The Infamous Driver Shortage

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
41

Benjie83:
Gotta say albion the new driver point you raised is exactly my issue with all industry as a whole, how is an inexperienced lad meant to get a shot if no one wants to give them one… Very sad, and can from what little life exp I have, destroy a person before their even started which is something this government should be ashamed of.

Albion I will be in touch before the decade is out, or before I run out if cushions…anyone know where NEXT keep their soft furnishings warehouse? :laughing:

TBH though Benjie, there’s always been a problem with companies willing to take on lack of experience/young drivers, it’s not a modern phenomenon. But pretty much everyone who is driving now, had that problem to start with - exceptions being if your Dad runs the company :wink: .

And whilst my experience has been positive, I think it was xfmatt■■? who last year took on a young lad, who promptly managed to bump a car and take out an entire telegraph pole on the same day and then went for the biggie by turning the whole thing over. In the same week. You can see why some companies would be reluctant!

Anyway off to Next at Donny to check out some home furnishings, thanks for the interior design tips rottweiler :laughing:

42

Rottweiler22:
The new driver rhetoric is just sad. Complete catch-22, you need experience to get a job, but need a job to get experience. What frustrates me the most is when people say that you should do your LGV licence, and then “put it in a drawer and forget about it for two years, or until you’re 25”! It’s just ridiculous! I’ve driven a lorry nearly every day since September, and the amount of jobs that demand more experience than I have must be in the 70-80% mark. My dad passed his test in 1990, did one run, hated it, has never driven since, and he can apply for most jobs, purely because he’s held his licence for 26 years. I’ve driven more in a day, than my dad has in 26 years, and he still has the edge over me when it comes to applying for jobs: he could apply for almost anything, whereas I can only apply for maybe one in five jobs. The system is against you from the very start.

The point is, you can be as young as 19, and have the controls of a Boeing 737, carrying 200 people. You can be 24, and someone won’t let you drive their s*y Iveco, carrying pig s! If you look at it that way, it is absolutely mental!

Surely in 10-15 years time, when the bulk of Britain’s lorry drivers are reaching retirement age, and only a tiny handful of newcomers have taken the plunge, paid £3,000 for their licence, and decided to get into what is regarded as an “undesirable” career path, the real “shortage” will begin. Especially if Poland’s economy picks up, and a big percentage of Poles head home.

By the way, I know the exact location of where Next keep their cushions. Cough, Doncaster! :wink:

The situation with your Dad is daft - but I should imagine once he got an interview and they heard that, he’d not be getting any offers. I always suggest asking, particularly the small firms, for a job - don’t wait for an advert. As Juddian and a few others point out, you may just catch a break especially if you have all your kit with you.

43

There was an item on Radio Scotland about the driver shortage .When a new person passes his test he still has no commercial experience.There has to be a training regime even if that means taking some one out for a week to see how the job really gets done.

44

Passing your test is one thing but actually working in the industry is something completely different. ATL seem to be pretty good, although my lad drives through is agency they sent him out with another driver for a couple of days before letting him loose on the public by himself, so far so good, and they’ve done the same with his pal.

Its simple things like that that companies could do bring new drivers on and the experienced driver should be able to give feedback and prevent the nutjobs destroying things, the other thing is for planners to cut newbies a bit of slack take the pressure off and realise it’s going to take them a bit longer than old Joe, who’s been doing that run since Methuselah were a lad, the newbie will be up to speed in a few days. Another thing that would help would be if we could maybe take passengers on the odd day through the holidays, not so much the little tots but the ones at say 10+.

45

Part of the problem is that we no longer have transport people running transport in far too many cases.

In different days a young hopeful would knock on the door and ask for a job, you got the oldest most battered motor in the yard, day cab (you still did nights out) no power steering or power anything come to that, all loads were roped and sheeted, but if you were prepared to have a go and make the best of it, there was always an older driver who would take you under their wing and mentor you…they didn’t call it mentoring in those days but thats what it was, the company would try and send you out to run with that old hand as much as possible, the thing is it worked, you learned hands on.

If we still did things like this.

OK it won’t be ropes and sheets or old day cabbed Gardner engined fodder with crash boxes, but neither should it be all singing all dancing automated everything new premium tackle either, cos the new driver doesn’t learn anything about lorry driving by chauffering a large car (basically the modern lorry is no more difficult no heavier and requires no more skill) loaded by someone else and driving it to a loading dock where its unloaded by someone else.
If people had to rough it a little at first, straight away it would weed out the no hopers like the bloke who walked off the job cos of no satnav :unamused: as in ■■■■■’s current thread, then when they’ve proved themselves willing and able to have a go, give them to a trusted old hand to teach 'em proper like, and i don’t necessarily mean the modern driver trainer either who’s increasingly become a remote box ticking pedant who’s greatest thrill in life is bollocking you for an infringement and never but never actually teach anything bloody useful like how to control a bloody lorry, can’t think of any pedants here of course… :wink: :wink: but you get my drift.

