I think a lot of it had to do with Nationalistic Bias. There was a lot of support for Scania, Volvo, and DAF because they were not made in Germany. Everyone loved the Swedes and the Dutch. Probably going back to the war. Same with Fiat; their problem was they were Italian. The French truck makers also suffered with a poor reception although there were isolated pockets of acceptance. My own personal preference, with hindsight, was for German trucks. Reliability and toughness were my main concerns and I found Scania and Volvo to be too fussy; small frail innovative engineering items were Ok until they broke and brought everything to a standstill. Where as Mercedes and MAN were not so sophisticated and soldiered-on, even with problems.
jonmea:
ERF-NGC-European:
Carryfast:
To be fair it all depends on what you’re comparing.SA 400, Bedford TM, ERF NGC, and even Foden S83, were all as comfortable from the drivers’ perspective.■■■■■■■ and Rolls at least also easily able to match F10/12 Scania 110/111, possibly even 140/141, if not exceed them.The Brits have been unfairly treated using apples v oranges comparisons of typical poverty spec guvnor’s wagons like Gardner powered Atkis.
While, like Mercs, the Swedes liking for relatively heavy slow shifting synchro boxes and no Fuller option was another retrograde let down against them.A lot of unfair badge issues going on in that comparison.While I’d prefer a constant mesh ZF/Fuller equipped DAF 2800 or MAN over an F10/12 or Scania for similar reasons.
As for the F86 and F7 and Scania 80 poverty spec heap means poverty no matter who makes it.
+1
I agree with all that. Build-quality is often cited as a Brit-built downfall for these vehicles but often by people who were perfectly content to run Fiats /Ivecos! There were no perfect trucks in those days (and still aren’t). You had Mercs with ponderous ZF synchro-shifts but impressive reliabilty; you had Ivecos with crap build-quality but impressive engine / gearbox reliability; you had Volvos with cab comfort, reliability but high costs and slow gearshifts; you had ERFs with comfort, Fuller boxes, ■■■■■■■ engines decent power but sparse back-up. And so it goes on. Oh and the disastrous Scania 80 is a perfect example of why this subject is not as simple as it looks!To quote from Lorries of Arabia Book 1:
“It is possible that the (likes of ERF) NGC was marginalised by the fashion-consciousness of drivers and operators. Drivers were certainly wooed by competitors’ synchromesh gearboxes and slightly more comfortable cabs, but, more significantly, they were also wooed by the badge on the radiator. After all, Scania, Volvo and Mercedes Benz were seen as the Nike, Gucci and Rolex of the day. These were all excellent trucks of course, but so was the ERF, as *TRUCK’*s Trans-Euro Test verified. There may be other factors now lost to us over the passage of time, and these are all strictly speculations: we just don’t know, of course - but the baby was probably thrown out with the bathwater!”
To get back to the subject: Euro-truck vs Euro-truck; the same principal must go for the likes of MAN. Like UK-built / assembled trucks, MAN was producing the F8 and later the F90 as a strong, plain, no-nonsense lorry with Fuller constant-mesh 9-speed, 13-speed or Twin-splitter options. They were good trucks to drive and reliable too. But they were never really up there with Scania. Iveco fell into a similar category. So in this sense, we need to nod at the UK trucks for comparison.
i remember going with Dad back in 1978 to pick up a leyland clydesdale 4 wheel tipper he had bought new. It broke down on the way home and didnt get any better in the 12 months he owned it. He had enough when the warranty ran out and went and bought a Fiat 159 tipper. That lasted 13 years without major troubles.
Strange when I was driving LPF 322P all through the early 1980’s often loaded to within an inch of its life with a Muir Hill or Drott Shovel when it wasn’t hauling bulk refuse.
Way better than the hateful POS much newer F7 unit I had the misfortune to drive for a while on trunking in the mid 1980’s.
Only because its regular driver, who’d moved with it to our depot from Collumpton, decided he preferred the 1978 DAF 2800, which I regularly drove at that time and Seniority was king there which was fair enough.
However luckily Karma caught up with the piece of Swedish junk followed by some long term rentals for me.Ryder Merc 1628, Scania 112, and far better MAN from Fraikin from memory 13 speed Fuller but just might have been a twin split without me even realising it.
