Hi All
its been a while since my last confession…lol
I have a quick question, if I want to use a TIR Carnet to collect goods in France, the company O licence holder is in uk, where does the Carnet have to originate, and where to get the Carnet stamped before leaving EU, ie before heading out to required border.
When ive used TIR carnet before its been a case of load uk, get carnet stamped at Ashford, then on to the required EU border.
Scenario is this, transport Dept is currently in UK, Goods are in Paris France, onward transport to Russia…possibly…
So I know i need :
I may be proven wrong, But i think you can use a carnet supplied in the UK anywhere in Europe.
But i think a permit is usually usued from the country of the origin of the goods.
i’ve only used the odd permit over the apst several years. we don’t have carnets as we didn’t go out of the EU offen enough.
UnionJack:
Hi All
its been a while since my last confession…lol
I have a quick question, if I want to use a TIR Carnet to collect goods in France, the company O licence holder is in uk, where does the Carnet have to originate, and where to get the Carnet stamped before leaving EU, ie before heading out to required border.
When ive used TIR carnet before its been a case of load uk, get carnet stamped at Ashford, then on to the required EU border.
Scenario is this, transport Dept is currently in UK, Goods are in Paris France, onward transport to Russia…possibly…
So I know i need :
You will need origional invoices & a CMR, do You have an ECMT book ? On the owner operators forum there is a thread along these lines mentioning bilateral permits etc I would maybe take a look at that, I would also be taking your log book & of course a current Russian visa, I suppose depending on whats convienient as to where You start your carnet really & which border Your leaving The EU at. I used to always had an International driving licence too one of those AA things with Your picture in & translations in it. Check the other forum out most of My knowledge is out of date…
If you cross into Russia directly from an EU country then surely you can run it on manifest and not ponce around with Carnets and all the rest of it No Carnet TIR and you don’t need a GV60, the hassle of that, or lack of, is reason enough I reckon
newmercman:
If you cross into Russia directly from an EU country then surely you can run it on manifest and not ponce around with Carnets and all the rest of it No Carnet TIR and you don’t need a GV60, the hassle of that, or lack of, is reason enough I reckon
I would have thought of that eventually.
It is then only one translation and they all speak bloody Russian in the Baltic states.
But in answer to the question, the TIR Carnet will normally be issued in the country where you have your admin and money and an account with the RHA or similar Hence the reason why we would carry a new blank carnet for the backloads.
much less hassle to get the carnet opened at the customs of the point of origin of the cargo (paris). yes you can open the carnet on the border or possibly even use a manifest to declare the goods, but not if your objective is to get the cargo to russia any time this century.
newmercman:
If you cross into Russia directly from an EU country then surely you can run it on manifest and not ponce around with Carnets and all the rest of it No Carnet TIR and you don’t need a GV60, the hassle of that, or lack of, is reason enough I reckon
No,No,No…dont do that!
Carnets were created to simplify the process- they hold the customs guarantee for the load.(up to a maximum amount)
Without one you have to charge around freight forwarders and pay them to guarantee the load- that can be a dear job. It takes a while which is why trucks on carnets were normally put in a different lane . T1 trucks always used to be a big cause of border queues;T.I.R is much faster, Cheaper and simpler. With a carnet they wont need to put you on the ramp to get sealed/ resealed (even more time)…and while they’re at it do a ‘revision’ i.e. checking the load (even more time). A carnet load can be sealed in France and left alone until you finally clear in Russia.
You either have a G.V.60 for the trailer or you don’t. If not, you can’t use a carnet anyway (unless you have I.S.O containers on or demount bodies with a customs plate).
If you don’t. Get your T-form in france.
milodon:
much less hassle to get the carnet opened at the customs of the point of origin of the cargo (paris). yes you can open the carnet on the border or possibly even use a manifest to declare the goods, but not if your objective is to get the cargo to russia any time this century.
As Milodon said, manifesting is an absolute minefield and the importer would have had to agree to it and possibly put up lots of money at the border - one other consideration you should take into account is if some bright spark on the Russian side of the border tries it on because you are ‘Third Country’ if UK truck and Carnet started in France, not certain to crop up but it could, believe me!
And Malc, no - TIR was ‘always’ administered by RHA and FTA - AA and RAC issued only Carnets de Passage
jj72:
As Milodon said, manifesting is an absolute minefield and the importer would have had to agree to it and possibly put up lots of money at the border - one other consideration you should take into account is if some bright spark on the Russian side of the border tries it on because you are ‘Third Country’ if UK truck and Carnet started in France, not certain to crop up but it could, believe me!
And Malc, no - TIR was ‘always’ administered by RHA and FTA - AA and RAC issued only Carnets de Passage
As a customs union, all of the E.U is regarded in international law as a single customs entity. I opened a British carnet in Germany in the late 90’s so I have stumbled across this in the past. ECMT books (third country permits) will not be applicable to this journey at it involves a vehicle moving goods from it’s own customs area to another customs area. E.C.M.T would apply, for example,if he loaded in Russia for Ukraine because he is not a haulier from either of those countries (i.e a third country).
Some bright spark WILL try it on about something. Remember, they are an awkward lot, looking for any excuse to slow things down and ruin your day. If you don’t know the rules, they will make something up because you wont know any better.
newmercman:
If you cross into Russia directly from an EU country then surely you can run it on manifest and not ponce around with Carnets and all the rest of it No Carnet TIR and you don’t need a GV60, the hassle of that, or lack of, is reason enough I reckon
No,No,No…dont do that!
Carnets were created to simplify the process- they hold the customs guarantee for the load.(up to a maximum amount)
Without one you have to charge around freight forwarders and pay them to guarantee the load- that can be a dear job. It takes a while which is why trucks on carnets were normally put in a different lane . T1 trucks always used to be a big cause of border queues;T.I.R is much faster, Cheaper and simpler. With a carnet they wont need to put you on the ramp to get sealed/ resealed (even more time)…and while they’re at it do a ‘revision’ i.e. checking the load (even more time). A carnet load can be sealed in France and left alone until you finally clear in Russia.
You either have a G.V.60 for the trailer or you don’t. If not, you can’t use a carnet anyway (unless you have I.S.O containers on or demount bodies with a customs plate).
If you don’t. Get your T-form in france.
Could you not clear the load at the border and remove most of the hassle you describe That was my train of thought and would eliminate the need for guarantees etc
there are countries, where clearing the load at the border is straightforward and fast (croatia, serbia for example). and then there are countries where checking the load, waiting for the taxes to be paid by the receiver etc will take days. this is the procedure in russia, belorussia, ukraine, so a carnet is much, much easier. you pass through the border with a carnet and unload the cargo at a customs warehouse - carnet closed and the truck on the way back. after that, they can run the cargo through red tape for months if they please, you will be long gone.
milodon:
there are countries, where clearing the load at the border is straightforward and fast (croatia, serbia for example). and then there are countries where checking the load, waiting for the taxes to be paid by the receiver etc will take days. this is the procedure in russia, belorussia, ukraine, so a carnet is much, much easier. you pass through the border with a carnet and unload the cargo at a customs warehouse - carnet closed and the truck on the way back. after that, they can run the cargo through red tape for months if they please, you will be long gone.
Once again…absolutely spot on. Who were you on with?
Well Milodon, you certainly know your stuff. You’re better travelled than I am but I certainly did my share too.
I miss the old job very much…but time moves on I suppose
milodon:
there are countries, where clearing the load at the border is straightforward and fast (croatia, serbia for example). and then there are countries where checking the load, waiting for the taxes to be paid by the receiver etc will take days. this is the procedure in russia, belorussia, ukraine, so a carnet is much, much easier. you pass through the border with a carnet and unload the cargo at a customs warehouse - carnet closed and the truck on the way back. after that, they can run the cargo through red tape for months if they please, you will be long gone.
Having used a T form to the border, I can remember sitting for 4 days for an import clearance at La Jonquera before Spain joined the EU, so I understand what you mean. (That’s not a good thing when you’re on trip money. )
I’ve also done proper ‘open’ TIR, without a GV60 as mentioned by NMM. That can be a pain for the reasons you’ve given, and especially because it can be expensive to find somebody willing to use their customs guarantee for somebody they’ve never heard of. If this system is used, there can also be problems at the customs office of destination if the importer has used all of their money for clearances and is suffering cash-flow troubles. The other reason that I’ve encountered for a slow import clearance is that the agent will sometimes want to wait for proper permission to handle the importer’s money. The importer’s bank can also make life difficult.
Delays at the borders of transit countries might also happen, because each country might want the transit paperwork done in ‘their’ own way and they’d probably also want to inspect and tally up the load against the paperwork.
In my experience, the best way is to use a TIR carnet and deliver into a nominated bonded warehouse to be unloaded under customs’ supervision cos then any problems become local problems.
From a quick look at the DfT website, an ECMT permit can be used for third country work, such as a UK registered vehicle loading in France for delivery to Russia.
No Carnet TIR and you don’t need a GV60, the hassle of that, or lack of, is reason enough I reckon 
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