The law regarding drivers hours

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

I have been in dispute with my employer about driving hours and id like some clarification on where i stand, ill try and explain my working day as clearly as i can and whats happened up until now.

I drive a van from Birmingham to London to deliver food goods to restaurants etc around central london. I drive a short wheelbase Transit van (3.5t, no tachograph) and usually leave at around 7am, depending how many drops i have i sometimes dont get back to Bath until 7 or 8pm. Some days i can have 27 drops which i can calculate an estimate time for my route and itll be 12 or 13 hours.

I brought this up with my boss, I emailed him a link to the gov.uk site which shows the driving hours rules, and also sent him a link to the VOSA CIS/2171 pdf which goes into more detail about driving hours.

As i understand it from these rules, the Domestic Rules apply, you are not allowed to drive a goods vehicle for more than 10 hours a day (plus one hour of loading) regardless of weight category.
My boss however has gone off to some employment lawyer who has come back and said that the rules dont apply to our vans, and to carry on as we are. This just seems wholly incorrect, why would there be zero regulations for van drivers to go flying around however much they want? It just seems implausible.

I dont know where I stand now, I havent been given any actual proof by my boss that overrides the legislation, as far as I know this lawyer could have found a way for my boss to get away with it, and the liability would fall at my feet. Yet I dont want to be breaking the law, or endangering lives on the motorway. But if i turn round and refuse to do so many hours, he may fire me.
It seems to me that there is a strict enforcement of vehicles 7.5t+ for driving hours, but there is nothing that stops ordinary van drivers from breaking these rules with little or no consequence.

Is there an official way of getting this enforced without me falling foul of the law or falling foul of my boss? Maybe i could get someone from the DVSA to phone or email clear guidance to me or my employer?

Any helpful information would great…
thanks,
A

2

We have stopped using so many vans for this “10 hours duty time” thingy is it? Shame as I quite liked a spin down to Penzance and back in a day instead of overnighting. I assume this is the (rather bizarre to me) law. Anyone care to clarify?

3

gov.uk/drivers-hours/goods-vehicles

GB domestic rules

GB domestic rules apply if both the following are true:

the maximum permissible weight of your vehicle or vehicle combination is under 3.5 tonnes

your vehicle is exempt from EU rules when driven in the UK

4

You’re under UK domestic regulations if the MAM of the vehicle does not exceed 3.5t.

As you’re driving a vehicle that does not exceed 3.5t MAM you’re driving under UK domestic regulations.

You can legally drive for 10 hours in any 24 hour period and your maximum duty time is legally 11 hours in any 24 hour period.

I’m not aware of any exemptions from UK domestic regulations that would apply to your job.

As for getting the regulations enforced without falling foul of your boss, you could contact the DVSA without giving them information of where you work, just ask the question and say it’s just a general enquiry.

5

Bit of Googling and found this: keepmeontheroad.co.uk/drivers-hours/

Don’t know if it’s of any use.

6

Update: so I’ve rung the DVSA and asked them for clarification.

They inform me that I fall under GB Domestic Rules, and if caught not only myself, but the company/boss will be held to account.

I’m going to tell my boss this, but I know he isn’t going to accept it, I’m unsure if what to do next…?

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acid_clown:
Update: so I’ve rung the DVSA and asked them for clarification.

They inform me that I fall under GB Domestic Rules, and if caught not only myself, but the company/boss will be held to account.

I’m going to tell my boss this, but I know he isn’t going to accept it, I’m unsure if what to do next…?

Did you ask the DVSA to send you an email with that information :question:

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As ROG has intimated at ask the DVSA to send you the information in email form, you then have something in writing to show your boss.

If he still ignores it your only options are to continue as you are and lie about your starting time if you get stopped or leave the job, if you’ve been there long enough I would think you would have a good case for tribunal.

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If you like the job then just keep going as you are. How ever be very careful going against your boss on this as you may be sacked or got rid of. So many companies on vand flout The rules left right and centre as there isn’t any form apart fro. Time sheets to back up any thing. Unless the cans are tracked. Personally if your getting paid by the hr id just carry on not trying to scare you just putting a realistic version

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Get boss to give you what they are saying about the laws IN WRITING on company letter head paper

If boss believes they are right then they will do that

11

Thanks for the wise words as ever.

This is misleading to my pedantic mind:- gov.uk/drivers-hours/goods-vehicles when it states “GB domestic rules apply if both the following are true” (my bold) which implies to me that as well as the MAM being < 3.5t the vehicle has to be on the EU rules exemptions list as well. Surely to be unambiguous it should state “either” rather than “both”? I would rather opt to be under EU regs, if they give me more time for a long trip with under a tonne of goods in a van, but am unable to.

I suppose the quoted line could be interpreted as “both separately” looking back on it IYKWIM.

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Snudger:
Thanks for the wise words as ever.