ChrisArbon:
I think a lot of it had to do with Nationalistic Bias. There was a lot of support for Scania, Volvo, and DAF because they were not made in Germany. Everyone loved the Swedes and the Dutch. Probably going back to the war. Same with Fiat; their problem was they were Italian. The French truck makers also suffered with a poor reception although there were isolated pockets of acceptance. My own personal preference, with hindsight, was for German trucks. Reliability and toughness were my main concerns and I found Scania and Volvo to be too fussy; small frail innovative engineering items were Ok until they broke and brought everything to a standstill. Where as Mercedes and MAN were not so sophisticated and soldiered-on, even with problems.
I wonder if it was a coincidence that the two wartime allies, Italy and Germany, both made superb n/a engines, all the way up to the end of the 1970s? In addition, their coachwork was usually functional, rather than stylish, while the Dutch, French and Swedes all exhibited a greater degree of adventure in both areas.
I’m not denigrating the German and Italian manufacturers, by the way- they’re great, IMO. 
ChrisArbon:
I think a lot of it had to do with Nationalistic Bias. There was a lot of support for Scania, Volvo, and DAF because they were not made in Germany. Everyone loved the Swedes and the Dutch. Probably going back to the war. Same with Fiat; their problem was they were Italian. The French truck makers also suffered with a poor reception although there were isolated pockets of acceptance. My own personal preference, with hindsight, was for German trucks. Reliability and toughness were my main concerns and I found Scania and Volvo to be too fussy; small frail innovative engineering items were Ok until they broke and brought everything to a standstill. Where as Mercedes and MAN were not so sophisticated and soldiered-on, even with problems.
I don’t think any objective comparison could have possibly put Merc or Volvo or Scania ahead of DAF 2800 or MAN as the better drivers’ trucks at this time.The awkward nature of those abysmal synchro gear boxes being a deal breaker to start with.
Would the dealer network and backup not be a factor in this?
Read often volvo were good in the back up department and seemed keen to expand to Britain, the f86 f88 were quite advanced in 1967/8
The tilt sleeper cabs from man, merc, daf didn’t appear till the mid 70s. Along with the sed ak, marathon, erf
Magirus had the tilt modular cab in the 60s but they were air-cooled and German, double suspicion from operators, who in those days bought and kept trucks so didn’t want to be stuck with a lemon.
Think most operators would stick with what they know to some extent, but then when they got poor products/ service from the uk makers they went elsewhere.
Also there are a lot of adverts in 1970s mags offering instant availability so that’s maybe a factor?
Also when our aec dealer closed the rep went to merc and sold mercs to the firm.
We got an intake of about 10 Merc 1418’s at Waughs in 1976, I was allocated one, within a week I asked for my Atkinson Borderer back! I hated the bloody Merc. 
Although it had a sleeper cab and power steering, it wasn’t a patch on my 220 ■■■■■■■ Atkinson for power or braking ability. Unfortunately I was refused my request for my Atki 
so I was stuck with “adolphs revenge” . I will say it was bomb proof, but I hated it with a passion. Regards Kev.
Carryfast:
ChrisArbon:
I think a lot of it had to do with Nationalistic Bias. There was a lot of support for Scania, Volvo, and DAF because they were not made in Germany. Everyone loved the Swedes and the Dutch. Probably going back to the war. Same with Fiat; their problem was they were Italian. The French truck makers also suffered with a poor reception although there were isolated pockets of acceptance. My own personal preference, with hindsight, was for German trucks. Reliability and toughness were my main concerns and I found Scania and Volvo to be too fussy; small frail innovative engineering items were Ok until they broke and brought everything to a standstill. Where as Mercedes and MAN were not so sophisticated and soldiered-on, even with problems.I don’t think any objective comparison could have possibly put Merc or Volvo or Scania ahead of DAF 2800 or MAN as the better drivers’ trucks at this time.The awkward nature of those abysmal synchro gear boxes being a deal breaker to start with.
