There has been much written about the demise of Leyland Trucks but having time in retirement now, I have put together my perspective on the subject having started out as a Leyland Student Apprentice in 1964. My time at Leyland came to an end when this once proud company collapsed.
I have put my views together on my web site at https://www.trapbarn.com/leyland/
I welcome additional contributions
Strong summary and my humble opinion is that Leyland had too many angles in the pond, deep and undeep…
Very interesting read thank you, I will leave most of the updating to our resident Leyland
expert. Just a couple of little things that I noticed was some of the grammar needs looking
at, quite a few words doubled up or out of place, also did the MK1 Marathon not come
with the L12 fitted originally.
You mentioned the use of various other engine suppliers, was the Gardner engine ever
fitted in Ergo cabbed chassis.
dave docwra:
Very interesting read thank you, I will leave most of the updating to our resident Leyland
expert. Just a couple of little things that I noticed was some of the grammar needs looking
at, quite a few words doubled up or out of place, also did the MK1 Marathon not come
with the L12 fitted originally.You mentioned the use of various other engine suppliers, was the Gardner engine ever
fitted in Ergo cabbed chassis.
That looks more like a formatting issue, the words and punctuation not transferring to a different platform correctly.
Tomdhu:
There has been much written about the demise of Leyland Trucks but having time in retirement now, I have put together my perspective on the subject having started out as a Leyland Student Apprentice in 1964. My time at Leyland came to an end when this once proud company collapsed.I have put my views together on my web site at https://www.trapbarn.com/leyland/
I welcome additional contributions
Thanks for the interesting and insightful view from the inside.
Well put together and very interesting read which brought together in one place segments of the Leyland/BMC story much of which has been written about and pored over in previous years .
Apart from my first two Mastiff units with the Perkins V8 engines the only other “BL” products , but not strictly Leyland, I operated were six Guy Big J’s with the LXB 180 engine and they did us proud during the time they were on the fleet ! But as for being tempted to get involved with the other Leyland offerings in the 70’s forget it as IMO they ranked alongside Foden and were an absolute no no as far as I was concerned and after all these many years since I am still more than confident to say I made the right decision to steer clear ( excuse the pun) of Leyland /AEC & Scammell products.
Cheers Bewick.
I should have been doing something else but got sucked in to a compelling read. Thank you for sharing on here. I think I will take away the single biggest factor as Stokes being appointed over Markland by Spurrier. Can the original poster shed any light on the reason for that decision. It strikes me that all the ensuing mistakes would have possibly been avoided with a businessman /engineer at the helm.
essexpete:
ICan the original poster shed any light on the reason for that decision. It strikes me that all the ensuing mistakes would have possibly been avoided with a businessman /engineer at the helm.
In my view it came down to salesmanship. I guess Stokes persuaded Spurrier by dint of his salesmanship. He could sell anything. He was articulate, engaging, enthusiastic, and had a broad smile.
Markland was a Leyland student apprentice, as was Stokes. He was an engineer and fantastic man-manager. He had a strong personality and didnt suffer fools gladly but had great financial acumen.
Spurrier must have had a difficult choice to make!
It’s always good to find out the views and thoughts from someone involved in the industry, especially during a time period when things went from good to bad and how this came about. Almost everyone has their take on why Leyland declined so it’s refreshing to read facts from someone who was there at the time. Still today many can’t understand why the UK commercial vehicle manufacturing industry once world leaders is now resigned to history but then again it wasn’t alone in this. Franky.
An excellent read.
Thank you
[quote=“dave docwra”
You mentioned the use of various other engine suppliers, was the Gardner engine ever
fitted in Ergo cabbed chassis.[/quote]
There was a few Gradners fitted to T45 Constructors but then only in the 8x4 version. This was the 6LXc and later the turbo 6LXCT giving 230bhp.
Also small numbers were installed in later model Leyland National buses because of the O.500 failures.
Tomdhu:
[quote=“dave docwra”You mentioned the use of various other engine suppliers, was the Gardner engine ever
fitted in Ergo cabbed chassis.
There was a few Gradners fitted to T45 Constructors but then only in the 8x4 version. This was the 6LXc and later the turbo 6LXCT giving 230bhp.
Also small numbers were installed in later model Leyland National buses because of the O.500 failures.
[/quote]
Butterley Aggregates, part of RMC, had a few in Nottingham and at Crich quarry.
Pete.
windrush:
Tomdhu:
[quote=“dave docwra”You mentioned the use of various other engine suppliers, was the Gardner engine ever
fitted in Ergo cabbed chassis.There was a few Gradners fitted to T45 Constructors but then only in the 8x4 version. This was the 6LXc and later the turbo 6LXCT giving 230bhp.
