Transfer weights to get grip. courtesy of Stevieboy308

Righto this is a follow on thread from the one i recently started about grip issues, titled Intelligent Desirable Drivers Please Help, mainly applying to artics but can also apply to other vehicles with tag or mid lift axles.

In that thread Stevieboy308 posted about dropping the trailer right down and also raising the tractor unit to full height, in order to shift some extra weight onto the tractor unit…
…in the other thread we discussed lifting the unit mid lift (or rear tag) or at least dumping the air from it (as some don’t actually lift) in order to transfer some weight onto the drive axle.

We also discussed switching off TC or ASR to enable drive to be maintained to keep going and save the clutch, because with the traction control or ASR engaged soon as the vehicle detects any wheelspin it cuts the power, a bad thing.
We also discussed the use of diff lock, and to be bloody careful with it if the surface is grippy (arguably if its grippy it won’t be needed) but no two set of circs are the same and so you learn your own lorry and make judgements as to what you need and what you don’t at the time.
All clear so far? good :laughing:

Right thinking caps on, cos this is stretching my pin sized mind to explain the bugger, and gawd nose what you’ll make of it, heads down here we go :bulb:

Righto, today i tried Stevieboys suggestions with an empty lorry and with another lorry loaded.
Both are general artic powder tanks, both have lifting mid lifts not as makes any difference for this report, any trailer lifting axles left down for weighing to make it the same configuration for all weights, with me?

Basically, tractor unit only on the weighbridge and performed 2 weights with the empty vehicle, 3 with the loaded vehicle.
Empty lorry tared @ 15140
Loaded lorry grossed at 42600.

1st weight was tractor in normal condition, makes no difference whether the mid lift is up or not…i’ll come to that as an after explanation…
2nd weight was tractor with trailer air dumped…i also released the parking brake after dropping then re-applied it cos the vehicle park brake works on the trailer too and suspension issues would have affected weight shifting.
3rd (with loaded vehicle) was with the tractor unit at max height.

Empty lorry.
1st weight tractor unit in normal state 9960 kgs
2nd weight, trailer air dumped, tractor at full height, 10220kgs.
remember the lift axle was down for this experiment, its possible there might have been larger gains had the front lifter of the trailer been up, certainly there would have been more weight on the tractor regardless.

Loaded lorry.
1st weight, tractor unit in normal state 19460
2nd weight, trailer air dumped, tractor at normal height 22220 :open_mouth: :open_mouth:
3rd weight, trailer still dumped, tractor at full height 22480.

So there you are, proof indeed of Stevieboys advise being spot on, not as we doubted it but nice to see the results.
The biggest gains are of course loaded, with a massive 2760kgs extra weight transferred to the tractor and if you raised the unit to full height, you gain a full 3020 kgs extra, i’m quite shocked to be honest, and rather disappointed in meself i’d never thought of it before, idiot i am :blush:

So when you’re spinning merrily in the snow and wondering what you can do, remember this neat little trick.

Now i mentioned raising the mid lift of the tractor unit, or in the case of Scanias etc at least dumping the air cos loaded the axle won’t raise fully, but the gains will still be massive.
I use an axle weigher regularly so know what gain there is with mid lift up or with air dumped when loaded.
So if you have a standard artic with mid lift, and raise the lifter, the weight of the unit drive axle goes up from approx 9.5/10 tons up to around 12.5/13.5…cos obviously some of the weight is transferred onto the steer axle.
Thinking this further, if you were stuck somewhere and lifted the mid lift and dropped the trailer air out, you could quite possibly increase the drive axle weight to around 15 or more tons, now that would make a bloody big difference to whether you got up a slippery slope or not.

Word of warning, Stevieboy (having rechecked the other thread, i believe it was Captain Caveman who warned about the pick up ramps, apologies CC) did mention in a post to be careful doing this cos the trailer will be sticking up at the front, the chassis rails will get closer to the pick up ramps on the tractor, if you have them, so be wary on turns or rough ground.

SEVERE WARNING…remember also you will have raised the front of the trailer quite considerably, so be aware of your surroundings, buildings canopies bridges etc, might be an idea to have a measure up anyway to see what difference it makes to your lorry, in conditions causing you to make use of this the height increase might easily slip your mind.

