coiler:
Not sure what you mean, build in the USA or for the USA? Thought all the ones over here were built in Sweden or Belgium? My 2015 D13 500, other than a couple of adblue pumps hasn’t had any problems.
I’m not 100% sure about the V4, but I know from 2011 Volvo don’t recommend a top end set every 2 years for the D13 like the older D12 needed.
60 hours to strip the timing gear? Could have rebuilt the engine in that time.
Built in the USA for the North American market.
That’s one of them, there’s quite a lot of work involved to get to the back of the engine, it’s much easier to work on the back of the engine on a cabover.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Sorry, didn’t realise you were based in the US
Canada thankfully, I’m a British import though so you don’t have to speak slowly so I can understand you [emoji3]
newmercman:
They’ve changed the ISX quite a lot from its original design, I’m not too sure what they’ve done as I’m not interested in an ISX whatsoever, far too complicated and it’s 50/50 whether you’ll get a good one or a bad one, there doesn’t appear to be any middle ground. They’re prone to exploding fuel pumps and they can wipe cam lobes off for fun, the EGR systems often fail, mainly the EGR cooler which results in new pistons and liners and the VG turbos are made of cheese and regularly fail. Quite the contrast to the N14, which is seemingly unbreakable. It’s the engine I’d choose if I ever built a glider.
On the subject of rear timing gear, that is the foundation for the next generation engines, turbocompounding will be resurrected and there will be some Carlos Fandango stuff putting the recovered energy directly into the crankshaft at the same time as the power stroke to reduce the losses of the hydraulic drives used previously.
You can only imagine how much aggro it will be to work on those when they inevitably go wrong.
I’d guess it would be the sudden realisation by the manufacturers that they can’t sustain that type of warranty cover expense in the long term,which would be a game changer in that regard.On that note the obvious question even as it stands is the choice between anyone in the used truck market going for the modern technology when it’s out of warranty or that N14 powered glider for example. IE I think it will be the harsh reality of warranty costs and out of warranty residual values which will eventually bring everyone to their senses and stop this mad rush for pointless technology.If not it will be economic suicide for all concerned.
Warranty is a money maker for the manufacturers, don’t be under any illusions there, they may get one up the ribs every now and then, but overall it’s a profit center for them.
As for gliders, they’re a loophole and there’s talk that they will have to meet emission regs too, so that will be the end of them when that happens.
newmercman:
Warranty is a money maker for the manufacturers, don’t be under any illusions there, they may get one up the ribs every now and then, but overall it’s a profit center for them.
As for gliders, they’re a loophole and there’s talk that they will have to meet emission regs too, so that will be the end of them when that happens.
I could understand the logic of that up to a point.IE they see it as a type of insurance plan in which the ones which stay together throughout the term of the warranty period are predicted to more than compensate for the relative lemons ?.
The obvious question then being would you as a buyer want to run such a design at any point without a watertight warranty.If not how would you account for the difference between your risk calculation in that regard v the manufacturers’ let alone a future buyer when it’s out of warranty ?.Then at what point does the realisation happen that if it’s the customer’s assessment which is correct then that plan is obviously unsustainable in the longer term.With it being the customer’s risk assessment which is actually the correct one and which therefore can only mean that the manufacturers’ is an unsustainable under estimation of the risks.While in that case the reference,to the no brainer choice between D13 or ISX etc v N14,says it all in that regard.
In which case the manufacturers’ development budgets should be getting spent on doing whatever it takes in making something like the N14 compliant.Rather than the money pits of the current,let alone future,generations of truck engines.Even if it means moving away from diesel which will have to happen at some point anyway.Bearing in mind that the financial interests of the manufacturers and customers,whether new in warranty,or used outside of warranty,are all the same in this case in that unsustainable warranty costs and/or collapsed residual values help no one.
The problems that plague the newer engines would be exactly the same on the N14 or Series 60, it’s the reduction in emissions that causes most of the issues, higher fuel pressures have an impact on injectors and the top end components, EGR is about the single worst thing you could do to a diesel engine, introducing hot dirty air into a process that thrives on clean dense air is just ridiculous and the increased soot it produces is extremely hard on oil. A slight malfunction in the EGR system and you turn your oil into an acidic grinding paste.
Then there’s the aftertreatment system, increased back pressure wasting energy and adding to the soot levels in the oil, a ton of sensors and Carlos Fandango stuff that go wrong if the wind blows in the wrong direction.
And yet these engines are more efficient than an N14 or Series 60, on top of that they can blow cleaner air out of the exhaust than they ■■■■ in through the air intake in areas of high pollution, so the idea behind them has merit.
