The company (large private family business - 100 trucks 250 trailers) I work for apparently had an audit back in April by HMRC.
The night out and food allowance are a tax rebate… which most folk know. Some guys have parked up in the yard and the HMRC have said that one cannot claim night out allowance for that as they could drive home and sleep there.
The company have now said that there’s no night out allowance for any driver parking up within 15/20 mile of the yard but don’t define exactly the distance. That makes things difficult - often I only get 2 nights out per work week as invariably I have to return to the yard for a load or trailer swop and cannot get far enough away again due to working time or driving time.
Before I worked for a blue chip company who paid a gross night out allowance of £28.80 to trampers and it didn’t matter where one parked. Another company I know of pay £42 per night gross. Presumably they don’t want issues with the HMRC.
It would seem my firm are reluctant to pay a gross night out allowance which would solve the issue as that would cost them more. At present the driver is worse off. Just wondering if anyone else has had the same experience and if drivers are trying to resolve the matter. e.g. few nights ago it took me 2 hours to get loaded and then only had 30 mins to get to a layby down the road (yard is too noisy for me to sleep in).
For both parties it would seem the best solution is that drivers who have to go to the yard for a loading/trailer swop and are within a radius of the yard like say 20/25 mile should be paid a gross night out and those beyond that paid the net amount. The other issue is that empty trailers don’t come back to the yard asap in the morning because driver’s stay away to be sure of their allowance. So that is a possible solution - other look for another job that pays full night outs!
Interested to hear from other folk but I am away on a work week now from 0400 tomorrow so I’ll have to reply on Tue when I return.
You shouldn’t really see expenses as part of your wages. If you are genuinely away from base, then you will incur expenses and there is a maximum rate that can be paid tax free per night.
If people park close to the yard, chances are quite a few of them are either jumping in the car or getting picked up to go home for the night, so it is understandable the policy your company has.
Possibly one reason is they are supposed to do random checks that the drivers are actually incuring expenses not just paying out the max amount.
Not done many nights out, but many places when on agency had a notice in the office stating that you had to be x miles from base for nights out as people were taking the pee.
Suspect gross or net would just incur more admin and the company would gave to pay more enployers NI etc. So no way they’ll go with that.
Noremac:
You shouldn’t really see expenses as part of your wages. If you are genuinely away from base, then you will incur expenses and there is a maximum rate that can be paid tax free per night.
If people park close to the yard, chances are quite a few of them are either jumping in the car or getting picked up to go home for the night, so it is understandable the policy your company has.
‘Away from base’ is the issue. Base is 40 miles from my home - no way I could just pop home for the night.
The current doc to read is (for tramping with sleeper cab)
gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manual … l/eim66130 last update Dec 2020
Food allowance £10 per day if one is away for 10+hours
£5 per day incidental expenses
£26.20 per night overnight allowance.
What it does not state is what the distance from home or work yard is? Presumably beyond reasonable walking distance like 2-3+ miles. When I was a supply teacher the distance was 25 miles but this is the most up to date info I can find.
Would be grateful if someone who is friendly with their company accountant could confirm this. My firm will not and claim that HMRC have not responded to their request to clarify the issue. Presumably this is why the blue chip companies pay the night out allowance as deductable income.
Last week I had two nights when I had to park up early as the load would not be ready until 0400 in the morning.
As I will be suggesting to my firm far better to pay the food allowance and incidental expenses tax free and overnight alowance tax deductable (they pay £25 per night). So for tramping one would get £138 per week with no concerns from the HMRC.
We were often routed via the depot for secure parking, if it was a short daily rest period, there is no way a driver is going to drive an hour each way to go home, by the time you have got home, had a shower and something to eat, kicked the missus and kissed the dog it was time to go back to work.
Park up outside of the radius they won’t pay inside, or if you are stuck at base go home, but, make it an 11 hour rest period and then an hour either side for travelling, ie 13 hours minimum, when they’re plans have been disrupted enough times they’ll soon clarify the issue.
When it comes to negotiating the outcome, one pay scheme i was on paid a taxable allowance even if you got back to the yard, not as much as a night out obviously, but it encouraged you to complete the journey.
It might not help you personally because you live so far from your work, might be time to find another job where they plan you away far enough all week so you get the NO allowance all week every week.
Re the title of your thread, if night out allowances disappeared the industry would collapse.
Juddian:
Park up outside of the radius they won’t pay inside, or if you are stuck at base go home, but, make it an 11 hour rest period and then an hour either side for travelling, ie 13 hours minimum, when they’re plans have been disrupted enough times they’ll soon clarify the issue.
When it comes to negotiating the outcome, one pay scheme i was on paid a taxable allowance even if you got back to the yard, not as much as a night out obviously, but it encouraged you to complete the journey.
It might not help you personally because you live so far from your work, might be time to find another job where they plan you away far enough all week so you get the NO allowance all week every week.
Re the title of your thread, if night out allowances disappeared the industry would collapse.
But the radius is not clarified which does not help. The industry may get interesting now as no more East Europeans coming.
jessejazza:
Juddian:
Park up outside of the radius they won’t pay inside, or if you are stuck at base go home, but, make it an 11 hour rest period and then an hour either side for travelling, ie 13 hours minimum, when they’re plans have been disrupted enough times they’ll soon clarify the issue.
When it comes to negotiating the outcome, one pay scheme i was on paid a taxable allowance even if you got back to the yard, not as much as a night out obviously, but it encouraged you to complete the journey.
It might not help you personally because you live so far from your work, might be time to find another job where they plan you away far enough all week so you get the NO allowance all week every week.
Re the title of your thread, if night out allowances disappeared the industry would collapse.
But the radius is not clarified which does not help.
Use your brain. Ensure that you park up in suitably distant location so that you don’t get questioned. Reading between the lines it sounds like your runs are planned such so that you have the time to get back to the yard, but you want to increase your income and not drive home every day, so have taken it upon yourself to do nights out that are not needed. If the other drivers are managing to do the same runs and get back to the yard then it’s only a matter of time until you’re hauled in the office for a disciplinary for taking the ■■■■ (and rightly so). Your commuting time from/to home is not your company’s, nor HMRCs problem.
Mick Bracewell:
jessejazza:
Juddian:
Park up outside of the radius they won’t pay inside, or if you are stuck at base go home, but, make it an 11 hour rest period and then an hour either side for travelling, ie 13 hours minimum, when they’re plans have been disrupted enough times they’ll soon clarify the issue.
When it comes to negotiating the outcome, one pay scheme i was on paid a taxable allowance even if you got back to the yard, not as much as a night out obviously, but it encouraged you to complete the journey.
It might not help you personally because you live so far from your work, might be time to find another job where they plan you away far enough all week so you get the NO allowance all week every week.
Re the title of your thread, if night out allowances disappeared the industry would collapse.
But the radius is not clarified which does not help.
Use your brain. Ensure that you park up in suitably distant location so that you don’t get questioned. Reading between the lines it sounds like your runs are planned such so that you have the time to get back to the yard, but you want to increase your income and not drive home every day, so have taken it upon yourself to do nights out that are not needed. If the other drivers are managing to do the same runs and get back to the yard then it’s only a matter of time until you’re hauled in the office for a disciplinary for taking the ■■■■ (and rightly so). Your commuting time from/to home is not your company’s, nor HMRCs problem.
Thank you for your rudeness. I was appointed as a tramper driver. As far as a trip back to the yard is concerned what it means is one weighs up whether to park up a good distance away and then go in in the morning. A night out allowance is equivalent to about 3 hours wages. As traffic have said it is their responsibility for planning loads. The issue is that empty trailers are not getting back into the yard and/or one is given a local pickup and so no allowance. What matters for the business is that EIM66130 is adhered to whilst still achieving the most work possible. If you can’t manage a little arithmetic then don’t post on my threads.
“A night out allowance is equivalent to about 3 hours wages.”
So now we get to the crux of the issue. As suspected, you are trying to inflate your wage packet by using your night out allowance as pay. A recurring theme amongst drivers who don’t have the mental capacity to understand what night out allowance actually is 
. It makes no odds what you were employed as. If the company won’t pay night outs because HMRC says so, plus they need their trailers back in the yard preventing you from having one some distance away then your options are :
- have your night out in the yard, unpaid.
- go home and return in the morning.
- leave and find suitable better paying employment elsewhere.
Mick Bracewell:
“A night out allowance is equivalent to about 3 hours wages.”
So now we get to the crux of the issue. As suspected, you are trying to inflate your wage packet by using your night out allowance as pay. A recurring theme amongst drivers who don’t have the mental capacity to understand what night out allowance actually is . It makes no odds what you were employed as. If the company won’t pay night outs because HMRC says so, plus they need their trailers back in the yard preventing you from having one some distance away then your options are :
- have your night out in the yard, unpaid.
- go home and return in the morning.
- leave and find suitable better paying employment elsewhere.
Well I realise that thanks.
Blue chip companies often pay the allowance taxable so I don’t agree with your comments. If one is out all night no reason why you shouldn’t be paid. The issue is whether it is in the yard or 5 mile down the road. As I’ve mentioned there are 3 allowances but you didn’t bother reading that… the 2 other allowances would be better from the firm’s position.
I presume the blue chips are part of your meal allowance incidental to your night out allowance. The night out money you are relying on to top up your wages is an agreed amount by HMRC. This used to be set by region rather than a blanket figure. Strange really as it is an allowance to wash your blankets and help towards an evening meal and breakfast. That’s why there is a different rate for sleeper and day cab drivers.
I think you will have a shock if you think you have seen the last of the eastern bloc and foreign drivers too.
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Don’t see why they’d pay meal allowance if unit is back at their yard, the fact you live 40 miles away is more your problem than theirs.
On the other hand they shouldn’t refuse to pay it if you are a few miles away and out of time, maybe a case of too many drivers have took the p iss.
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wrighty1:
Don’t see why they’d pay meal allowance if unit is back at their yard, the fact you live 40 miles away is more your problem than theirs.
On the other hand they shouldn’t refuse to pay it if you are a few miles away and out of time, maybe a case of too many drivers have took the ■■■■.
They can do what they want! The wording is >10 hrs so could claim on the approval form. The point I tried to make earlier is that the distance from yard is not specified.
jessejazza:
wrighty1:
Don’t see why they’d pay meal allowance if unit is back at their yard, the fact you live 40 miles away is more your problem than theirs.
On the other hand they shouldn’t refuse to pay it if you are a few miles away and out of time, maybe a case of too many drivers have took the ■■■■.
They can do what they want! The wording is >10 hrs so could claim on the approval form. The point I tried to make earlier is that the distance from yard is not specified.
On your last point if you’re out you’re out, it’s as simple as that and they should pay the allowance. What they appear to be saying is if you are for instance stuck out 15 miles away they won’t pay the allowance. S h i t show of a company if you ask me, if they get away with that I would think it won’t be long before they stop paying it altogether.
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wrighty1:
jessejazza:
wrighty1:
Don’t see why they’d pay meal allowance if unit is back at their yard, the fact you live 40 miles away is more your problem than theirs.
On the other hand they shouldn’t refuse to pay it if you are a few miles away and out of time, maybe a case of too many drivers have took the ■■■■.
They can do what they want! The wording is >10 hrs so could claim on the approval form. The point I tried to make earlier is that the distance from yard is not specified.
On your last point if you’re out you’re out, it’s as simple as that and they should pay the allowance. What they appear to be saying is if you are for instance stuck out 15 miles away they won’t pay the allowance. S h i t show of a company if you ask me, if they get away with that I would think it won’t be long before they stop paying it altogether.
yep my thoughts too - just being plain mean.
Blue chip firms pay gross I presume as they have several depots and a central pay admin - thus difficult to log/approve nights out. As I have explored the tax allowance is better claimed on food and incidental expenses… from a firm’s point of view no risk compared with over looking a night out error should HMRC audit.