newmercman:
In 1973 a 300hp engine was an indulgence in snything other than a heavy haulage chassis, what was even available at that time with that power? F89, **32 Merc/320 MAN, 310 Deutz, 190-33 FIAT and off the top of my head that’s it, the 140 was still on the drawing board, the Transcon was yet to appear so the 335 ■■■■■■■ was yet to cross the pond, as was the 318 Detroit (8V71) none of which were mainstream, but too of the range specials and you seriously expect the AEC and Leyland designers and accountants to sign off on a 300+hp turbo intercooled long stroke 12litre in line 6 as a replacement for a 760 or 680, regardless of the state of the finances within the group.
Get a grip man ffs, they were designing products based on sales and customer demands, not from a crystal ball.
I’ve been saying that but probably not quite as articulate for the last few years regarding the bhp at the time
newmercman:
I believe the 15.2 litre CAT C15 ACERT engines have 4 bolt big ends. It’s a stroked version of the 14.6 litre 3406/C-15. I may be wrong and it’s the main bearing caps, but it’s the engine of choice for those that want serious HP, oh and before you get too excited they also use 17 litre cylinder kits which must cancel out the longer stroke advantages.
Apparently the sled pullers can go a full season without tearing it apart at up to 1500hp. God knows what the BMEP and cylinder pressures are on those.
One of the worst engines for high performance , they are only used because there are lots of Cat fans thinking they are greatest ever, even if in real life Cat has never made a good engine. Maunufacturing tolerances are too big but also some very bad designs.
In Finland we have 1500 hp working trucks… Also had C18 and C15 Cats in Sisus , they were a disaster even at stock hp.
Just a point of order: the ■■■■■■■ 14l NTC 335 was standard equipment in the ERF ‘European’ unit unveiled in Jan 1973. However, for the first two years it was only available as an export model
ERF-NGC-European:
Just a point of order: the ■■■■■■■ 14l NTC 335 was standard equipment in the ERF ‘European’ unit unveiled in Jan 1973. However, for the first two years it was only available as an export model
Carryfast:
What are you waffling on about? The options in the top weight T45 models were TL12, Rolls Royce, and ■■■■■■■■
The Roadtrain was launched with TL12 or nothing.Even Commercial Motor’s own article on its history state that it met customer resistance because of that fact.In addition to the Spicer transmission choice.
The TL12 was actually later dropped in favour of Rolls or ■■■■■■■ only.
newmercman:
In 1973 a 300hp engine was an indulgence in snything other than a heavy haulage chassis, what was even available at that time with that power? F89, **32 Merc/320 MAN, 310 Deutz, 190-33 FIAT and off the top of my head that’s it, the 140 was still on the drawing board, the Transcon was yet to appear so the 335 ■■■■■■■ was yet to cross the pond, as was the 318 Detroit (8V71) none of which were mainstream, but too of the range specials and you seriously expect the AEC and Leyland designers and accountants to sign off on a 300+hp turbo intercooled long stroke 12litre in line 6 as a replacement for a 760 or 680, regardless of the state of the finances within the group.
Get a grip man ffs, they were designing products based on sales and customer demands, not from a crystal ball.
No one puts an engine into production with with the idea that it will only need to meet the demands relevant on its introduction date.
10 years on isn’t crystal ball thinking.
The aspiration of 10hp per tonne, much more importantly 100 lb/ft per litre, was already there by the mid 1970’s.
Why do you think they tried to big up the actual output of the so called ‘290’ ■■■■■■■ if they thought that customers only wanted less.
While in this case we’re actually talking about the same 280 as the derated 305 already in use in the 280 Crusader which certainly wasn’t a ‘special’.
But obtained at lower rpm with an intercooler.
You know just like the Mack Maxidyne that we’re told Leyland wanted to emulate.
But we’re ready for up to 320 and beyond as and whenever we need it.
You know like on introduction of the Roadtrain just a few years later.
Oh wait DAF will hate that.
ERF-NGC-European:
Just a point of order: the ■■■■■■■ 14l NTC 335 was standard equipment in the ERF ‘European’ unit unveiled in Jan 1973. However, for the first two years it was only available as an export model
Ro
Yep we mustn’t the derail the greater aim of Europe’s post war recovery programme by letting those Brits get ahead of themselves and their place.
Meanwhile DAF and Volvo get on with their 3300 and TD120 F12 development and introduction progranmmes.
Absolutely no such thing as a rhd Brit registered 1973 Scania 140.Oh wait.Maybe it’s an Italian interloper with a Brit reg stuck on it. public.fotki.com/boballoa/the-o … -7bf1.html
newmercman:
I believe the 15.2 litre CAT C15 ACERT engines have 4 bolt big ends. It’s a stroked version of the 14.6 litre 3406/C-15. I may be wrong and it’s the main bearing caps, but it’s the engine of choice for those that want serious HP, oh and before you get too excited they also use 17 litre cylinder kits which must cancel out the longer stroke advantages.
Apparently the sled pullers can go a full season without tearing it apart at up to 1500hp. God knows what the BMEP and cylinder pressures are on those.
One of the worst engines for high performance , they are only used because there are lots of Cat fans thinking they are greatest ever, even if in real life Cat has never made a good engine. Maunufacturing tolerances are too big but also some very bad designs.
In Finland we have 1500 hp working trucks… Also had C18 and C15 Cats in Sisus , they were a disaster even at stock hp.
Define ‘disaster’.Like there are blown up CAT engines littering the world’s junk yards and no one wants them.
Just think what might have been if AEC had refused to listen to the naysayers and had turbocharged and intercooled its V8 and TL12 and then went on a sales assault for the combined CAT 3406, 3408 and Detroit 8v71 and 92 worldwide market share.
200,000 mile warranty included.
ERF-NGC-European:
Just a point of order: the ■■■■■■■ 14l NTC 335 was standard equipment in the ERF ‘European’ unit unveiled in Jan 1973. However, for the first two years it was only available as an export model
Ro
And also an option in the Marathon from 1977.
And earlier than that, if you remember WTJ 120L (a '73 reg), the Marathon with the NTC 335 and 13-sp Fuller that did Middle-East. Also, ERF were putting 335s in 5MW Europeans at the start of the '70s. I seem to remember reading on here that they were available in the UK in the late '60s and then we built them at Shotts under licence as the NTK 335 in the '70s.
ERF-NGC-European:
And earlier than that, if you remember WTJ 120L (a '73 reg), the Marathon with the NTC 335 and 13-sp Fuller
How, in view of that, can anyone possibly say that the Roadtrain being introduced to market with TL12 and Spicer take it or leave it more than 5 years later wasn’t an act of deliberate industrial sabotage.Totally in contradiction with the more sensible parts of the Ryder report.
Also with the very real mutterings of 10 hp per tonne becoming the foreseable norm which I was hearing being mentioned from numerous sources including shop floor level of the industry from the mid 1970’s.Also don’t buy this ongoing myth that Scammell wasn’t both a specialist vehicle and a mainstream haulage customer producer.
Why do I do it? Cat engines were not that good at first in UK trucks, head gasket and bottom end problems. I remember one local operator servicing a Cat for another firm and found lumps of metal in the oil, yet it sounded OK. Dropped the sump and all the bigend shells were breaking up which was fairly common apparently. We had a couple in Foden 4000’s, eventually they were removed and ■■■■■■■ installed. Many operators had the same issues, yet the same engines in plant were very reliable. Head gasket issues were blamed on the constant heating/cooling/heating of a road vehicle engine whereas plant usually worked hard and at a pretty constant temperature. They went well, I had one for a couple of days but like the ■■■■■■■ L10 there wasn’t much bottom end power and they needed keeping on the revs which the Fuller 13 speed box helped.
The Spicer gearbox was an odd choice for sure, who knows why that happened as there’s no logical reason. Did it have a negative effect on sales, I doubt it.
Yes you are correct, the 140 was earlier than 73, four years earlier from what I can gather after seeing the 50th anniversary model launched in Australia in 2019!
windrush:
Cat engines were not that good at first in UK trucks, head gasket and bottom end problems. They went well, I had one for a couple of days but like the ■■■■■■■ L10 there wasn’t much bottom end power and they needed keeping on the revs which the Fuller 13 speed box helped.
windrush:
Cat engines were not that good at first in UK trucks, head gasket and bottom end problems. They went well, I had one for a couple of days but like the ■■■■■■■ L10 there wasn’t much bottom end power and they needed keeping on the revs which the Fuller 13 speed box helped.
Carryfast:
What are you waffling on about? The options in the top weight T45 models were TL12, Rolls Royce, and ■■■■■■■■
The Roadtrain was launched with TL12 or nothing.Even Commercial Motor’s own article on its history state that it met customer resistance because of that fact.In addition to the Spicer transmission choice.
The TL12 was actually later dropped in favour of Rolls or ■■■■■■■ only.
At least tell it like it was.
Okay I’ll grant you that. The first Roadtrains were all TL12 powered and we had a pre-production demonstrator on long-term evaluation at Spillers in 1981, (‘W’ Registered in early 1981) TL12 powered. The full range of engine options was announced when the T45 was launched, but it was a phased introduction. It wasn’t until ‘X’ registrations came in August 1981 that the first Roadtrains appeared in any significant numbers. We took some in Spillers but we were keen to get hold of the eight-wheeler T45’s to replace some Guy Big J and Leyland TL11 Octopuses. The first Scammell Constructor eight-wheeler T45s came on ‘Y’ plates (August 1982 for 12 months) and they were ■■■■■■■ powered.
