Bewick:
Not much of interest on the TN site to-night so before I “call it a day” heres a shot of the Two Ugly sisters I bought in early '76 mainly because of the “deal” I was offered from our local Volvo Dealer Taits,initially it was for one unit,but the deal was so good I said OK well I’ll have two,cough and splutter,“We’ll have to ask Volvo if we can do it”,well if you can’t I says,forget it One hour later back came the answer from Volvo,certainly,when do you require delivery Cheers Bewick
Not much interest??!! How much did the F88s cost, and what was the price of comparable machines?
There were no comparable machines!
You may be right. The 290 was, according to many reports, not the most reliable of vehicles. In the late 1970s, was anything else worse, on that score?
My F88 290 was the same age as Bewick’s two. It was about five years old when I took it on. After a set of new injectors it went like a bomb and was totally reliable, if you didn’t mind the miserable 6.1 mpg fuel consumption. It was necessary to make bodywork repairs quite frequently due to the Rust Worm’s relentless progress- nothing that a sheet of glassfibre matting & a tin (large size) of bodyfiller wouldn’t cure! She was a revelation after the 150-powered Atki & I was pleasantly surprised at the way she would leave 111 Scanias standing on a hill. On early morning runs with no traffic it was possible to put up journey times comparable with the average family car of the time.
Bewick:
Not much of interest on the TN site to-night so before I “call it a day” heres a shot of the Two Ugly sisters I bought in early '76 mainly because of the “deal” I was offered from our local Volvo Dealer Taits,initially it was for one unit,but the deal was so good I said OK well I’ll have two,cough and splutter,“We’ll have to ask Volvo if we can do it”,well if you can’t I says,forget it One hour later back came the answer from Volvo,certainly,when do you require delivery Cheers Bewick
Not much interest??!! How much did the F88s cost, and what was the price of comparable machines?
I’ve been having a think and from what I can recall the first two F88’s were circa £11+K,.£11250 comes to mind but it may have been a little bit more,in August '76 I bought another two for the K.Fell fleet and obviously the price was somewhat higher than the first two,again from memory I think they were circa £13+ then the last F88 I bought was delivered in Jan '77 and as a result of the inflation the country was suffering at the time this tractor was £15K.I bought a new Sed/Atk 8LXB Sleeper along with the F88 and the prices were more-or-less identical at £15K each.Oh! and I bought the first two Scania 111 day cabs a month or so afterwards and again from memory the 5speed one was £13,500 and the 10speed was £500 dearer at £14000.Cheers Dennis.
Bewick:
I’ve been having a think and from what I can recall the first two F88’s were circa £11+K,.£11250 comes to mind but it may have been a little bit more,in August '76 I bought another two for the K.Fell fleet and obviously the price was somewhat higher than the first two,again from memory I think they were circa £13+ then the last F88 I bought was delivered in Jan '77 and as a result of the inflation the country was suffering at the time this tractor was £15K.I bought a new Sed/Atk 8LXB Sleeper along with the F88 and the prices were more-or-less identical at £15K each.Oh! and I bought the first two Scania 111 day cabs a month or so afterwards and again from memory the 5speed one was £13,500 and the 10speed was £500 dearer at £14000.Cheers Dennis.
Thanks for an informative post. Comparing this with the prices quoted in the Little and Large thread, these seem more aligned with the apparent build cost of the machines: the sleeper F88s were a little bit more than the day cab 111s. The two grand difference you quoted (or £5k in Monsieur Saviem’s example) between the almost-identical P113 and R113 is not evident in these 1970s prices. What is similar is the lavish specification of the British motor, relative to its Continental competitor- the SedAk had a 14 litre 8 cylinder engine, against Volvo’s 10 litre 6, yet the operator paid the same money. Given that the 8LXB was almost certainly more economical and durable than the Volvo engine (especially the 290), the British motor seemed to represent excellent value for money. Yet, reading the many posts in this wonderful forum, most drivers and operators would say the F88 was the superior vehicle. What would your opinion be, on that subject?
Good point Mr Anorak, pound for pound the Sed Ak has to be the better lorry, cheaper to run and maintain and less downtime than a 290, but history tells the sad truth, the Volvo was by far the more popular vehicle.
From a jockey’s point of view, it would be the F88.5 for me every time
There was no doubt about it,the 8LXB engines were much more economical than the F88 probably by a margin of at least 1mpg and maybe nearer to 2mpg but there was a world of difference in the actual driving experience,the F88 was smooth and quiet whereas the Sed/Atk while acceptable it couldn’t really be called an equal to the F88 The main reason I veered away from British built motors,was because,IMHO,a vertically intergrated motor was superior to an “assembled” one where the main components are sourced from a number of suppliers,which varied enormously over the years.Engines from ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ,Perkins and Leyland,gearboxes from DB,Fuller and Spicer and drive axles from Kirkstall Forge,Eaton,Rockwell and Seddon Group etc.There were also some “in house” offerings from Leyland and Foden.However,IMHO the Foden “in house” manufactured components were positively “stone age” in comparison and they only continued to exist as long as they did because of the “dogged” belief of the Old guard transport industry management that still held sway in the 60’s and into the '70’s.I realise I may get some flak from the Ponteland area So I will now retire to my bomb proof shelter eh!Cheers Dennis.
Bewick:
There was no doubt about it,the 8LXB engines were much more economical than the F88 probably by a margin of at least 1mpg and maybe nearer to 2mpg but there was a world of difference in the actual driving experience,the F88 was smooth and quiet whereas the Sed/Atk while acceptable it couldn’t really be called an equal to the F88 The main reason I veered away from British built motors,was because,IMHO,a vertically intergrated motor where all the main components are built in house and correctly matched was superior to an “assembled” one where the main components are sourced from a number of suppliers,which varied enormously over the years.Engines from ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ,Perkins and Leyland,gearboxes from DB,Fuller and Spicer and drive axles from Kirkstall Forge,Eaton,Rockwell and Seddon Group etc.There were also some “in house” offerings from Leyland and Foden.However,IMHO the Foden “in house” manufactured components were positively “stone age” in comparison and they only continued to exist as long as they did because of the “dogged” belief of the Old guard transport industry management that still held sway in the 60’s and into the '70’s.I realise I may get some flak from the Ponteland area So I will now retire to my bomb proof shelter eh!Cheers Dennis.
Trev_H:
It’s debatable which rotted the quickest the 88 or the Sed Atki. both suffered from bad cases of tin worm.
I propose the following “rot league” for late '70s “premium” vehicles:
Seddon Atkinson
Fiat
Spanish Dodge and Pegaso.
Volvo
Scania
Magirus
Motor Panels (Seddon, Crusader, Foden S40 etc.)
Leyland
Bedford TM
Berliet (and Transcon)
Saviem
MAN
Mercedes
Foden
ERF.
Trev_H:
It’s debatable which rotted the quickest the 88 or the Sed Atki. both suffered from bad cases of tin worm.
I propose the following “rot league” for late '70s “premium” vehicles:
Seddon Atkinson
Fiat
Spanish Dodge and Pegaso.
Volvo
Scania
Magirus
Motor Panels (Seddon, Crusader, Foden S40 etc.)
Leyland
Bedford TM
Berliet (and Transcon)
Saviem
MAN
Mercedes
Foden
ERF.
You’ve ommited Atkinson which will,of course,come below ERF Cheers Dennis.
What about the sheet steel back panel and the ash frame? Did they not rot away?
No they didn’t,well not as quick as the F88 and Sed/Atk cabs,but of course,the Atkinson was the finest British built motor of all time,IMHO.So whats a tiny bit of wear and tear on the edges of the back cab panel Cheers Dennis.
What about the sheet steel back panel and the ash frame? Did they not rot away?
No they didn’t,well not as quick as the F88 and Sed/Atk cabs,but of course,the Atkinson was the finest British built motor of all time,IMHO.So whats a tiny bit of wear and tear on the edges of the back cab panel Cheers Dennis.
Fair do’s. I guess an 8LXB-engined Atki with a Swedish cab, engineered by the Swedes and built in Sweden would be the ultimate, then?
What about the sheet steel back panel and the ash frame? Did they not rot away?
No they didn’t,well not as quick as the F88 and Sed/Atk cabs,but of course,the Atkinson was the finest British built motor of all time,IMHO.So whats a tiny bit of wear and tear on the edges of the back cab panel Cheers Dennis.
Fair do’s. I guess an 8LXB-engined Atki with a Swedish cab, engineered by the Swedes and built in Sweden would be the ultimate, then?
It’s just the way things “progress” Anorak,I suppose you could say that the Atkinson marque really disappeared at the same time that sheeting and roping went down the pan and up popped curtainsiders and imported motors,two different eras but IMHO more skill was required for the older era than to-days requirements.Just my opinion no doubt a few will disagree though Cheers Dennis.
Hey, in those days it wasn’t the fuel bill which made the difference,but power and a bit comfort.I think the first sleepercab standard was the F88.
Only from the '70’s on was an F88 available without a sleeper cab. A sleepercab for the Brittish wasn’t that a luxory abroad.
Of course Volvo made a real disaster by releasing the 290 and stupidity built it again in the F10,which cost them a lot of customers here (Which they had won during the poor competitors in the mid '60’s) in spite of the very good guarantee back up. Volvo must have come earlier with the 89 and surely for the English market too.
What about the sheet steel back panel and the ash frame? Did they not rot away?
No they didn’t,well not as quick as the F88 and Sed/Atk cabs,but of course,the Atkinson was the finest British built motor of all time,IMHO.So whats a tiny bit of wear and tear on the edges of the back cab panel Cheers Dennis.
Fair do’s. I guess an 8LXB-engined Atki with a Swedish cab, engineered by the Swedes and built in Sweden would be the ultimate, then?
You remind me of somebody with that statement Would it be in 6x4 configuration by any chance
[zb]
anorak:
…Fair do’s. I guess an 8LXB-engined Atki with a Swedish cab, engineered by the Swedes and built in Sweden would be the ultimate, then?
You remind me of somebody with that statement Would it be in 6x4 configuration by any chance
Hahaha. Yes, but I would chuck that boat anchor out and replace it with something from a quarry dumper, coupled to a 24 speed constant-mesh gearbox, in which every gear will be used in sequence, with the clutch. Engine revs would never exceed 1350, so I would get 10mpg at a cruising speed of 80mph. Blimey, it is even more painful to write this dreck than it is to read it!
I went on an American forum the other day, and 6x2s are gaining in popularity. From what I could gather from some journalist’s roadtest, they use some half-baked electric device to dump the air in the tag, if traction is required. The article said that it was superior to a 6x4 without a cross-lock, but the writer had probably had his belly filled by the salesman.
On another US forum, there was some discussion of the 3-series Scanias that were sold in the States in the 1980s and '90s. They marked it down for unladen weight, but it got the thumbs up for comfort and the synchromesh gearbox .
Back to F88s, and Mr. Bewick’s comparison of 290s with SA 401s. Despite the 88 having a much smaller engine, 1-2mpg less, a basic design 11years older and the well-documented unreliability, it was still regarded as the superior machine, at the same purchase price, or so it seems. Remarkable.
Machine vs machine the Sudden Accident is the superior product, but as a package the Volvo wins, there’s more to transport than who has the best (most efficient) lorry, which is why Volvo went from strength to strength and most of it off the back of the lorry that earned them their laurels, the ‘inferior’ 290 F88.
I know the rear end set up you refer to, it’s a Meritor and it uses the new fangled ECAS (which has been in Europe since the mid 80s ) to take weight off the tag, it also has an electronic diff lock. It will be slightly better than a cross lock only set up for on highway applications, but no match for full lockers in extreme conditions.
newmercman:
Machine vs machine the Sudden Accident is the superior product, but as a package the Volvo wins, there’s more to transport than who has the best (most efficient) lorry, which is why Volvo went from strength to strength and most of it off the back of the lorry that earned them their laurels, the ‘inferior’ 290 F88.
I know the rear end set up you refer to, it’s a Meritor and it uses the new fangled ECAS (which has been in Europe since the mid 80s ) to take weight off the tag, it also has an electronic diff lock. It will be slightly better than a cross lock only set up for on highway applications, but no match for full lockers in extreme conditions.
I wasn’t knocking Volvo or their customers-far from it. Rather, it is remarkable that Volvo could engineer such a respected product, when S/A made a dog’s dinner out of superior ingredients- the chassis of the “best British vehicle of all time”, an engine capable of far superior economy and durability and a brand-new cab design (in 1975, when both vehicles were first sold). The similar retail price of both machines is the other side of the coin- Volvo’s design must have cost considerably less to make, with its simpler engine and already-written-off cab tooling costs. The 88 would have been making much higher profits for Volvo. It all points to Volvo having more brains in the office (and being able to pay for them), hence my Leatherheadesque comment.
I concur with your comments on the US 6x2s- if the fifth wheel is behind the leading bogie (drive) axle, dumping the air on the tag will put more weight over the driven wheels than there would be on a 6x4’s bogie. I wonder what effect it will have on the typically-lightweight American chassis? IIRC, those Swedish 6x2s had a strengthened chassis: you had to have the double chassis on the Scania 6x2s, I think. Dunno about the Volvo.
One hour later back came the answer from Volvo,certainly,when do you require delivery
Cheers Bewick
Would it be in 6x4 configuration by any chance 
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