Also small numbers were installed in later model Leyland National buses because of the O.500 failures.
Butterley Aggregates, part of RMC, had a few in Nottingham and at Crich quarry.
Pete.
[/quote]
My mate Ian drove a Gardner powered Constructor for Butterley Aggregates out of their Attenborough depot in Nottingham
He hated it with a passion as it wasn’t as quick as the L10 powered ones
I was working in the garage at Stirlands at the time and I made him a Gardner key ring out of a Gardner side plate which I polished
He’s still got it
dave docwra:
Very interesting read thank you, I will leave most of the updating to our resident Leyland
expert. Just a couple of little things that I noticed was some of the grammar needs looking
at, quite a few words doubled up or out of place, .
Thanks for the heads up. I have made several grammatical and punctuation corrections.
I also welcome a contribution from the Leyland expert. I may well know him, Please advise.
One such expert would have been Graham Montgomerie who sadly is no longer with us. He left Leyland to go to Commercial Motor magazine
Original post is an interesting read informative and to the point.
As a family transport business we ran 20 / 25 vehicles and after buying Albion in the early sixties the fleet was 99% Leyland until we sold up in 1988. The only non Leyland products were a couple of 7.5t Bedfords and a single Daf.
Over the years we had LAD & ergo Albions, Reivers,Clydesdales, Bisons, Octopus (ergo cab) Super Comet, Freighters, Constructor8 & 6. The Constructor 8’s had the TL11, Gardner 6LC and the ■■■■■■■■
The Reivers were the worst thing we ever bought and despite what is said we had very few problems with the 500 engines. The TL11 matched to the Fuller 9 speed was an excellent combination for our work.
Tyneside
Tomdhu:
essexpete:
ICan the original poster shed any light on the reason for that decision. It strikes me that all the ensuing mistakes would have possibly been avoided with a businessman /engineer at the helm.In my view it came down to salesmanship. I guess Stokes persuaded Spurrier by dint of his salesmanship. He could sell anything. He was articulate, engaging, enthusiastic, and had a broad smile.
Markland was a Leyland student apprentice, as was Stokes. He was an engineer and fantastic man-manager. He had a strong personality and didnt suffer fools gladly but had great financial acumen.
Spurrier must have had a difficult choice to make!
At most Stokes could only have ‘persuaded’ the Leyland board to make William Black Spurrier’s successor.Which seems strange for someone who had a supposed vendetta against AEC.It was that replacement which caused Markland’s resignation in 1963 around 5 years before Stokes took over Spurriers/Black’s ptevious role.
Carryfast:
Tomdhu:
essexpete:
ICan the original poster shed any light on the reason for that decision. It strikes me that all the ensuing mistakes would have possibly been avoided with a businessman /engineer at the helm.In my view it came down to salesmanship. I guess Stokes persuaded Spurrier by dint of his salesmanship. He could sell anything. He was articulate, engaging, enthusiastic, and had a broad smile.
Markland was a Leyland student apprentice, as was Stokes. He was an engineer and fantastic man-manager. He had a strong personality and didnt suffer fools gladly but had great financial acumen.
Spurrier must have had a difficult choice to make!
At most Stokes could only have ‘persuaded’ the Leyland board to make William Black Spurrier’s successor.Which seems strange for someone who had a supposed vendetta against AEC.It was that replacement which caused Markland’s resignation in 1963 around 5 years before Stokes took over Spurriers/Black’s ptevious role.
FFS Geoffrey you’ll have us believe that you were there delivering the tea and biscuits at the Leyland Board meeting you are referring to ? AND "earwigging " on the the discussions that were taking place ! When you were actually running around the Leatherhead school yard with a lump of ginger cake in your hand pulling a wooden fire engine on a piece of string and making a noise like a DD two stroke ! Cheers Bewick.
Bewick:
Carryfast:
Tomdhu:
essexpete:
ICan the original poster shed any light on the reason for that decision. It strikes me that all the ensuing mistakes would have possibly been avoided with a businessman /engineer at the helm.In my view it came down to salesmanship. I guess Stokes persuaded Spurrier by dint of his salesmanship. He could sell anything. He was articulate, engaging, enthusiastic, and had a broad smile.
Markland was a Leyland student apprentice, as was Stokes. He was an engineer and fantastic man-manager. He had a strong personality and didnt suffer fools gladly but had great financial acumen.
Spurrier must have had a difficult choice to make!
At most Stokes could only have ‘persuaded’ the Leyland board to make William Black Spurrier’s successor.Which seems strange for someone who had a supposed vendetta against AEC.It was that replacement which caused Markland’s resignation in 1963 around 5 years before Stokes took over Spurriers/Black’s ptevious role.
FFS Geoffrey you’ll have us believe that you were there delivering the tea and biscuits at the Leyland Board meeting you are referring to ? AND "earwigging " on the the discussions that were taking place ! When you were actually running around the Leatherhead school yard with a lump of ginger cake in your hand pulling a wooden fire engine on a piece of string and making a noise like a DD two stroke ! Cheers Bewick.
Now then Dennis, that’s a bit harsh.
I think you’ll find Geoffrey was learning the art of pulling a dustcart on a piece of string with an A frame drawbar behind it, he was negotiating with all the high profile gearbox manufacturers at the time to be their demonstrator driver, he was hoping to be sent all over the world (including Australia) to “educate” less intelligent people the art of being a gearchange God, there wasn’t a 'box he couldn’t master or a trailer he couldn’t reverse, at least that’s what I’ve been told.
Personally I reckon his talent has been wasted over the years, after all his last shift was in 1982 apparently so ask yourself this question, what did he do until 1991 when the internet was launched to the public, did he just sit in the corner of Leatherhead Labour Club everyday nursing a half pint of shandy & ■■■■ everyone off in there until he could sit in his own living room & do it to everyone in the world?
1970commer:
Bewick:
Carryfast:
At most Stokes could only have ‘persuaded’ the Leyland board to make William Black Spurrier’s successor.Which seems strange for someone who had a supposed vendetta against AEC.It was that replacement which caused Markland’s resignation in 1963 around 5 years before Stokes took over Spurriers/Black’s ptevious role.FFS Geoffrey you’ll have us believe that you were there delivering the tea and biscuits at the Leyland Board meeting you are referring to ? AND "earwigging " on the the discussions that were taking place ! When you were actually running around the Leatherhead school yard with a lump of ginger cake in your hand pulling a wooden fire engine on a piece of string and making a noise like a DD two stroke ! Cheers Bewick.
Now then Dennis, that’s a bit harsh.
I think you’ll find Geoffrey was learning the art of pulling a dustcart on a piece of string with an A frame drawbar behind it, he was negotiating with all the high profile gearbox manufacturers at the time to be their demonstrator driver, he was hoping to be sent all over the world (including Australia) to “educate” less intelligent people the art of being a gearchange God, there wasn’t a 'box he couldn’t master or a trailer he couldn’t reverse, at least that’s what I’ve been told.
Personally I reckon his talent has been wasted over the years, after all his last shift was in 1982 apparently so ask yourself this question, what did he do until 1991 when the internet was launched to the public, did he just sit in the corner of Leatherhead Labour Club everyday nursing a half pint of shandy & ■■■■ everyone off in there until he could sit in his own living room & do it to everyone in the world?
Whatever but it don’t change the fact that Spurrier was long dead and Markland had walked away because of Black succeeding Spurrier, all long before Stokes took over the driving seat.
If Stokes made any mistake it was not telling the government that either BMC is shut down and AEC merge with Scammell and close Tolpits Lane and stop throwing good money away on the basket case in house truck engine production programme, or I walk away like Markland.
Bewick:
Carryfast:
Tomdhu:
essexpete:
ICan the original poster shed any light on the reason for that decision. It strikes me that all the ensuing mistakes would have possibly been avoided with a businessman /engineer at the helm.In my view it came down to salesmanship. I guess Stokes persuaded Spurrier by dint of his salesmanship. He could sell anything. He was articulate, engaging, enthusiastic, and had a broad smile.
Markland was a Leyland student apprentice, as was Stokes. He was an engineer and fantastic man-manager. He had a strong personality and didnt suffer fools gladly but had great financial acumen.
Spurrier must have had a difficult choice to make!
At most Stokes could only have ‘persuaded’ the Leyland board to make William Black Spurrier’s successor.Which seems strange for someone who had a supposed vendetta against AEC.It was that replacement which caused Markland’s resignation in 1963 around 5 years before Stokes took over Spurriers/Black’s ptevious role.
FFS Geoffrey you’ll have us believe that you were there delivering the tea and biscuits at the Leyland Board meeting you are referring to ? AND "earwigging " on the the discussions that were taking place ! When you were actually running around the Leatherhead school yard with a lump of ginger cake in your hand pulling a wooden fire engine on a piece of string and making a noise like a DD two stroke ! Cheers Bewick.
Deliver the tea and biscuits? You unkindly short sell our dear friend. He would have been a consultant. Then, as now, nobody took any notice of him. Oh, what Leyland could have been.