46

boredwivdrivin:
Dolph how can there be a driver shortage when there is an oversupply of drivers ■■

And it is racist for you to suggest that you are superior as an immigrant to an immigrant from countries you dont happen to like .

You can spit the liberal democrat handbook as much as you like , but immigratiion should be controlled on the economies needs , and not on political stitch ups and discrimination .

And andrejs all immigrants should have to take UK driving test before they can work here . native driving licences are fine for holidays , but not for work .

This has been heavily discussed on other threads.

There is an oversupply of “ANY old driver”, i.e. one with a dodgy licence, too little experience, a poor health & safety record, a limp, and too lazy to vote against the incumbent party at any point, suggesting they are happy with things the way they are.

There is a SHORTAGE of clean licence holders with a spectrum of haulage experience who don’t smash kit up, get the job done, need little training beyond a brief “site induction”, and who will across the whole - be able to do any job across any funny shift pattern safely and competently.

Think what group your average no-speke-English baltic guy with a limp who’s ink is still wet on the licence, and the bit listing heavy endorsements has been mistaken for their name in their language time and time again when any scrutiny comes to bear… :smiling_imp:

47

If British drivers are walking off if there is no sat nav or the truck in not automatic, no wonder there is a driver shortage.
But blaming everything bad on EE is crazy, what about UK employers, UK insurance companies, UK agencies, UK licence cost etc. The coin always have 2 sides.

48

Dolph:
If British drivers are walking off if there is no sat nav or the truck in not automatic, no wonder there is a driver shortage.
But blaming everything bad on EE is crazy, what about UK employers, UK insurance companies, UK agencies, UK licence cost etc. The coin always have 2 sides.

You’ve completely misunderstood the meaning of this discussion.

49

I can’t recollect anyone on this thread blaming on EE, maybe other threads. Blame is on Insurers and employers so far.

50

WHO among us doesn’t know their way around without a Satnav in any case?

If you’re over 40 (which the average driver is supposed to be) then what business has a “youngun” got with getting all shirty about not having “The Knowledge”?

Next thing we hear will be “Can’t do the job without one of those bluetooth cybermen things stuck in your lug all the time whilst out on the road”…

FFS what did we do before tablets, mobile phones, & the internet?

A: We used a MAP and a bit of COMMON SENSE and ASKED if things got really hairy.

We NEVER “just went down this 6’6” marked country lane on the off-chance that was the “right way to go”.

What you see is what you get - still applies.
IGNORE the tech. If you can’t do without it, you ain’t no real driver. :bulb:

51

Rottweiler22:

Benjie83:
albion I’m young and impressionable, and I’ll start panting and pacing if you carry on, and I cant afford to replace any cushions at the mo :laughing: :wink:

Gotta say albion the new driver point you raised is exactly my issue with all industry as a whole, how is an inexperienced lad meant to get a shot if no one wants to give them one… Very sad, and can from what little life exp I have, destroy a person before their even started which is something this government should be ashamed of.

It should be supporting the hauliers, hopefuls, Glad Churchill never kicked us in before our elders even started.

Albion I will be in touch before the decade is out, or before I run out if cushions…anyone know where NEXT keep their soft furnishings warehouse? :laughing:

The new driver rhetoric is just sad. Complete catch-22, you need experience to get a job, but need a job to get experience. What frustrates me the most is when people say that you should do your LGV licence, and then “put it in a drawer and forget about it for two years, or until you’re 25”! It’s just ridiculous! I’ve driven a lorry nearly every day since September, and the amount of jobs that demand more experience than I have must be in the 70-80% mark. My dad passed his test in 1990, did one run, hated it, has never driven since, and he can apply for most jobs, purely because he’s held his licence for 26 years. I’ve driven more in a day, than my dad has in 26 years, and he still has the edge over me when it comes to applying for jobs: he could apply for almost anything, whereas I can only apply for maybe one in five jobs. The system is against you from the very start.

The point is, you can be as young as 19, and have the controls of a Boeing 737, carrying 200 people. You can be 24, and someone won’t let you drive their s*y Iveco, carrying pig s! If you look at it that way, it is absolutely mental!

