Throwing in the Towel

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS EX-PAT BRITISH TRUCKERS (INTERACTIVE)
41

On the road again:
The eg that contract driver gave came nowhere near that number of hours so his argument does not make sense, as he himself stated he had only used …quote “4 and a bit days” to get to Houston then sat for 2 days so why would he ever need a reset doing that?

Well no, he’d already be starting day 7 before leaving Houston so day 7 could be an 11.75, day 8 would be whatever is left and then day 9 would be the regained hours from day one, presumably an 11.75 or something up there.
But who the hell wants to sit in Houston for 2 days when you get paid by the mile, that’s a firk up, not something that should be a normal thing unless you’re getting properly paid for it, which this being North America he wont be, I’m guessing just a token gesture layover pay or nothing at all as would have been the case in my previous job. We all go to work to earn money and hopefully then enjoy the life we’ve built for ourselves here so doing maximum hours while away so that our earning potential is at its highest potential so that we can afford to have time off should be the order of the day. Bumming around doing 8.75 per day as the yanks do in many companies is nothing more than being a North American Willi Betz driver, earning sod all per day and never going home.

Obviously the average driver wont consistently be doing maximum hours every day, all the time to fall foul of this, or only doing 8.75 per day but its another unnecessary piece of bureaucracy that will adversely affect a lot of people. I would imagine there are at this very moment thousands of drivers in North America who are in violation purely because they don’t understand it. Most of the drivers at my previous firm haven’t even heard of it and are carrying on as before.

42

robinhood_1984:

On the road again:
The eg that contract driver gave came nowhere near that number of hours so his argument does not make sense, as he himself stated he had only used …quote “4 and a bit days” to get to Houston then sat for 2 days so why would he ever need a reset doing that?

Well no, he’d already be starting day 7 before leaving Houston so day 7 could be an 11.75, day 8 would be whatever is left and then day 9 would be the regained hours from day one, presumably an 11.75 or something up there.
But who the hell wants to sit in Houston for 2 days, that’s a firk up, not something that should be a normal thing unless you’re getting properly paid for it, which this being North America he wont be, I’m guessing just a token gesture layover pay or nothing at all as would have been the case in my previous job. We all go to work to earn money and hopefully then enjoy the life we’ve built for ourselves here so doing maximum hours while away so that our earning potential is at its highest potential so that we can afford to have time off should be the order of the day. Bumming around doing 8.75 per day as the yanks do in many companies is nothing more than being a North American Willi Betz driver, earning sod all per day and never going home.

Obviously the average driver wont consistently be doing maximum hours every day, all the time to fall foul of this, or only doing 8.75 per day but its another unnecessary piece of bureaucracy that will adversely affect a lot of people. I would imagine there are at this very moment thousands of drivers in North America who are in violation purely because they don’t understand it. Most of the drivers at my previous firm haven’t even heard of it and are carrying on as before.

He obviously did because thats what he stated he was doing ffs

43

The 36hr off and away again mob will be affected by the 168hr rule, which is exactly what was intended by the FMCSA :open_mouth:

They don’t want drivers working max hours and going again asap by having a single day off. That makes a mockery of the 70hrs in 8days rule, as you can work a lot more than 70 in 8 by resetting.

This is all about reducing fatigue and it does need addressing, look at some of the drivers that have been doing this all their life, they look twenty years old than they are. Truck driver life expectancy is also 12yrs lower than normal :cry:

And removing all that from the equation, who in their right mind wants to work through 70hrs, plus all the time on line one of the log book while being tipped/loaded/fudging the book and then have a day off and go and do it all again :unamused:

This attitude is exactly why we don’t get paid relative to our value, there’s always a bunch of idiots who can’t see the wood for the trees that are prepared to work ridiculously long hours to make a living :unamused:

If you do a job like the NB to ID run that our friend in tights described, then it should pay enough to the driver, regardless of how many days off the law requires you to take, if it doesn’t, then the job ain’t worth a cup of cold ■■■■. FACT :open_mouth:

44

newmercman:
The 36hr off and away again mob will be affected by the 168hr rule, which is exactly what was intended by the FMCSA :open_mouth:

They don’t want drivers working max hours and going again asap by having a single day off. That makes a mockery of the 70hrs in 8days rule, as you can work a lot more than 70 in 8 by resetting.