Are you forgetting that the 13-sp Fuller installation in the DAF 2800 was poor in comparison (more like a SA400) to other makes with them? Or that the same 'box fitted to a MAN 281 was superb? Also, the 10-speed synchro in Scanias of the day were actually very good compared with the ZF synchros you are thinking of. It was that ZF and the ZF Eco-split that followed it that were such hard work (until DAF installed them in the 95 and later the 95XF, where they were very good) 
ERF-NGC-European:
Carryfast:
ChrisArbon:
I think a lot of it had to do with Nationalistic Bias. There was a lot of support for Scania, Volvo, and DAF because they were not made in Germany. Everyone loved the Swedes and the Dutch. Probably going back to the war. Same with Fiat; their problem was they were Italian. The French truck makers also suffered with a poor reception although there were isolated pockets of acceptance. My own personal preference, with hindsight, was for German trucks. Reliability and toughness were my main concerns and I found Scania and Volvo to be too fussy; small frail innovative engineering items were Ok until they broke and brought everything to a standstill. Where as Mercedes and MAN were not so sophisticated and soldiered-on, even with problems.I don’t think any objective comparison could have possibly put Merc or Volvo or Scania ahead of DAF 2800 or MAN as the better drivers’ trucks at this time.The awkward nature of those abysmal synchro gear boxes being a deal breaker to start with.
Are you forgetting that the 13-sp Fuller installation in the DAF 2800 was poor in comparison (more like a SA400) to other makes with them? Or that the same 'box fitted to a MAN 281 was superb? Also, the 10-speed synchro in Scanias of the day were actually very good compared with the ZF synchros you are thinking of. It was that ZF and the ZF Eco-split that followed it that were such hard work (until DAF installed them in the 95 and later the 95XF, where they were very good)
i remember the DAF2200’s on ferrymasters had the reverse gate 6 speed ZF, and the early 1619 mercs had a reverse gate 8 speed ZF , and your right the early scania manual boxes were better to use than that abortion of a 12 speed box in later one’s . i do still prefer a fuller or eaton though.
but here’s a choice , the FORD was the best and quickest, the scania the most comfortable and the GUY’s deafening
kevmac47:
We got an intake of about 10 Merc 1418’s at Waughs in 1976, I was allocated one, within a week I asked for my Atkinson Borderer back! I hated the bloody Merc.
- you loved little hitolph Kev - The brakes oh no 
did they have any.
That little 6-speed gearbox with 2-speed back axle was quite good the gearbox and the small clutch took some stick from the drivers with very little
repair, the cab on the 1418 at the time was just great, space wise and comfort.
-
ERF-NGC-European:
Carryfast:
ChrisArbon:
I think a lot of it had to do with Nationalistic Bias. There was a lot of support for Scania, Volvo, and DAF because they were not made in Germany. Everyone loved the Swedes and the Dutch. Probably going back to the war. Same with Fiat; their problem was they were Italian. The French truck makers also suffered with a poor reception although there were isolated pockets of acceptance. My own personal preference, with hindsight, was for German trucks. Reliability and toughness were my main concerns and I found Scania and Volvo to be too fussy; small frail innovative engineering items were Ok until they broke and brought everything to a standstill. Where as Mercedes and MAN were not so sophisticated and soldiered-on, even with problems.I don’t think any objective comparison could have possibly put Merc or Volvo or Scania ahead of DAF 2800 or MAN as the better drivers’ trucks at this time.The awkward nature of those abysmal synchro gear boxes being a deal breaker to start with.
Are you forgetting that the 13-sp Fuller installation in the DAF 2800 was poor in comparison (more like a SA400) to other makes with them? Or that the same 'box fitted to a MAN 281 was superb? Also, the 10-speed synchro in Scanias of the day were actually very good compared with the ZF synchros you are thinking of. It was that ZF and the ZF Eco-split that followed it that were such hard work (until DAF installed them in the 95 and later the 95XF, where they were very good)
I never drove a 13 speed 2800 only ZF 12 speed splitter which as I’ve said elsewhere I really liked while others seem to have disliked its unforgiving nature of either hot knife through butter, given decent matching, to totally missed graunched shift with no recovery of the situation possible .Followed by 9 speed Fuller in the ATI which again was perfect shift quality to my liking.
I don’t know how they could have made the 13 speed that bad by comparison.
Admittedly the Scania splitter which I drove in the 112 was relatively better than any of the Volvos I drove from F7 to F10 to FL10.But still not in the same league of shift quality or as nice to use as the the DAF ZF and Fuller boxes.
Also think the comfort and driving position of the F10 was overrated compared to the 2800 I even preferred the Foden S85 in that regard.In addition to that silly splitter control on the dash when at least even Foden put them all on the stick on its own in house box.
I’ll go with definitely overrated and they didn’t deserve the reputations they got mostly based on their badge not their content.
The opposite situation applying to the Brits.
As for the DAF 85/95 synchros and even 2300 ATI 16 speed definitely a case of exceptions proving rules if you’d have compared that with the awful DAF 2500 12 speed splitter or F7/10.
As for Mercs the need for the failed EPS experiment says it all.
cant say much as late 70s i started wae highways department A74 ,a7 etc lockerbie yrd . and at the time they fazzed out the NL 6x6 macks 1946 and put the atki 6x6 original E reg on second line work.The region and other regions had bought bonneted 6x6 maggi deutzs ,6 spd with a low/bull low lever between the seats ,full diff locks …and a great heater,the older guys still liked the petrol engined Macks ,roasting heater and bombproof,but i prefered the maggi over the atki when out learning to drive.but and big but ,floors rusted out after 3yrs ,couldnt handle the salt and constant washing iirc lasted 10yrs before sold onto private hands
JIMBO47:
cant say much as late 70s i started wae highways department A74 ,a7 etc lockerbie yrd . and at the time they fazzed out the NL 6x6 macks 1946 and put the atki 6x6 original E reg on second line work.The region and other regions had bought bonneted 6x6 maggi deutzs ,6 spd with a low/bull low lever between the seats ,full diff locks …and a great heater,the older guys still liked the petrol engined Macks ,roasting heater and bombproof,but i prefered the maggi over the atki when out learning to drive.but and big but ,floors rusted out after 3yrs ,couldnt handle the salt and constant washing iirc lasted 10yrs before sold onto private hands
We also had a few of the Maggies on Surrey County in the early 80’s.I liked them as much as the DoT Foden S85’s.The Atkis were really primitive things by then.
I had a look for sales figures in the CM archives, but the articles I could find were rubbish- just highlights, like the top three overall sellers, and the percentage of imports. By 1975, the Swedes, Mercedes and Magirus had all been on the UK market for nearly a decade, so seeing how that market reacted to them would have informed this debate well.
[zb]
anorak:
I had a look for sales figures in the CM archives, but the articles I could find were rubbish- just highlights, like the top three overall sellers, and the percentage of imports. By 1975, the Swedes, Mercedes and Magirus had all been on the UK market for nearly a decade, so seeing how that market reacted to them would have informed this debate well.
At that point Foden were still probably going to be big players in the heavy rigid market.Ford D series at the lighter end ?.
Don’t think you’re going to see any big move in tractor unit market shares until after the F10/12 etc had arrived on the scene.
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
I had a look for sales figures in the CM archives, but the articles I could find were rubbish- just highlights, like the top three overall sellers, and the percentage of imports. By 1975, the Swedes, Mercedes and Magirus had all been on the UK market for nearly a decade, so seeing how that market reacted to them would have informed this debate well.At that point Foden were still probably going to be big players in the heavy rigid market.Ford D series at the lighter end ?.
Don’t think you’re going to see any big move in tractor unit market shares until after the F10/12 etc had arrived on the scene.
Swedes vs other imports? Relevant?
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
I had a look for sales figures in the CM archives, but the articles I could find were rubbish- just highlights, like the top three overall sellers, and the percentage of imports. By 1975, the Swedes, Mercedes and Magirus had all been on the UK market for nearly a decade, so seeing how that market reacted to them would have informed this debate well.At that point Foden were still probably going to be big players in the heavy rigid market.Ford D series at the lighter end ?.
Don’t think you’re going to see any big move in tractor unit market shares until after the F10/12 etc had arrived on the scene.
Swedes vs other imports? Relevant?
‘‘We know they beat our own makes’’.
At this point in time ?.
The definition of ‘beat’ regardless ?.
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
I had a look for sales figures in the CM archives, but the articles I could find were rubbish- just highlights, like the top three overall sellers, and the percentage of imports. By 1975, the Swedes, Mercedes and Magirus had all been on the UK market for nearly a decade, so seeing how that market reacted to them would have informed this debate well.At that point Foden were still probably going to be big players in the heavy rigid market.Ford D series at the lighter end ?.
Don’t think you’re going to see any big move in tractor unit market shares until after the F10/12 etc had arrived on the scene.
Swedes vs other imports? Relevant?
‘‘We know they beat our own makes’’.
At this point in time ?.
The definition of ‘beat’ regardless ?.
Irrelevant to thread title. Comparisons between the things in that title, with actual first-hand evidence, or quoted contemporary texts are relevant.
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
‘‘We know they beat our own makes’’.
At this point in time ?.
The definition of ‘beat’ regardless ?.Irrelevant to thread title. Comparisons between the things in that title, with actual first-hand evidence, or quoted contemporary texts are relevant.
Fair comment.But don’t see how it’s going to be possible at that stage in the game.Sort of a comparison between Unicorns and Girrafes taking the title literally.
Don’t think there was ever much of a cross over between the German’s and the Swedes’ core UK customer bases from the start.They seemed to be a distinct buying choice of mostly conquest sales from the Brits rarely from each other.
Having said that there seemed to be a battle going on between them all among the big hire fleets at least Scania v Merc v MAN.But that would be 1980’s not <70’s.
Just from this drivers’ point of view MAN was way out in front in terms of best product.Although sales figures obviously don’t always reflect the qualities of the product.
Carryfast:
ERF-NGC-European:
Carryfast:
ChrisArbon:
I think a lot of it had to do with Nationalistic Bias. There was a lot of support for Scania, Volvo, and DAF because they were not made in Germany. Everyone loved the Swedes and the Dutch. Probably going back to the war. Same with Fiat; their problem was they were Italian. The French truck makers also suffered with a poor reception although there were isolated pockets of acceptance. My own personal preference, with hindsight, was for German trucks. Reliability and toughness were my main concerns and I found Scania and Volvo to be too fussy; small frail innovative engineering items were Ok until they broke and brought everything to a standstill. Where as Mercedes and MAN were not so sophisticated and soldiered-on, even with problems.I don’t think any objective comparison could have possibly put Merc or Volvo or Scania ahead of DAF 2800 or MAN as the better drivers’ trucks at this time.The awkward nature of those abysmal synchro gear boxes being a deal breaker to start with.
Are you forgetting that the 13-sp Fuller installation in the DAF 2800 was poor in comparison (more like a SA400) to other makes with them? Or that the same 'box fitted to a MAN 281 was superb? Also, the 10-speed synchro in Scanias of the day were actually very good compared with the ZF synchros you are thinking of. It was that ZF and the ZF Eco-split that followed it that were such hard work (until DAF installed them in the 95 and later the 95XF, where they were very good)
I never drove a 13 speed 2800 only ZF 12 speed splitter which as I’ve said elsewhere I really liked while others seem to have disliked its unforgiving nature of either hot knife through butter, given decent matching, to totally missed graunched shift with no recovery of the situation possible
I don’t know how they could have made the 13 speed that bad by comparison.
Admittedly the Scania splitter which I drove in the 112 was relatively better than any of the Volvos I drove from F7 to F10 to FL10.But still not in the same league of shift quality or as nice to use as the the DAF ZF and Fuller boxes.
Also think the comfort and driving position of the F10 was overrated compared to the 2800 I even preferred the Foden S85 in that regard.In addition to that silly splitter control on the dash when at least even Foden put them all on the stick on its own in house box.
I’ll go with definitely overrated and they didn’t deserve the reputations they got mostly based on their badge not their content.
The opposite situation applying to the Brits.
As for the DAF 85/95 synchros and even 2300 ATI 16 speed definitely a case of exceptions proving rules if you’d have compared that with the awful DAF 2500 12 speed splitter or F7/10.
As for Mercs the need for the failed EPS experiment says it all.
Scania didn’t offer splitter 'boxes in the 2 series, it was either a 5- or 10 speed that was on offer. The 12 speed (3 over 3) splitter 'box was introduced when they launched the 3 series. No wonder you disliked the synchro 'boxes if you can’t tell the difference…
The other factor, which I do not think has been mentioned yet, is the European Free Trade Agreement.
efta.int/about-efta/europea … ssociation
From 1960, this should have given the Swedes an advantage over the Germans, until GB joined the EEC in 1973. From what I can gather, it did not: Scania, Volvo and Mercedes’ first GB registrations were on the ‘D’ (1966); a handful of Magirus’ on the C, mentioned above is the only exception I know.
Were the Swedish makes cheaper in those years, or did they have a financial advantage which gave them the facility to invest more freely in service networks/cheap parts etc? Does anyone on the forum have memories of buying or operating the vehicles?