Surely in 10-15 years time, when the bulk of Britain’s lorry drivers are reaching retirement age, and only a tiny handful of newcomers have taken the plunge, paid £3,000 for their licence, and decided to get into what is regarded as an “undesirable” career path, the real “shortage” will begin. Especially if Poland’s economy picks up, and a big percentage of Poles head home.

By the way, I know the exact location of where Next keep their cushions. Cough, Doncaster! :wink:

That must be an interesting situation lol…

I get the company standing on it, but someone has to give and break the mould and in fairness STOBBYS did break the mould, but again for alot it were an unobtainable prospect.

I genuinely, like many know the solution to the situation, but those in power have to break the cycle, bin the cheap foreign labour off and give it to our own, if they cant/wont THEN we ship in some supplies.

I’d be more than happy to take a start in the gutter, as long as the contact has a clause to say after x amount of time, say a year, your situation WILL change and up you go a level.
Give noobs a month with an old hand, make em double man for the duration, and give them the knowledge they need to get on and supply our own nation its own workforce.

As for me I’m a praying for a container firm I’ve found will do this for me…only time will tell.

52

Juddian:
and i don’t necessarily mean the modern driver trainer either who’s increasingly become a remote box ticking pedant who’s greatest thrill in life is bollocking you for an infringement and never but never actually teach anything bloody useful like how to control a bloody lorry

I didn’t realise you’d done any work at our mill. You obviously know our trainer very well. :grimacing:

53

Winseer:
There is an oversupply of “ANY old driver”, i.e. one with a dodgy licence, too little experience, a poor health & safety record, a limp, and too lazy to vote against the incumbent party at any point, suggesting they are happy with things the way they are.

There is a SHORTAGE of clean licence holders with a spectrum of haulage experience who don’t smash kit up, get the job done, need little training beyond a brief “site induction”, and who will across the whole - be able to do any job across any funny shift pattern safely and competently.

That’s like saying there’s a shortage of brain surgeons in transport. And not just brain surgeons, but brain surgeons who can work up to 15 hours a day, up to 6 days a week, on a mixture of days and nights, using a mixture of equipment and theatres, operating on humans and all sorts of animals big and small, without so much as causing brain damage once in a while.

The “shortage” is entirely artificial and only seems to exist because of the way work is currently being organised, and the way the industry is setting the threshold so high. It is not enough to be willing to drive - one has to be willing to drive at any hour

Were it otherwise, and there was a real shortage, market wages would be rising dramatically so as to poach workers from other occupations and bring in trainees, and conditions would also be improving dramatically for the same reason, and for temporary drivers their bookings would be happening increasingly in advance to ensure coverage. We aren’t seeing any of this. Wage rates have risen only a few percent a year for the past few years, with no other significant improvements.

54

Rjan:
That’s like saying there’s a shortage of brain surgeons in transport. And not just brain surgeons, but brain surgeons who can work up to 15 hours a day, up to 6 days a week, on a mixture of days and nights, using a mixture of equipment and theatres, operating on humans and all sorts of animals big and small, without so much as causing brain damage once in a while.

The “shortage” is entirely artificial and only seems to exist because of the way work is currently being organised, and the way the industry is setting the threshold so high. It is not enough to be willing to drive - one has to be willing to drive at any hour

Were it otherwise, and there was a real shortage, market wages would be rising dramatically so as to poach workers from other occupations and bring in trainees, and conditions would also be improving dramatically for the same reason, and for temporary drivers their bookings would be happening increasingly in advance to ensure coverage. We aren’t seeing any of this. Wage rates have risen only a few percent a year for the past few years, with no other significant improvements.

An excellent post. You hit the nail right on the head, mate.

[emoji106]

55

Rjan:

Winseer:
There is an oversupply of “ANY old driver”, i.e. one with a dodgy licence, too little experience, a poor health & safety record, a limp, and too lazy to vote against the incumbent party at any point, suggesting they are happy with things the way they are.

There is a SHORTAGE of clean licence holders with a spectrum of haulage experience who don’t smash kit up, get the job done, need little training beyond a brief “site induction”, and who will across the whole - be able to do any job across any funny shift pattern safely and competently.

That’s like saying there’s a shortage of brain surgeons in transport. And not just brain surgeons, but brain surgeons who can work up to 15 hours a day, up to 6 days a week, on a mixture of days and nights, using a mixture of equipment and theatres, operating on humans and all sorts of animals big and small, without so much as causing brain damage once in a while.

The “shortage” is entirely artificial and only seems to exist because of the way work is currently being organised, and the way the industry is setting the threshold so high. It is not enough to be willing to drive - one has to be willing to drive at any hour

Were it otherwise, and there was a real shortage, market wages would be rising dramatically so as to poach workers from other occupations and bring in trainees, and conditions would also be improving dramatically for the same reason, and for temporary drivers their bookings would be happening increasingly in advance to ensure coverage. We aren’t seeing any of this. Wage rates have risen only a few percent a year for the past few years, with no other significant improvements.

It’s ok to make your argument under your main posting name… This is a forum - and all opinions are welcome. I’d agree that any “shortage” is artificial though. Allowing drivers to have some say in their own contracts - ie negotiate the contract, but the money stays the same - would go a long way towards recruitment and retention.

At present, if you sign into a new contract, then find that one of the loose open ends is later used to beat you up with - you have to chuck the job in to get out of it. I wonder how much money firms waste each year servicing a high staff turnover? Getting a job should allow individuals to tailor make some aspects of it - fit both their own private needs AND the needs of the operation to mutual benefit.

Telling someone they’ve “got to do nights” or “must work sundays” for example is going to be POPULAR if it’s known from the outset and UNPOPULAR if it’s thrust upon one after commencing employment.

Imagine how many ladies that have kids at home would JUMP at the chance to take a 09:30-15:30 job monday-friday - but chuck it in after a few weeks when they find out that they’re expected to come in at all kinds of other times as well?

Worker-friendly contracts mean workers that will stay. Staff turnover collapses, and working there gains the reputation of “dead person’s shoes”… That’s a GOOD thing! :wink:

Low staff turnover also keeps re-training costs down, losses and damage due to too many inexperienced staff down, and the management can actually get to KNOW their staff better - rather than this constant stream of newbies coming and going a short while later, once they realize they’ve been had in their contract, and get stuck onto some job they just never wanted from the outset. :imp: If the firm or the firm’s representative misled the new staff - that same high staff turnover might come back to bite them in the arse, once the high command realizes that they need to ask middle management why such an office culture of “mislead the newbies” exists in the first place huh?

56

One thing i do when I take someone on is give them examples of previous weeks timesheets, the shortest weeks and the longest weeks. We are very clear about what the job is. As Winseer says, why would I want someone to start and then have to go through training again 3 months later.

Every now and then someone starts and finds it isn’t for them, but that’s down to them having an idea in their heads rather than listening to us telling them.

unfortunately our job has no rhythm whatsoever, busy and quiet and who can tell when. Ton of foreign work, then nothing the next month. Start and finish times all over the place, especially when you are fitting in with Swedish and Danish ferries.

57

Winseer:
It’s ok to make your argument under your main posting name… This is a forum - and all opinions are welcome. I’d agree that any “shortage” is artificial though. Allowing drivers to have some say in their own contracts - ie negotiate the contract, but the money stays the same - would go a long way towards recruitment and retention.

If I understand the implication correctly, I should be clear that this is my only “main posting name”.

At present, if you sign into a new contract, then find that one of the loose open ends is later used to beat you up with - you have to chuck the job in to get out of it. I wonder how much money firms waste each year servicing a high staff turnover? Getting a job should allow individuals to tailor make some aspects of it - fit both their own private needs AND the needs of the operation to mutual benefit.

I don’t think the industry realises how far out of kilter it is with “private needs”. I imagine only being a member of the armed forces demands more.

How many other jobs require you to sleep out, not just in a vehicle, but in the same vehicle as is used by countless other blokes on a regular basis?

As for bosses who bemoan vehicles sitting idle, how many of them even try to hire out their bedrooms to others whilst they are not at home, lest they lose what those assets could otherwise be earning? No market exists for these arrangements on either side, because any sensible person would think it inherently absurd to hire out one’s private living space. Even in an office, people typically have their own desks (and anyway they don’t sleep at them). And yet it goes for common sense in transport that wagons should be regularly shared amongst drivers.

Telling someone they’ve “got to do nights” or “must work sundays” for example is going to be POPULAR if it’s known from the outset and UNPOPULAR if it’s thrust upon one after commencing employment.

Would night working really be any more popular if disclosed up front?

58

^^^^ of course it would.

People like myself who choose to work nights - would go out of their way for jobs that required night working.

It’s shift working that is less popular, because it’s constantly changing shift back and forth that is the killer.

Permanent nights is a way of life, and a doddle once you get used to it. :bulb:

Yet, at job interviews - “night work” will be told as “must be prepared to work shifts” which will put off those people after permanent nights AND permanent days.

Who wants to be swapped around every damned week? :confused:

59

Sidevalve. Your post was more than my ugly sister-in-laws mouth in overdrive. Do you seriously mean Mansell’s pay less than Owens’ Llanelli…

That’s lower than a rattle snake’s tally wacker :laughing: