writing as he could find no one who could manage the Old English style correctly.
Dad said that Norton had a book of all the different type of lettering and used to ask dad to find a complicated letter and without showing him he would write it in chalk perfectly on the garage floor. When dad told Peter Butler he tried desperately to get a copy of this book, because as I said he was a perfectionist and wanted to be top of his art.
In Marsden Coachbuilders Ltd at Warrington they employed two full time writers who worked as a team. One would do one side of a van whilst the other did the other side. Phil Butler says he can always identify his dad’s work by his spacing. I looked at many vans painted by Marsden and could never see any differences, to identify which sign writer had written each side. It would have been interesting if Phil could tell the different styles, on a Marsden painted van
Carl
Hello Carl,
Thanks again for mentioning Peter, as you say he was very good at Signwriting, but i’m biased when i say this. I used to travel with him many times to different jobs when i was younger, watching him letter vans and trucks. He could put anything that the customer wished for on the side of any vehicle. (His biggest job, was for the NCB at Widdrington Opencast, on the Marmon walking dragline excavator circa 1985). At that time all I was interested in was big trucks, but in hindsight, i should have paid more attention to his Art. After his Stroke in 1983, luckily he regained the full use of his right side, therefore allowing him to continue sighwriting, only after an intense period of physiotherapy and re-education.
Another 9 years or so passed afterwards, of which he was very very busy, until the advent of vinyl graphics was starting to take off.This was when he decided that it was the right time to bow out, and retire.
I feel quite sad about the art and skill of signwriting, to be all but forgotten. In my opinion it is now a niche market, mostly 95% of the trucks and vans you will see on the roads are with vinyl. Probably it’s down to cost, but it will never ever come close to replicate signwriting. Give me a proper liveried vehicle any day!!.
Carl…talking about signwriters, I remember a Mr Scott think he was from Sunderland, he use to have his dinner at grayson road so your mam might remember him, small grey haired man.
Eddie
I wish you a great and wonderful Happy Birthday on Sunday. I hope you have an amazing day and lots of fun! Enjoy this day, you deserve it.
Peter
hi Peter,
Thank you for your kind wishes. Please also thank Barry and your mam for the card.
Paul is taing me and hopefully my mam out for lunch to celebrate. It might be difficult, but it will be the first time out for her for six months if we manage
I wish you a great and wonderful Happy Birthday on Sunday. I hope you have an amazing day and lots of fun! Enjoy this day, you deserve it.
Peter
Same here Carl, how old 95 hoops sorry caught the 9 instead of the 6, Happy Birthday, tell your Mam I am aking after her.
Eddie…Nice you and Paul went to see Geoff he is a good lad.
Thanks Eddie
I can understand you getting in a muddle about my age. You are older than me, arn’t you? Must have been thinking of your own age when you put the nine
mickthebrush:
Hi Carl and all your contributors,although I have never had any personnal dealings with your company apart from meeting your drivers on the road,when i was doing the job in the early 70,s.
I do enjoy your great thread re your company,I love it when you describe the paint and signwork of your vehicles(its the signwriter in me…sorry)…But you did have a distictive colourscheme that worked and was remembered…which was the whole point…the history that you and your other contributors is fasanating…
Keep it up…Its a shame that the era that we talk about is no longer…I have worked,in my time for,one man bands,family outfits,multi nationals ect,but my abiding memories have been with the family outfits,where the worker is part of the family.
Best regards.
Mick.
Hi Mick
i agree with you. Wasn’t it nice when you went down the road and saw wagons and vans in all sorts of different colours, that represeted all the different operators. Now everything, in my eyes are so bland. As well when I was younger I used to watch for all the different makes of vehicles (all British as well). Now there are so few makes and in my eyes they all look the same, and most just white with bits of vinyl stuck on. So boring.
Carl
Hi Mick
I used to stand transfixed watching Peter Butler sign write many of WHW vans with ease. As a young boy I didn’t appreciate the precision and skill that must have taken years to learn and even longer to master. After seeing Peter using his chalked string to form the base lines and then using chalk to quickly write W H Williams down the side of the van as a rough guide to spacing I was mesmerised by the accuracy of his hand and eye skill when he started to paint the letters.
Whilst there is a place in today’s modern age to use cut vinyl lettering or vehicle wraps for speed you can’t beat the attention to detail which makes the traditional art of sign writing both functional and pleasing to look at, impossible to reproduce by any other method. Forty odd years later I am still in awe of those skills. Sign writers are true artists.
Peter
Hi Peter and Mick
I have to agree that sign writers are artists, and Peter Butler would certainly have been standing on the podium, in my opinion. (But of course I am biased).
Not only was his work so perfect (He was a perfectionist), but also he was so quick. One thing I always noticed he did (Same as most other sign writers) after putting on his ‘chalk marks’ with his string, he would then quickly chalk out what he was going to write and then commence painting, starting at a different place altogether, so that the chalk letters were only there to remind him what he was writing.
I must have only bee four when ‘Professor Norton’ wrote the last vehicle NUP, for us before he died, but I still have faint recollections of him performing small magic tricks to amuse me as I watched. He was again a very good writer, but much slower than Peter, but at that time very old. He used to also write the buses for Gordon Martindale at Ferryhill. Martindales were written in old English and I can always remember dad pointing out that ‘That is Norton’s work’ when we saw one whilst driving about. After Norton’s death, Martindale had to change to ordinary writing as he could find no one who could manage the Old English style correctly.