This is all about reducing fatigue and it does need addressing, look at some of the drivers that have been doing this all their life, they look twenty years old than they are. Truck driver life expectancy is also 12yrs lower than normal :cry:

And removing all that from the equation, who in their right mind wants to work through 70hrs, plus all the time on line one of the log book while being tipped/loaded/fudging the book and then have a day off and go and do it all again :unamused:

This attitude is exactly why we don’t get paid relative to our value, there’s always a bunch of idiots who can’t see the wood for the trees that are prepared to work ridiculously long hours to make a living :unamused:

If you do a job like the NB to ID run that our friend in tights described, then it should pay enough to the driver, regardless of how many days off the law requires you to take, if it doesn’t, then the job ain’t worth a cup of cold ■■■■. FACT :open_mouth:

Pat :question: :wink:

45

newmercman:
who in their right mind wants to work through 70hrs, plus all the time on line one of the log book while being tipped/loaded/fudging the book and then have a day off and go and do it all again :unamused:

This attitude is exactly why we don’t get paid relative to our value, there’s always a bunch of idiots who can’t see the wood for the trees that are prepared to work ridiculously long hours to make a living :unamused:

That’s exactly why i jacked.

It was written in my Canadian ‘contract’ :laughing: that I earnt $143.50 per day (plus mileage), i made money, company made money, had time to myself, I got home to see my family every 2 weeks, I was happy, then July 1st the boss removed my $143.50 guarantee and increased the miles to 45c per mile, telling me i was getting mileage only because we will be sitting around more with the new rules and the new 10 Canadian drivers he ‘poached’ from another company were happy with only 45c per mile… they made my ‘fudging’ look amateurish, 20 hour a day ‘heros’ and they all seem happy to sit around ‘unpaid’ for days on end. :laughing:

I have my Canadian Class 1, my airbrakes ticket, my Hasmat, knowledge and Terminology of the job for Canada and the US, my Canadian SIN number, Canadian bank account, Canadian credit card and a good Canadian credit rating…

There are loads of low paid ‘semi skilled’ professional long haul ‘hero’ driver jobs available in Canada and there are loads of well paid ‘other’ good driving LMO jobs in Canada… i have collected lots of info while i was there… and have made lot’s of good contacts… i will be back, but probably not as a driver! :wink:

The LMO rules say’s the boss must pay for my home flight ($1600 dollars), i have just sent the bill!

46

newmercman:
If you do a job like the NB to ID run that our friend in tights described, then it should pay enough to the driver, regardless of how many days off the law requires you to take, if it doesn’t, then the job ain’t worth a cup of cold ■■■■. FACT :open_mouth:

I’m not talking about what should be, I’m talking about what is. As for fatigue and the sensibility of the law, that’s a joke when in the US you can work 7 days a week, 365 days a year by doing 8.75 per day.

I really don’t see how someone doing 11.75 per day and having 10 or so hours off every night, then having 36 hours off before returning homeward and then having a few days off is more fatigued than a homeless yank half wit on for Prime who’s spent the past 42 days on duty but worked a few less hours each day according to his log book, when in all likely hood his driving + on duty may only come to 8.75 but with all his pratting about on loading docks waiting 6 hours at each place for his reefer to be tipped or loaded he’s quite likely doing 12-14 actual hours per day, longer than someone on a long haul trip who does nothing but drive for 4 or 5 days. Yet he’s safe and not taking the ■■■■ of 70/8 and I am.