This is misleading to my pedantic mind:- gov.uk/drivers-hours/goods-vehicles when it states “GB domestic rules apply if both the following are true” (my bold) which implies to me that as well as the MAM being < 3.5t the vehicle has to be on the EU rules exemptions list as well. Surely to be unambiguous it should state “either” rather than “both”? I would rather opt to be under EU regs, if they give me more time for a long trip with under a tonne of goods in a van, but am unable to.

I suppose the quoted line could be interpreted as “both separately” looking back on it IYKWIM.

I would never rely entirely on the wording on that website, the .gov website is useful but it’s only a guide to the regulations.

You’re right though, it should read either rather than both.

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GV262 will be your best friend [emoji6]

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Well, according to the law, there is a loophole…

I’ve been shown by my employer’s lawyer that you can drive as many hours under the sun as you like.

To be covered by EU drivers hours rules, the vehicle needs to be over 3,500kg as I’m driving a van, the EU rules don’t cover my vehicle.
So…
To be covered by the GB domestic drivers hours rules, the vehicle has to be both of the following:

  1. Under 3,500kg MAM
    And
  2. Exempt from EU regulations.

There is no exemption under EU rules for vehicles under 3.5t, so there are effectively no regulations to drivers hours for vans!

The lawyer has shown me 4 separate examples of court cases that have proved this over and over again.

So there you have it, surprising, but true!

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acid_clown:
Well, according to the law, there is a loophole…

I’ve been shown by my employer’s lawyer that you can drive as many hours under the sun as you like.
I would recommend that your employer finds a new lawyer or you find a new boss, or simply stop listening to him, whichever is the most convenient.

To be covered by EU drivers hours rules, the vehicle needs to be over 3,500kg as I’m driving a van, the EU rules don’t cover my vehicle.
So…
To be covered by the GB domestic drivers hours rules, the vehicle has to be both of the following:

  1. Under 3,500kg MAM
    And
  2. Exempt from EU regulations.
    There does not have to be an exemption mentioned in the EU regulations, why would there be an exemption mentioned for vehicles who’s weight does not qualify them to be in-scope of EU regulations.

A vehicle who’s MAM does not exceed 3.5t is exempt from the EU regulations simply because it’s weight is too low to come in-scope of them

There is no exemption under EU rules for vehicles under 3.5t, so there are effectively no regulations to drivers hours for vans!
There doesn’t need to be, see above.

The lawyer has shown me 4 separate examples of court cases that have proved this over and over again.
Post links to the cases that the lawyer has shown you then, if you don’t have links post the case numbers.

So there you have it, surprising, but true!

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There does not have to be an exemption mentioned in the EU regulations, why would there be an exemption mentioned for vehicles who’s weight does not qualify them to be in-scope of EU regulations.

There isn’t an exemption mentioned in the EU rules, that’s the point.
I’ll try and show you how it was explained to me.
First of all, there is the EU drivers hours rules.
EU drivers hours rules only apply to vehicles over 3,500kg here:
Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - 1. EU and AETR rules on drivers’ hours - Guidance - GOV.UK - click overview for a brief explanation.

so there you can see that EU rules don’t limit vehicles under 3,500kg, so that includes me and my van.

now, if you look under the GB domestic hours:
Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - 2. Great Britain domestic rules on drivers' hours - Guidance - GOV.UK - click overview…

you can see that these rules “apply to most goods vehicles that are exempt from the EU rules”

now, if you go back to the EU rules, you will see that there is no exemption for “a van”. There is a long list of exemptions, but not one of them applies to a van, and being as a van is under 3,500kg, EU rules dont apply either!

If you go back to the link further back in this thread you will see that the goverment themselves spell it out:

EU rules apply if the maximum permissible weight of your vehicle or vehicle combination is more than 3.5 tonnes - That doesnt include a van.

GB domestic rules apply if both the following are true: 1. the maximum permissible weight of your vehicle or vehicle combination is under 3.5 tonnes, and 2. your vehicle is exempt from EU rules when driven in the UK - well, the first part is true, but the 2nd isnt true. it needs to be both.

so, under Domestic Rules, a van would be subject to drivers hours regs, but because of the way law works, EU law overrides UK law whenever there is a conflict, therefore EU law applies to ALL vehicles within the UK unless there is an exemption within EU rules, and being as there is no exemption for a van under 3,500kg, EU law applies, and being as EU law applies, there is no restrictions on vehicles under 3,500kg except those mentioned explicitly under EU exemptions. Which is why the vehicle needs to be both under 3,500kg AND exempt from EU rules for the Domestic rules to apply.

I will try and get the case numbers, but if she wants money, im not paying it! Alternatively, you could provide some examples where there has been a prosecution for drivers hours offences, Id be amazed if you could find one.

17

The links you’ve posted are not to the regulations, all 3 links are to gv262 which is a guide to the regulations, you’re placing far to much emphasis on the wording of a guide.

Here are the EU regulations

Here are the UK domestic regulations

Mate you’re being taken for a mug by your employer, and frankly if a lawyer referred you to a guide rather than the actual regulations I would have to question the legitimacy of their qualifications.