Unfortunately there are reliability issues, but the transport industry is the only loser, the manufacturers are happy, even with increased warranty claims they’re making more money, the cost of the technology and the increased warranty claims are all worked into the price and trucks are now being replaced a lot sooner than they used to be, they’re far more complicated so they need to go to a dealer for anything other than oil and filters, so that’s another revenue source for them.
newmercman:
The problems that plague the newer engines would be exactly the same on the N14 or Series 60, it’s the reduction in emissions that causes most of the issues, higher fuel pressures have an impact on injectors and the top end components, EGR is about the single worst thing you could do to a diesel engine, introducing hot dirty air into a process that thrives on clean dense air is just ridiculous and the increased soot it produces is extremely hard on oil. A slight malfunction in the EGR system and you turn your oil into an acidic grinding paste.
Then there’s the aftertreatment system, increased back pressure wasting energy and adding to the soot levels in the oil, a ton of sensors and Carlos Fandango stuff that go wrong if the wind blows in the wrong direction.
And yet these engines are more efficient than an N14 or Series 60, on top of that they can blow cleaner air out of the exhaust than they ■■■■ in through the air intake in areas of high pollution, so the idea behind them has merit.
Unfortunately there are reliability issues, but the transport industry is the only loser, the manufacturers are happy, even with increased warranty claims they’re making more money, the cost of the technology and the increased warranty claims are all worked into the price and trucks are now being replaced a lot sooner than they used to be, they’re far more complicated so they need to go to a dealer for anything other than oil and filters, so that’s another revenue source for them.
To be fair that 60 hour 7 grand ? labour bill to fix a timing cover leak ? had more to do with the D13’s evil rear drive OHC/CIH design.Which as I said leaves the question would the N14’s pushrod layout be mutually exclusive with doing everything that the D13’s,or for that matter any other OHC/CIH type,layout can do given a bit more development ?.
newmercman:
The problems that plague the newer engines would be exactly the same on the N14 or Series 60, it’s the reduction in emissions that causes most of the issues, higher fuel pressures have an impact on injectors and the top end components, EGR is about the single worst thing you could do to a diesel engine, introducing hot dirty air into a process that thrives on clean dense air is just ridiculous and the increased soot it produces is extremely hard on oil. A slight malfunction in the EGR system and you turn your oil into an acidic grinding paste.
Then there’s the aftertreatment system, increased back pressure wasting energy and adding to the soot levels in the oil, a ton of sensors and Carlos Fandango stuff that go wrong if the wind blows in the wrong direction.
And yet these engines are more efficient than an N14 or Series 60, on top of that they can blow cleaner air out of the exhaust than they ■■■■ in through the air intake in areas of high pollution, so the idea behind them has merit.
Unfortunately there are reliability issues, but the transport industry is the only loser, the manufacturers are happy, even with increased warranty claims they’re making more money, the cost of the technology and the increased warranty claims are all worked into the price and trucks are now being replaced a lot sooner than they used to be, they’re far more complicated so they need to go to a dealer for anything other than oil and filters, so that’s another revenue source for them.
To be fair that 60 hour 7 grand ? labour bill to fix a timing cover leak ? had more to do with the D13’s evil rear drive OHC/CIH design.Which as I said leaves the question would the N14’s pushrod layout be mutually exclusive with doing everything that the D13’s,or for that matter any other OHC/CIH type,layout can do given a bit more development ?.
I agree with everything you have said there Mark, looking back through my breakdown records over the last 2 years the only “non emmisions” fault’s have been a centre bearing collapsed and a reduction hub giving up on a DAF, everything else has been sensor’s and injector problems but the main one on a 14 plate Scania has been Ad-blue chrystalising and blocking system,hopefully cured now, but the sister truck with 30K more miles on it has been trouble free…tempting fate there I think!!
As for timing gears on rear of engines Leyland done it with the headless wonder and we all know how that ended!! Cheer’s Pete
coiler:
Not sure what you mean, build in the USA or for the USA? Thought all the ones over here were built in Sweden or Belgium? My 2015 D13 500, other than a couple of adblue pumps hasn’t had any problems.
I’m not 100% sure about the V4, but I know from 2011 Volvo don’t recommend a top end set every 2 years for the D13 like the older D12 needed.
60 hours to strip the timing gear? Could have rebuilt the engine in that time.
i always lift the lid of them before the 2yr warranty is out after finding a rear lobe badly worn on an FH12 yrs ago, especially now as a day over 2yrs and u will struggle to get any claim met.Volvo recently cut the oil drain period to 60000km on the euro6 .
I agree with the warranty, there seems to be no leeway any more, which vehicles have they cut the drain period on as mine are still on 120k?