47

I agree to a point, but there are lots of people that don’t work for Prime et all, who max out their books every day, take a quick 36 off then hit it hard again, week in, week out.

These are the people the FMCSA are trying to control and as always there are unfortunate consequences for those that only use the reset every now and then.

But, it is what it is, you’ve got to work around it, if you can’t, then get a job where you can, it’s that simple.

When tachos & their associated laws were introduced in Europe they had a similar effect, the job had to change, some like Contractdriver’s old boss just found a load of mugs to carry on for less money and more time away, other firms turned into better jobs because of it.

If I was in Contractdriver’s position I would look for another job, but I’ve been here five years, if I had just got off a plane however, I’d be getting back on another one sharpish and put it down to experience.

There’s a lesson to be learned from all this, all that glitters is not gold, sometimes it’s just a big turd sprinkled in gold dust :wink:

48

On the road again:
The eg that contract driver gave came nowhere near that number of hours so his argument does not make sense, as he himself stated he had only used …quote “4 and a bit days” to get to Houston then sat for 2 days so why would he ever need a reset doing that?

Because you are NOT allowed to take a reset when you want ! It as to be no earlier than 168 hours after the previous start of your reset so he can’t just take the reset at that time… What about that do you not understand ?
It would mean he never got a reset at home for months.

49

]
Because you are NOT allowed to take a reset when you want ! It as to be no earlier than 168 hours after the previous start of your reset so he can’t just take the reset at that time… What about that do you not understand ?
It would mean he never got a reset at home for months.
[/quote]
Well I only just got it… when you say it like that it is so obvious…

50

Pat Hasler:

On the road again:
The eg that contract driver gave came nowhere near that number of hours so his argument does not make sense, as he himself stated he had only used …quote “4 and a bit days” to get to Houston then sat for 2 days so why would he ever need a reset doing that?

Because you are NOT allowed to take a reset when you want ! It as to be no earlier than 168 hours after the previous start of your reset so he can’t just take the reset at that time… What about that do you not understand ?
It would mean he never got a reset at home for months.

Don’t get your knickers in a twist Pat, where did I mention a reset and what don’t you understand about recapping whether you need a reset or not :unamused: :unamused:
He loads Tuesday arrives in Houston Friday and delivers Monday, where in that example THAT HE GAVE does he require a reset :question:

51

cliffystephens:
]
Because you are NOT allowed to take a reset when you want ! It as to be no earlier than 168 hours after the previous start of your reset so he can’t just take the reset at that time… What about that do you not understand ?
It would mean he never got a reset at home for months.

Well I only just got it… when you say it like that it is so obvious…
[/quote]
No reset required but you can still take a days rest to allow your hours to catch up but Pat doesn’t understand that because peoplenet doesn’t tell him :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

52

His main problem is that if he take’s the time off and takes time with his family he can’t earn enough when paid by the mile to pay his bills. Unlike a lot of truck happy drivers he is like me, he puts his family first. There is no room in todays society for being behind on your bills. On this continent nobody has sympathy for anyone who falls on hard times. His company had been paying a minimum wage every fortnight but withdrew it when the new hours came into force. I fully understand why he is moving on, if my company did the same I would be away to another job ASAP.

53

Pat Hasler:
His main problem is that if he take’s the time off and takes time with his family he can’t earn enough when paid by the mile to pay his bills. Unlike a lot of truck happy drivers he is like me, he puts his family first. There is no room in todays society for being behind on your bills. On this continent nobody has sympathy for anyone who falls on hard times. His company had been paying a minimum wage every fortnight but withdrew it when the new hours came into force. I fully understand why he is moving on, if my company did the same I would be away to another job ASAP.