Many thanks to Stevieboy308, i’ve learned something that will likely be very useful during the winter, though i suspect the offroad lads already knew all this.

and breathe :confused:

Just one thing to think about though,on my lorry with the air suspension in hold position there is very little air to the rear chambers so front brakes only .

If you drop the trailer down all the way aren’t you running the risk/ likelihood of the rear wheels being braked by the trailer chassis itself?

So basically its dump the trailer on its arse and jack the unit right up ?

Hey Juddian

Interesting reading. I think I may have misunderstood this. In basic language then, you put a tractor unit on some scales, leaving the connected trailer not on the scales. You measured the “weight” of the unit. Then you raised the tractor air and dumped the trailer axle air. After this the trailer would appear to be sloping rearward as you look at it side on. You then took a second reading. After this the tractor had more “weight” showing on the scales?

I don’t doubt this works, just can’t get my mass and balanced head around the maths. The effective moment arm would be shorter with the trailer sloping rearward, so in theory the weight should transfer rearward? In theory tilting the trailer towards the unit would transfer the c of g forwards? Couple of pics in this link show the change in cof g nicely with vehicles on slopes (scroll to bottom of page):-

weighing-systems.com/Technol … weigh.html

I’m not arguing the toss at all as don’t doubt what you measured is real. Just can’t get how this is working.

Not sure if this relates but recently I had to carry a 45’ container. Wow I hear you all cry but in reality it’s no biggy.

Anyway having deceided my 5th wheel needed adjustment I extended a couple of inches.
For clarity the gap from front of box to unit was 6inches, but as my gut instinct deceided this wasn’t quite enough I moved the 5th wheel forward a notch giving 8 inches (I’m avoiding a ■■■■■■ reference here on purpose due to wife supervision).

Anyway the extra traction I gained from the added length (that’s what she said) was negated by the loss of steering accuracy, in fact under coasting conditions I actually felt the steering struggle enough to apply some retardation/braking in order to correct a potential tea spillage moment.

So in a nutshell, traction is king but be wary of steering axle weight loss. In a every action has an equal and opposite reaction stylee and ting…

Finding the balance is key as well as driving to your load, after all your trailer is the boss.

Excellent post Juddian. And equal kudos to Stevieboy.
As you say a surprising difference.

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Before taking on my latest job, I had to actually think about the weather and how difficult it could be. We deliver to some of the most remote areas with very tight entrances and some pretty big hill climbs. All very well in summer but I dread the thought of snow and heavy rain, even frost whilst making these deliveries. I thank you for taking the time of not only doing this but to actually share this with everyone. I know I am feeling schooled.

Freight Dog:
Hey Juddian

Interesting reading. I think I may have misunderstood this. In basic language then, you put a tractor unit on some scales, leaving the connected trailer not on the scales. You measured the “weight” of the unit. Then you raised the tractor air and dumped the trailer axle air. After this the trailer would appear to be sloping rearward as you look at it side on. You then took a second reading. After this the tractor had more “weight” showing on the scales?

I don’t doubt this works, just can’t get my mass and balanced head around the maths. The effective moment arm would be shorter with the trailer sloping rearward, so in theory the weight should transfer rearward? In theory tilting the trailer towards the unit would transfer the c of g forwards? Couple of pics in this link show the change in cof g nicely with vehicles on slopes:-

weighing-systems.com/Technol … weigh.html

I’m not arguing the toss at all as don’t doubt what you measured is real. Just can’t get how this is working.

You and me both can’t compute it, i suppose cos the axles are now at lowest point they’ve effectively become part of a solid chassis with no suspension, so if you drop the trailer and lift the unit you are effectively starting to lift the front axle of the trailer up, or rather the rear axle is becoming the hinge at it were, hence the weight increase.

I didn’t doubt Stevieboy for a minute cos there’s lots of odd things that shouldn’t work but they do, or vice versa.
MAN fifth wheel adjustment on 6x2 midlift…moving the fifth wheel fully back doesn’t overload the drive axle it overloads the mid lft while the drive axle stayed near enough the same…no i can’t explain that either but i know it’s right cos i went over the axle weigher i mentioned numerous times to find the perfect setting for the fifth wheel when i first got the lorry.

My head hurts :neutral_face: hopefully someone with an idea what going on will turn up and explain it in terms even i can grasp.

By the way the lead up to the weighbridge is as level to the bridge as makes no odds, its not one of these semi temp free standing things you have to drive up a ramp onto.
I’ve split weighed there several times in the past to make sure the load is distributing itself reasonably, and when the two weights are added together they are always within 300kgs of the single weight.

Juddian:

Freight Dog:
Hey Juddian

Interesting reading. I think I may have misunderstood this. In basic language then, you put a tractor unit on some scales, leaving the connected trailer not on the scales. You measured the “weight” of the unit. Then you raised the tractor air and dumped the trailer axle air. After this the trailer would appear to be sloping rearward as you look at it side on. You then took a second reading. After this the tractor had more “weight” showing on the scales?

I don’t doubt this works, just can’t get my mass and balanced head around the maths. The effective moment arm would be shorter with the trailer sloping rearward, so in theory the weight should transfer rearward? In theory tilting the trailer towards the unit would transfer the c of g forwards? Couple of pics in this link show the change in cof g nicely with vehicles on slopes:-

weighing-systems.com/Technol … weigh.html

I’m not arguing the toss at all as don’t doubt what you measured is real. Just can’t get how this is working.

You and me both can’t compute it, i suppose cos the axles are now at lowest point they’ve effectively become part of a solid chassis with no suspension, so if you drop the trailer and lift the unit you are effectively starting to lift the front axle of the trailer up, or rather the rear axle is becoming the hinge at it were, hence the weight increase.

I didn’t doubt Stevieboy for a minute cos there’s lots of odd things that shouldn’t work but they do, or vice versa.
MAN fifth wheel adjustment on 6x2 midlift…moving the fifth wheel fully back doesn’t overload the drive axle it overloads the mid lft while the drive axle stayed near enough the same…no i can’t explain that either but i know it’s right cos i went over the axle weigher i mentioned numerous times to find the perfect setting for the fifth wheel when i first got the lorry.

My head hurts :neutral_face: hopefully someone with an idea what going on will turn up and explain it in terms even i can grasp.

By the way the lead up to the weighbridge is as level to the bridge as makes no odds, its not one of these semi temp free standing things you have to drive up a ramp onto.
I’ve split weighed there several times in the past to make sure the load is distributing itself reasonably, and when the two weights are added together they are always within 300kgs of the single weight.

Ah. I see. The only way I could see this mathematically making any sense is if as you say you start to lift the front of the trailer axles, which would add imparted weight to the unit. But that would have to be enough to overcome the loss of weight on the unit by tilting the trailer rewards, which it seems to have done! I’m surprised as the front trailer axles must be at full extension before their weight starts to be taken up, and they droop pretty far on the trailing arms.

Maybe it works like this- with the air out of the trailer and unit high… imagine it really exaggerated. … the weight is only on the unit and the rearmost of the trailer axles.
With normal balanced air suspension the weight on the trailer would go through, effectively, the centre axle. In it’s altered state it’s going throuh a point a couple of feet further back.
Would that explain it?

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Franglais:
Maybe it works like this- with the air out of the trailer and unit high… imagine it really exaggerated. … the weight is only on the unit and the rearmost of the trailer axles.
With normal balanced air suspension the weight on the trailer would go through, effectively, the centre axle. In it’s altered state it’s going throuh a point a couple of feet further back.
Would that explain it?

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Yeah I think you’re right, that’s what’s happening, the pivot point is changing to the rear of the trailer. Good research, neat tip! :smiley:

Punchy Dan.
Yes brakes are a good point, i wasn’t suggesting anyone goes bowling up the outside snowbound lane of a motorway on the limiter, this is purely to get up a slope or rise that would otherwsie halt you, no nights out for me ta :laughing:

Vid
Fair point you’d have to judge your particular vehicle on its merits as to what you can do.

Chaversdad.
Basically yes, but the figures show its the dropping of the trailer on its arse that gives the big gain, raising the mid lift of the tractor is the other biggie, the two together would be a huge gain on the drive axle loading.

Dipper Dave.
Its amazing just how unstable some lorries are when you get in them, then you look and see the fifth wheel is miles away from where it should be, a few mins sorting that out and all good again.

Franglais.
Yes the difference has surprised me.
We’ll recocgnise other Trucknetters when the winter comes, every other bugger will be spinning merrily and getting nowhere, we’ll be found at the back of the trailer dropping air out like billio, see ya lads should have visited trucknet for Stevieboy’s tips… :sunglasses:

UKtramp.
You aint the only one who’s been to school mate, this is proof that every day is a schoolday :open_mouth:

Bloody hell, you Franglais and you Freight Dog, can you go through that exchange again me mince pies have just glazed over :cry:

Freight Dog:
Hey Juddian

Interesting reading. I think I may have misunderstood this. In basic language then, you put a tractor unit on some scales, leaving the connected trailer not on the scales. You measured the “weight” of the unit. Then you raised the tractor air and dumped the trailer axle air. After this the trailer would appear to be sloping rearward as you look at it side on. You then took a second reading. After this the tractor had more “weight” showing on the scales?

I don’t doubt this works, just can’t get my mass and balanced head around the maths. The effective moment arm would be shorter with the trailer sloping rearward, so in theory the weight should transfer rearward? In theory tilting the trailer towards the unit would transfer the c of g forwards? Couple of pics in this link show the change in cof g nicely with vehicles on slopes (scroll to bottom of page):-

weighing-systems.com/Technol … weigh.html

I’m not arguing the toss at all as don’t doubt what you measured is real. Just can’t get how this is working.

Two things spring to mind.

One, was the handbrake disengaged between lifting and measuring? I’ve found when lifting and dropping suspensions (trailer and unit) with the handbrake engaged, the trailer and unit bodies get pulled out of their ‘regular’ positions and the suspension tries to compensate. If that makes sense. Scrub this, as explained below, the handbrake was released.

Two, I’m sure there’s some maths that explains that as the trailer increases it’s angle (relative to the ground), the forces on the front end increase. Unfortunately I just can’t quite get it to work in my head. In fact, as I typed that, it just seemed wrong. I’ll leave it there though just in case. I’m thinking horizontal distance from the pivot point has an effect. As the trailer headboard rises, it’s horizontal distance from the pivote decreases.

Captain Caveman.

Yes i released and re-applied the parking brake after suspension alteration allowing it to settle with the vehicle that applies the trailer brakes in park, not necessary with the other lorry which doesn’t apply the trailer brake in park.

Normally weight will be evenly spread through the 3 trailer axles. This can be considered as going through the middle one. As you’ve configured the outfit there will very little weight going through the 2 lead axles. Look at the tyres. All the weight will be through the rear trailer axle.
Imagine again, moving the rear axle back another ten feet with the load in the same place. See how more weight is transferred onto the unit?

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Just wondering what the weight will be on the trailer rear axle ?

Punchy Dan:
Just wondering what the weight will be on the trailer rear axle ?

A lot. Look at the tyres when you dump air out the trailer next time. As Juddian described it with the unit jacked up you’ll almost be able to change the wheel on the lead axle! Probably a greater effect on a shorter trailer (tanker?) than a longer one too I’d think.

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Franglais:

Punchy Dan:
Just wondering what the weight will be on the trailer rear axle ?

A lot. Look at the tyres when you dump air out the trailer next time. As Juddian described it with the unit jacked up you’ll almost be able to change the wheel on the lead axle! Probably a greater effect on a shorter trailer (tanker?) than a longer one too I’d think.

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I don’t think I’ll be dumping trailer air ,lifting a trailer lift axle and or midlift when loaded is plenty if it won’t go then that’s it ,and diff lock is to get you out of trouble not in to trouble .

OK, I think I have it.

I was right about the angle of the trailer having an effect on the forces acting on the headboard.

Taking it as a torque problem since torque is simply a force acting about pivot.

Torque = distance from pivot x mass x sin angle of the trailer from ground.

Therefore, the more the trailer lifts, the more force (or the mass of the trailer) affects the headboard.

That’s the best I’ve got. I’m in the bath right now and have better things to do than remember my physics! !