Dad said that Norton had a book of all the different type of lettering and used to ask dad to find a complicated letter and without showing him he would write it in chalk perfectly on the garage floor. When dad told Peter Butler he tried desperately to get a copy of this book, because as I said he was a perfectionist and wanted to be top of his art.
In Marsden Coachbuilders Ltd at Warrington they employed two full time writers who worked as a team. One would do one side of a van whilst the other did the other side. Phil Butler says he can always identify his dad’s work by his spacing. I looked at many vans painted by Marsden and could never see any differences, to identify which sign writer had written each side. It would have been interesting if Phil could tell the different styles, on a Marsden painted van
Carl
Hello Carl,
Thanks again for mentioning Peter, as you say he was very good at Signwriting, but i’m biased when i say this. I used to travel with him many times to different jobs when i was younger, watching him letter vans and trucks. He could put anything that the customer wished for on the side of any vehicle. (His biggest job, was for the NCB at Widdrington Opencast, on the Marmon walking dragline excavator circa 1985). At that time all I was interested in was big trucks, but in hindsight, i should have paid more attention to his Art. After his Stroke in 1983, luckily he regained the full use of his right side, therefore allowing him to continue sighwriting, only after an intense period of physiotherapy and re-education.
Another 9 years or so passed afterwards, of which he was very very busy, until the advent of vinyl graphics was starting to take off.This was when he decided that it was the right time to bow out, and retire.
I feel quite sad about the art and skill of signwriting, to be all but forgotten. In my opinion it is now a niche market, mostly 95% of the trucks and vans you will see on the roads are with vinyl. Probably it’s down to cost, but it will never ever come close to replicate signwriting. Give me a proper liveried vehicle any day!!.
Best regards Carl,
Phil.
Hi Phil
So good to hear from you again. My memory before the eighties is usually good, but after the eighties is very bad.
I do know that Peter started lettering for us in the sixties and it must have been in the eighties we started using Vinyl and after about a year we got Peter back, and I thought we had Peter back till the end but I might be wrong.
I know dad coming to see me and saying he thought the brown cabbed tractor unit’s looked drab and wanted future ones cream. I then persuaded him to paint the vans predominantly cream with only where the name was a brown rectangle. I remember coming up with a very rough sketch of what I had in mind for the new livery design and it certainly was Peter who set it out.
In late 83 we got six Mercedes 16 ton GVW rigids with curtain sider bodies with tailifts. These were painted in blue and white Thorn livery with our name on the cab and headboard, and in 1985 we got a Mercedes rigid van in our livery and I was sure Peter painted these. Yet I can never remember him coming after his stroke. I heard over the grapevine of his stroke and how badly Bob Harold had treated him.
I remember Bob and I went for a night out in Spennymoor Top Hat club once and I thought I knew him quite well, and I was so surprised that he treated Peter, who had done so much for him, so badly.
One thing certain was that our two vintage Bedfords were painted by Bob In his workshop and lettered by Peter.
Another occasion I remembered when Thorn had us paint some 40 ft. trailers for them in what was their new white livery. They had had designers come out with drawings of how they wanted the lettering done, complete to scale. The problem was that the drawings were on rigids about 20 foot, and in their stupidity they could not understand although the 40 ft. trailers were twice the length doubling the size of the lettering was not possible as they were not twice the height. Peter interpreted as Peter would do and they were unhappy as the design didn’t look as good on 40ft. When eventually the designers saw they had to agree that Peter had done the best possible.
With someone like Peter you always got the best interpretation of the livery that was possible for any particular vehicle. With Vinyl letters you get the letters as you order and then try to make them fit as best you can, and never will you get a vehicle looking its best.
Talking to Geoff Pye he has a 6mm film which was taken about 1973 at our Green Lane site showing a new van freshly painted revering out of the paint-shop.
It will be interesting to see what else it shows. Geoff is finding it out. Does anyone know anywhere I can pay to get it converted onto disc?
Gordon Ball has just been on the phone telling me he had just met John Wood, who is working at hetton Car Sprayers. I am afraid i cannot remember him, but apparently he worked in the body shop, orriginally wit Bill Bailey, and apparently carried on in there until we finnished.Recenty I had said I was wondering who did bodybuilding after Bill Bailey left.
John said to Gordon, that working in the Body Shop, with Alan Henderson as his immediate boss he didn’t get the chance to know drivers and other workers names, but he knew everybody’s face and intends to come to the October Gettogether.
edworth:
Carl…talking about signwriters, I remember a Mr Scott think he was from Sunderland, he use to have his dinner at grayson road so your mam might remember him, small grey haired man.
Eddie
Hi Eddie
I can’t remember, but wonder if it was before Peter Butler started writing the vans.
Temp Newton certainly wrote 4479PT (twice) 1372UP and 367MPT and then there were several before Peter Butler.
certainly NUP and HTH were repainted and the Morris 2 Tonner DPT100B.
It probably was durng that time and I would have missed as I was still at school
Keep well, hope you make October at ferryhill and can see you then
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