60k for the D11 dont know about the D13 but honestly if your gonna keep a truck after the warranty expires and they have it on 120k drain interval get regular oil samples done they cost at most £15 i sent 1 away on a new euro6 d11 450 at 38k total (tipper work) and it came back knackered abnormal copper ,aluminium ,silicon ,iron etc ect . emailed it to dealer ,straight in and changed oil and filters .
sample kits from Alcontrol 01429 574750.
Strictly speaking ALL oil drains should be done according to an oil sample, using a time or mileage based interval is just pure guesswork as to the condition of the oil. You could either be pouring good oil away or running oil that’s full of contaminants risking premature wear.
Oil analysis can be used as a diagnostic tool as well, engines can suffer from cross contamination of fluids in a number of areas, EGR coolers, injectors, compressors being the main ones and an oil sample will spot this early enough to prevent serious damage to the engine internals. Coolant or diesel in your oil will do a lot of damage if not corrected asap. High soot levels can indicate a dripping injector or a problem on the intake or exhaust system, the list goes on…
I’ve had them done and thankfully they come back fine, to the point that I’m not worried about going over the recommended intervals, although if I do I will get an oil sample to prove that the oil was still in good shape and could not be a contributing factor in any future warranty claims I may have to make. CYA!
Pete, the headless wonder was a good idea in theory, a lot like all this crap the engineers keep coming out with now, it’s a good idea on paper, but in the real world it’s nothing but a pain in the arse, crystallising Adblue for crying out loud, how on earth are you supposed to fix that without writing a cheque to the stealership?
newmercman:
Strictly speaking ALL oil drains should be done according to an oil sample, using a time or mileage based interval is just pure guesswork as to the condition of the oil. You could either be pouring good oil away or running oil that’s full of contaminants risking premature wear.
Oil analysis can be used as a diagnostic tool as well, engines can suffer from cross contamination of fluids in a number of areas, EGR coolers, injectors, compressors being the main ones and an oil sample will spot this early enough to prevent serious damage to the engine internals. Coolant or diesel in your oil will do a lot of damage if not corrected asap. High soot levels can indicate a dripping injector or a problem on the intake or exhaust system, the list goes on…
I’ve had them done and thankfully they come back fine, to the point that I’m not worried about going over the recommended intervals, although if I do I will get an oil sample to prove that the oil was still in good shape and could not be a contributing factor in any future warranty claims I may have to make. CYA!
Pete, the headless wonder was a good idea in theory, a lot like all this crap the engineers keep coming out with now, it’s a good idea on paper, but in the real world it’s nothing but a pain in the arse, crystallising Adblue for crying out loud, how on earth are you supposed to fix that without writing a cheque to the stealership?
Hi Mark,
Luckily it’s a leased motor or it would have had a box of tricks fitted!!
I would love to do that to mine, it’s possible but I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about the delete kits, a bloke I know had one on a D13 and was getting 11mpg after the delete, to give an idea, my other truck does similar work and has a rolling year to date average of 9.2mpg, that’s quite a jump. However the truck suddenly started going into derate for no reason and it got to the point where it was doing it every 50 miles, requiring the master switch to be turned off to reset it all, so he took it back to have it undeleted and they had butchered the whole system, it cost him over $20k to get it back in shape and he obviously lost the $5k cost of the delete too, you need to do a lot of miles at 11mpg to make money out of that kind of deal.
They’re not all like that, but you have to be very careful who you choose to do the work and recommendations are hard to come by as understandably, the people getting them done are not shouting from the rooftops about it as you can be placed out of service on the side of the road if the DOT find that you have tampered with the emission system, then it’s a trip to the dealer on a hook to get it back into legal shape and then a fine on top, so it’s a big risk, but I do like the idea of 11mpg… a lot!
pete smith:
As for timing gears on rear of engines Leyland done it with the headless wonder and we all know how that ended!! Cheer’s Pete
To be fair the ISX also seems to be a money pit depending on luck.Realistically any type of OHC/CIH motor has the potential to be a dog at least in terms of service/rebuild labour costs.If not durability with absolute flawless oil feed design up to the valve train required for just one example.
In nmm’s case it seeming to be the predictable results of a gasket leak in the rear inner timing cover design which caused a load of aggro and expense.Which as I said leaves the question of running such designs out of warranty.