So what you’re saying now is that it’s nothing to do with the new HOS (since we have established that in his example he didn’t even need a reset) but a crap job and employer :open_mouth:

54

On the road again:

Pat Hasler:
His main problem is that if he take’s the time off and takes time with his family he can’t earn enough when paid by the mile to pay his bills. Unlike a lot of truck happy drivers he is like me, he puts his family first. There is no room in todays society for being behind on your bills. On this continent nobody has sympathy for anyone who falls on hard times. His company had been paying a minimum wage every fortnight but withdrew it when the new hours came into force. I fully understand why he is moving on, if my company did the same I would be away to another job ASAP.

So what you’re saying now is that it’s nothing to do with the new HOS (since we have established that in his example he didn’t even need a reset) but a crap job and employer :open_mouth:

That is exactly what I see :laughing:

The changes to the job, like the removal of the guaranteed day rate etc coincided with the changes to the HOS, so really it has SFA to do with them, the unscrupulous boss is just using them as a convenient excuse to ■■■■ his drivers over :unamused:

As for Pat’s unpaid bills situation, again that has SFA to do with HOS, that is because you’re either bad at money management, or you have too many outgoings, if you budget your outgoings on your maximum earnings then it’s a recipe for disaster :bulb:

If working maximum hours is the only way to keep your head above water, you either need to spend a little less, or you have a ■■■■ job, or a combination of both :open_mouth:

The same applies to time at home, it needs to be factored in as you earn SFA when the lorry is parked, if you can’t afford to take time off, you spend too much, or you have a ■■■■ job, or a combination of both :open_mouth:

All this blame game BS is denial, it doesn’t matter how much you earn, as long as you spend less than that, you’ll be in a decent financial position :bulb:

55

From my limited experince on that side of the pond it seems it will affect firms who think its acceptable to sit drivers for a day or two between loads.
For example on flying eagle other that one regular run that they had doing multi drop down to Florida you could get from the yard back to Canada within your 70 with ease which is an advantage of been mb based.
They generally had a reloaded sorted for you when you were tipped and often it was possible to get it the same day so no sitting about and you got a reset at base every week.

56

My gripe with all this has nothing to do with budgeting and not being able to pay bills or even the money I earn for the miles that I do, its the additional unpaid waiting time I’d have had on an Idaho or similar trip. Before I’d of had 36 hours of unpaid downtime away from family, now it will be 72 hours of unjustifiable unpaid down time spent away from home and family but with no financial reward. I’ll still earn the same thing for the trip, but the trip will take longer so my average wage will go down when calculated by the time it takes, while the time it takes will go up. I go away to earn money to have a standard of life when I am home, I don’t go away to sit around in truckstops and be a North American Willi Betz.

A lot of my previous work was in the 4000km range each way and thats where the biggest hit will now be. Its too far to do a round trip in a 70 but its not far enough to eat up 70 in one hit like a 5500km trip from NB to Oregon would be and because the return trip cannot me made within the 70, the company will not give you a load until it can be completed as the shipper/receiver want their goods delivered promptly after loading, rather than 1000km per day + 36 hour reset before reaching destination. This may well be a company problem and how they’re doing things but as their driver (former driver) I’d be the one sitting in Idaho for days on end waiting for 168 + 36 for no wages. I don’t believe I’d have been an isolated incident, this is how most North American firms carry on, unfortunately we don’t all work for Brandt or Foodliner and get paid for our time, only the miles we run.

In my opinion the biggest problem in North American trucking is mileage based pay for company employees. Until this system is addressed and replaced with something that pays an employee a wage that reflects their time spent at work like any other member of society the job will never get any better and I think it will just get worse and worse as the screws are tightened with new laws so that earning potential is squeezed. I think a set day rate + mileage bonus would be the way forward. Every one seems pre occupied with the symptoms of how drivers get paid, ie long hours, re-writing log books and the danger that that produces but no one seems prepared to tackle the root cause. Not address mileage only based pay is nothing more than rubbing moisturising cream on the skin above a broken arm.

57

kr79:
From my limited experince on that side of the pond it seems it will affect firms who think its acceptable to sit drivers for a day or two between loads.
For example on flying eagle other that one regular run that they had doing multi drop down to Florida you could get from the yard back to Canada within your 70 with ease which is an advantage of been mb based.
They generally had a reloaded sorted for you when you were tipped and often it was possible to get it the same day so no sitting about and you got a reset at base every week.

Drivers who sit around for a day or two between reloads will by default bump forward a day or two on their 70 with 0 hours showing for those days so will have plenty left and will be able to carry on by recapping. Its those of us who dont sit around for days and generally do 4000km one way trips and do 1000+ km per day that will be affected as we can’t get back again but no one will load us knowing that to get to destination we’ll have to sit in a truckstop 2 and a half days down the road, with their load on our back, having a reset and delaying their delivery by 36 hours. Until July 1st we’d have a quick 36 in Idaho, nip round to the reload and then proceed right back to Canada. Now we can’t. Even if we had 36 off and didn’t class it as a reset, we’d still bounce up against 70 hours before reaching destination and have to wait more than a day for the end of day 8 to regain time from day 1.

The only way for the job to pay now on long haul is to do trips where you can actually make it back within your 70 or do trips that are so long that you basically need a reset when you get to your delivery any way. A 4000km outbound trip now just leaves you sitting in dead water if the return trip is 4000km right back as it cannot be promptly completed by either a reset or recapping without incurring a 72 hour delay rather than the former 36 and who wants to sit any where for 36 hours for no money, let alone 72.

As things stand now, on an Idaho trip and I use this as my example because its what I used to do. You’d have to have 3 days at home before the trip and for the start of that 3 days to be legally reconised as the start of your reset (which of course will depends on when all previous resets started), then do the 4 days out there, 3 + 4 periods of 24 hours is 168 and then start a reset as soon as you arrived. Thats not a problem for me, I prefer being at home than in a truck but as we all know, its not always possible to have that long off before a trip.

58

Me bloody 'eads done in with all this ! :open_mouth: :confused:

I’m glad i’m just a lowly old trolley driver :wink: :wink: :laughing:

Charles

59

remy:
Me bloody 'eads done in with all this ! :open_mouth: :confused:

I’m glad i’m just a lowly old trolley driver :wink: :wink: :laughing:

Charles

I meant to ask before. Do you ever deliver to the Walmart in Newport, Maine? Thats the usual haunt for all of us Canadian Maritimes drivers to get our shopping heading south.

60

Robinhood, now you mention mileage pay as the root cause of the problem, on that we agree, but you yourself, like far too many others, are part of the problem too :open_mouth:

You say that on your Idaho trips you had to sit for 36hrs in Idaho to make sure you had a clean book to start again on the homeward leg so the goods could keep rolling, so you sat for 36hrs unpaid.

Now this ■■■■■■ you off, 36hrs without pay is outrageous, to be expected to double that to at least 72hrs is twice as bad.

But, you spent 36hrs unpaid every trip without doing anything about it, yes you may be disgusted by it and have an opinion you shared on here. But, you never actually did anything about it, you can blame the Canadians for making it standard practice if you like, but you ain’t Canadian, yet you still sat unpaid for 36hrs every time you went to Idaho :open_mouth:

Now I understand that you cannot start a one man crusade, I also know that the situation is different in The Maritimes, so you never had much choice other than to not drive trucks, but by accepting the situation you perpetuate it, nothing will ever change unless drivers stand up for themselves, so in summary nothing will change EVER :unamused:

This is an ideal opportunity for drivers to stand their ground and resolve some of the issues they have, but on the other hand, do all drivers face the same issues?

On the road again, nianiamh, martynp, flysheet and I all work at different firms, we all go on the clock when delayed at a shipper/receiver, we all get paid waiting/layovers/resets on the road. I run Canada only, so it doesn’t affect me, but none of them have run into trouble with the new reset rules yet :open_mouth:

A coincidence?

Not so much I think :bulb: