Now, let’s go further with teoretical divagations.
I run the same question on some other forum, and I found that in Poland and most propably in Germany, this is considered as towing (which is something different than pulling the trailer) and as such does not require C+E (but towing vehicles have to observe other rules, there has to be triangle or orange beacon fitted to the towed vehicles, the speed limits are lower, no towing on a motorway and towed vehicle has to use at least red lights on the back).
It seems that driving licenses are pretty much standarized, but what with this bits that arent? Are they valid only in one country, or the EU countries have to respect them on mutual basis? So from the example above: I have Polish C driving license, can I drive this in Britain on it, since my license allows me to do so? And vice versa: British B driving license allows you to drive 18 seater minibus not for hire or reward, is it valid only in UK, or can you take 17 of your friends and go with that minibus to Poland for holidays? Or, what if I am 16 years old with Polish driving license category T (that is non existent in UK), can I drive a farm tractor with trailer or two (if it’s legal at all in UK) on British roads despite that I don’t have category B? Or: are tram driving license exchangable? In Poland it is like separate basic category, you got full training, including highway code and stuff and exam, and you don’t need to have car license to drive a tram, here it seems tram license is some kind of addition to your B license…
Own Account Driver:
The load imposed on the ground by the rear axle of a car is all that’s being towed - that’s all that’s ever being towed unless you’re towing a hot air balloon.
That is most definitely not how it is calculated. The weight of the trailer is the entire weight of the trailer and not the weight of the trailer imposed by the trailer’s own wheels on the ground.
For example if you had a trailer on your car that weighed 750kg and 700kg of that was through the wheels and 50kg of it was imposed on the towball of your car the trailer would still weigh 750kg. So a car on a spec lift that weighs a ton is still a ton trailer even if part of the weight it on the spec lift.
marlow:
Yesterday I loaded waste cans in Manchester and grossed at 43’800kgs. I reversed the trailer off the weighbridge and weighed the unit at 22’300kgs so the trailer in this case weighed 21’500kgs and yet the load weighed 29 ton
No, the trailer still weighed something in the region of 36000kg, just because only 21500kg of that is imposed on the road via the wheels it doesn’t make the trailer any lighter.
marlow:
My point is that the rigid is carrying part of the load and the trailer i.e if pulled over an axel weigh bridge would weigh <750kgs.
The fact that the trailer imposes part of its load on the towing vehicle and part of it on the road via its wheels doesn’t make it any lighter, at the end of the day if the car weighs a ton it is still a ton trailer and therefore still technically needs brakes.
Admittedly it’s been a few years now, but in my day on recovery, there was no legal definition of exactly what a trailer is in the context of a vehicle on a spec lift.
Please, don’t tell me what your opinion is, or even what you assume to be the law.
Show me the law that points to what can or cannot be carried on a spec lift.
Chas:
Admittedly it’s been a few years now, but in my day on recovery, there was no legal definition of exactly what a trailer is in the context of a vehicle on a spec lift.
Please, don’t tell me what your opinion is, or even what you assume to be the law.
Show me the law that points to what can or cannot be carried on a spec lift.
You will not get that but you can get what constitutes a motor vehicle and if that is ON the road then it has to conform to motor vehicle laws
ON means any part of it on the road - see the RTA for that
marlow:
Yesterday I loaded waste cans in Manchester and grossed at 43’800kgs. I reversed the trailer off the weighbridge and weighed the unit at 22’300kgs so the trailer in this case weighed 21’500kgs and yet the load weighed 29 ton
No, the trailer still weighed something in the region of 36000kg, just because only 21500kg of that is imposed on the road via the wheels it doesn’t make the trailer any lighter.
marlow:
My point is that the rigid is carrying part of the load and the trailer i.e if pulled over an axel weigh bridge would weigh <750kgs.
The fact that the trailer imposes part of its load on the towing vehicle and part of it on the road via its wheels doesn’t make it any lighter, at the end of the day if the car weighs a ton it is still a ton trailer and therefore still technically needs brakes.
Paul
I think you are wrong, technically a speclift is in the same class as an underlift so for recovery brakes are not required
every time i have been on the back of a wrecker underlift loaded or empty the air supply to the broken down vehicle is to keep the brakes off
in the case of a spec lift as in the pics i am sure the weight of the car is added to the truck so no brakes req and even if they were it would make sod all difference as the brakes on the truck would be more than up to the job anyway!
I’ve often wondered this too as a salvage yard I buy from uses the same configuration, a rigid carrying 5/6/7 cars and another on the spec.
Its clearly over 750kg, the proportion of which is on the road and the proportion which is nose weight isn’t important.
Therefore it needs brakes. I can see that it may be exempt for removal to a place of safety but in the first post they’re not unsafe being brand new and presumably otherwise mobile.
While we’re asking multiple questions, can anyone answer this for me, if a car is towed to a salvage yard on a spec or similar like a dolly, that is recovery. If I then buy the car and attempt to leave with it, is that still recovery? I’ve met operators who think it is and happily leave the yard with cars they’ve bought being towed overweight. One I spoke to said its still recovery because the car was still immobile so its still recovery. I wasn’t sure the law make the distinction.
Doesn’t affect me as I always do a full lift anyway, but I’d be curious to hear from anyone who operates as to which exemption they’re relying on.
orys:
I had a wee job recently moving one of car transporters similar to these, empty:
flat to the mat:
LOL , so are you saying you moved it anyway without clarifying legalities ? I thought this country was where the cowboys lived ■■
I highlighted the word you ignored in that first post, so you should be able to see it now.
An empty 4 wheeler rigid is an empty 4 wheeler rigid whatever body is fitted. Its driver therefore requires a cat C licence.
Foot & Mouth disease ?
marlow:
I don’t dispute that Rog. I think you missed the point I was trying to make.
Yesterday I loaded waste cans in Manchester and grossed at 43’800kgs. I reversed the trailer off the weighbridge and weighed the unit at 22’300kgs so the trailer in this case weighed 21’500kgs and yet the load weighed 29 ton
My point is that the rigid is carrying part of the load and the trailer i.e if pulled over an axel weigh bridge would weigh <750kgs.
If I follow your logic then my trailer on the wagon would be overweight.
Just a theory but remember it all sounds different in court
I see exactly what you are saying too, and I think the thing with motorhomes and those silly French cars has come from France. The Aixam weighs about the same as a box of Weetabix and it is probably the French protecting their car industry from those SMART Krauts.
I realise you do this with your bus and the French would probably do you for your radiator mountings being overloaded with a motorbike
Moose:
I think you are wrong, technically a speclift is in the same class as an underlift so for recovery brakes are not required
We’re not talking about recovery though, we’re talking about moving cars (roadworthy or otherwise) in planned moves from one place to another using a vehicle of the type shown in the original post.
For recovery I have no doubt that they are legal, as you correctly say brakes are not required.
Moose:
in the case of a spec lift as in the pics i am sure the weight of the car is added to the truck so no brakes req and even if they were it would make sod all difference as the brakes on the truck would be more than up to the job anyway!
I’ve no doubt that technically it is safe and the brakes on the truck are more than up to the job but unless someone can convince me otherwise I’m still quite sure that for vehicle movements that do not class as recovery they are not legal as it counts as a trailer over 750kg so requiring brakes.
repton:
I’ve no doubt that technically it is safe and the brakes on the truck are more than up to the job but unless someone can convince me otherwise I’m still quite sure that for vehicle movements that do not class as recovery they are not legal as it counts as a trailer over 750kg so requiring brakes.
As Mr Repton says, it’s not the spec lift that’s exempt from braking regs, it’s the complete vehicle.
A vehicle fitted with a spec lift may or may not be exempt from trailer braking regs depending on the truck.
A recovery vehicle, a road recovery vehicle and a specialised breakdown vehicle (which all have separate legal meanings) are exempt from trailer braking regs.
There is a specific piece of legislation (recovery vehicle - prescribed purpose) that states the number of cars a recovery vehicle can carry is 2. Carrying more than 2 cars and it doesn’t constitute a recovery vehicle, it is a haulage vehicle, and should be taxed as such. As a haulage vehicle it doesn’t qualify for the trailer braking exemption applied to recovery vehicles.
Which is why, as per my earlier post, I can’t see how a logistics vehicle/transporter, can legally use a speclift.
The law surrounding recovery vehicles is all laid out, and it’s something I’m well versed on. If you require chapter and verse, I can provide it!
Cut the car in half at the B-pillar weld a length of steel box section long ways to the underside and bolt a tow hitch to the other end and stick a light board on the back.
Then chuck the cut off front half of the car in the back of your 3.5t+ rigid and hook your newly made trailer to the ball hitch.
This newly built combination is totally legal and would be no different, from a driver ability point of view, to drive than with a spec-lift. Also if pulled it would generate exactly the same axle weight results on a weighbridge. I really do think that provided the combination you’re driving’s unbraked trailing axle does not produce a result over 750kg they’d struggle to prosecute you for anything under either licensing, C&U or loading. On a police/VOSA roadside pull I have only ever seen vehicle and trailer axle weights measured in combination, I’ve never seen an attempt to measure a net trailer weight separately from the tow vehicle.
Is there any examples of a successful prosecution of driving unlicensed for a C only category holder with a vehicle on a spec-lift?
Own Account Driver:
Cut the car in half at the B-pillar weld a length of steel box section long ways to the underside and bolt a tow hitch to the other end and stick a light board on the back.
Then chuck the cut off front half of the car in the back of your 3.5t+ rigid and hook your newly made trailer to the ball hitch.
This newly built combination is totally legal and would be no different, from a driver ability point of view, to drive than with a spec-lift. Also if pulled it would generate exactly the same axle weight results on a weighbridge. I really do think that provided the combination you’re driving’s unbraked trailing axle does not produce a result over 750kg they’d struggle to prosecute you for anything under either licensing, C&U or loading. On a police/VOSA roadside pull I have only ever seen vehicle and trailer axle weights measured in combination, I’ve never seen an attempt to measure a net trailer weight separately from the tow vehicle.
Is there any examples of a successful prosecution of driving unlicensed for a C only category holder with a vehicle on a spec-lift?
they don’t need to weigh it, gvw of the car is all the need
Own Account Driver:
Cut the car in half at the B-pillar weld a length of steel box section long ways to the underside and bolt a tow hitch to the other end and stick a light board on the back.
Then chuck the cut off front half of the car in the back of your 3.5t+ rigid and hook your newly made trailer to the ball hitch.
This newly built combination is totally legal and would be no different, from a driver ability point of view, to drive than with a spec-lift. Also if pulled it would generate exactly the same axle weight results on a weighbridge. I really do think that provided the combination you’re driving’s unbraked trailing axle does not produce a result over 750kg they’d struggle to prosecute you for anything under either licensing, C&U or loading. On a police/VOSA roadside pull I have only ever seen vehicle and trailer axle weights measured in combination, I’ve never seen an attempt to measure a net trailer weight separately from the tow vehicle.
Is there any examples of a successful prosecution of driving unlicensed for a C only category holder with a vehicle on a spec-lift?
Yes, I’ve known of two such prosecutions, though I’m struggling to find them online at the mo.
I hate to pish on your otherwise perfect logic , but there is already case law which states that a vehicle which has been turned into a trailer, is still considered to be a vehicle, not a trailer. This case was in reference to a prosecution for overloading, where a car had been made into a trailer roughly in the manner you describe. The car had a plate fitted, and the weights on the plate had been exceeded.
The defendant’s argument was that the car’s plate is no longer relevant, because it’s no longer a car, it’s now a trailer. The prosecution argued (successfully), that even though the car had been turned into a trailer is irrelevant, it is still a car, albeit used for different purpose. It still has a manufacturers GVW plate, and that had been exceeded. So the fact it was being used for a trailer doesn’t detract the fact it is, essentially, a car.
, but there is already case law which states that a vehicle which has been turned into a trailer, is still considered to be a vehicle, not a trailer. This case was in reference to a prosecution for overloading, where a car had been made into a trailer roughly in the manner you describe. The car had a plate fitted, and the weights on the plate had been exceeded.