As for the headless wonder.That example again raised the question how can such a liability be a good thing from the manufacturer’s point of view in terms of warranty claims.Or the customer’s at resale time when it’s out of warranty.
newmercman:
I would love to do that to mine, it’s possible but I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about the delete kits, a bloke I know had one on a D13 and was getting 11mpg after the delete, to give an idea, my other truck does similar work and has a rolling year to date average of 9.2mpg, that’s quite a jump. However the truck suddenly started going into derate for no reason and it got to the point where it was doing it every 50 miles, requiring the master switch to be turned off to reset it all, so he took it back to have it undeleted and they had butchered the whole system
There’s also some horror stories in the car world at least of manufacturers building circuitry booby traps into ECU’s by attaching part of the circuitry to the removable panel which wrecks the ECU when it’s removed if anyone unknowingly tries to get access to it to re programme it.Then more £££££$$$$$ needed to be spent as a captive customer to replace it with a new manufacturer supplied ECU which is dedicated to the engine number.
I am sorry but I cannot help with the original question since the last OHC Volvo engine I ever did any work upon was an L reg FL 10 and that was limited mostly to servicing.
Watching Carryfast’s Mack engine assembly video made me give thanks that the engine work I do these days is mainly limited to the much older generation of technology. To paraphrase once again from the late Geoffrey Hilditch: " Having built up the main chunks of the engine one seemed to spend an age hanging bits on a Gardner in comparison to a Leyland." I don’t know what he would have made of the Mack/Renault/Volvo engine in the video! Oh for the simplicity of an AEC or a big ■■■■■■■■
Following on in You Tube from CF’s Mack engine assembly was this one which has had me doing a treble take, there is something very strange going on here I think, unless I am having a brain ■■■■.
cav551:
I am sorry but I cannot help with the original question since the last OHC Volvo engine I ever did any work upon was an L reg FL 10 and that was limited mostly to servicing.
Watching Carryfast’s Mack engine assembly video made me give thanks that the engine work I do these days is mainly limited to the much older generation of technology. To paraphrase once again from the late Geoffrey Hilditch: " Having built up the main chunks of the engine one seemed to spend an age hanging bits on a Gardner in comparison to a Leyland." I don’t know what he would have made of the Mack/Renault/Volvo engine in the video! Oh for the simplicity of an AEC or a big ■■■■■■■■
Following on in You Tube from CF’s Mack engine assembly was this one which has had me doing a treble take, there is something very strange going on here I think, unless I am having a brain ■■■■.
If we’re going to put the cam drive at the wrong end of the motor and give it two timing covers when it should only have one we might as well give it left hand thread mains caps bolts.On that note check out the comments.
Meanwhile if it absolutely has to be OHC/CIH that’s the way to do it.
coiler:
60 hours to strip the timing gear? Could have rebuilt the engine in that time.
That would depend on numerous possible issues.
Over head cam/CIH motors can be the devil’s work in that regard.Especially if they’re driven at the rear of the engine not the front.In which case even just what sounds like a timing cover gasket job could be nightmare.
Bearing in mind that I’m guessing that the problem might be the inner timing cover plate seal shown here at 0.45-0.51 on the similar Mack MP7 design.
So quite possible that it could take as long to sort out the timing side of a D13 as it would to re build an N14 for example.Bearing in mind that the main important tools needed to even remove the camshaft,let alone just fix the timing cover gasket,of an N14,are a hammer and a screwdriver.
As opposed to a timing cover leak on an N14 for example.I’m guessing you do know which end of the motor is which in that regard and the differences between the pushrod N14 v OHC/CIH D13 based on the same design as the Mack.
As opposed to a timing cover leak on an N14 for example.I’m guessing you do know which end of the motor is which in that regard and the differences between the pushrod N14 v OHC/CIH D13 based on the same design as the Mack.
What the hell is CIH? you mean over head cam?
With the exception of ■■■■■■■ all modern engines timing gear is driven from the back of the crankshaft.
As opposed to a timing cover leak on an N14 for example.I’m guessing you do know which end of the motor is which in that regard and the differences between the pushrod N14 v OHC/CIH D13 based on the same design as the Mack.
What the hell is CIH? you mean over head cam?
With the exception of ■■■■■■■ all modern engines timing gear is driven from the back of the crankshaft.
CIH means Cam In Head IE it sits at the ‘side’ of the valves and uses rockers to actuate them.OHC means the cam acts directly on the valves etc from above hence ‘overhead cam’.
While I was referring specifically to the advantages of the pushrod layout as opposed to ‘CIH’/OHC the designs in question obviously fitting the description of CIH better.While as I said I’m not disputing the fact that the cam drive in this case is at the rear I was pointing out the maintenance advantages of it being at the front especially bearing in mind the obvious aggro involved in fixing an inner timing cover leak for example in this case.
or that N14 powered glider for example. 
IE I think it will be the harsh reality of warranty costs and out of warranty residual values which will eventually bring everyone to their senses and stop this mad rush for pointless technology.If not it will be economic suicide for all concerned.