ERF-NGC-European:
Just a point of order: the ■■■■■■■ 14l NTC 335 was standard equipment in the ERF ‘European’ unit unveiled in Jan 1973. However, for the first two years it was only available as an export model
Ro
And also an option in the Marathon from 1977.
And earlier than that, if you remember WTJ 120L (a '73 reg), the Marathon with the NTC 335 and 13-sp Fuller that did Middle-East. Also, ERF were putting 335s in 5MW Europeans at the start of the '70s. I seem to remember reading on here that they were available in the UK in the late '60s and then we built them at Shotts under licence as the NTK 335 in the '70s.
Rowena
It was stated at the time that the Marathon WTJ 120L with the Cu 335 was a one-off for evaluation purposes.
newmercman:
The Spicer gearbox was an odd choice for sure, who knows why that happened as there’s no logical reason. Did it have a negative effect on sales, I doubt it.
Yes you are correct, the 140 was earlier than 73, four years earlier from what I can gather after seeing the 50th anniversary model launched in Australia in 2019!
This was CM’s take on the Roadtrain admittedly with hindsight but which foresight of any designers worth their salt at the time would have been expected to be able to work out.
As opposed to here is the new Roadtrain recently aquired in house Rolls 320 aftercooled and 13 speed Fuller standard fit 280 derated to order.
Oh wait that’s DAF’s 2800 and 3300 development project on the drawing board just blown out of the water.
ERF-NGC-European:
And earlier than that, if you remember WTJ 120L (a '73 reg), the Marathon with the NTC 335 and 13-sp Fuller
How, in view of that, can anyone possibly say that the Roadtrain being introduced to market with TL12 and Spicer take it or leave it more than 5 years later wasn’t an act of deliberate industrial sabotage.Totally in contradiction with the more sensible parts of the Ryder report.
Also with the very real mutterings of 10 hp per tonne becoming the foreseable norm which I was hearing being mentioned from numerous sources including shop floor level of the industry from the mid 1970’s.Also don’t buy this ongoing myth that Scammell wasn’t both a specialist vehicle and a mainstream haulage customer producer.
Scammell assembled mainstream haulage models in relatively small numbers annually, typically about 25% of AEC’s annual production and 18% of Leyland’s annual production. No one has claimed a ‘myth’ about its output. Scammell’s forte WAS in specialist vehicles. You claim to have done some work with Scammell; if you ever visited Tolpits Lane then you will know that it would have been difficult to increase output there because of restrictions imposed by the site. I for one have driven a Scammell Handyman and I liked it; Leyland O.680 engine, AEC Thorneycroft D203 gearbox. It was a good tractor unit. Credit where credit is due.
gingerfold:
Okay I’ll grant you that. The first Roadtrains were all TL12 powered and we had a pre-production demonstrator on long-term evaluation at Spillers in 1981, (‘W’ Registered in early 1981) TL12 powered. The full range of engine options was announced when the T45 was launched, but it was a phased introduction. It wasn’t until ‘X’ registrations came in August 1981 that the first Roadtrains appeared in any significant numbers. We took some in Spillers but we were keen to get hold of the eight-wheeler T45’s to replace some Guy Big J and Leyland TL11 Octopuses. The first Scammell Constructor eight-wheeler T45s came on ‘Y’ plates (August 1982 for 12 months) and they were ■■■■■■■ powered.
Surely Leyland would have wanted to whip up a far greater frenzy among the industry press at the launch publicity circus than here is our new assualt against the foreign invasion with less than the headline big cam ■■■■■■■ ‘290’ figure from an engine recently introduced in…1973 which we’re sure you all know well.Oh and you’ve got the bonus of the Spicer box instead of the 13 speed Fuller which you might have expected.
As opposed to we are leading the way towards a 10hp per tonne industry norm based on maximising torque output with intercooling as standard with the now well developed Rolls Eagle design produced at our AEC plant in Southall.Which came with the recent purchase of Rolls Royce Diesels.The well proven and accepted 13 speed Fuller will exploit that potential to the maximium.
Carryfast:
What are you waffling on about? The options in the top weight T45 models were TL12, Rolls Royce, and ■■■■■■■■
The Roadtrain was launched with TL12 or nothing.Even Commercial Motor’s own article on its history state that it met customer resistance because of that fact.In addition to the Spicer transmission choice.
The TL12 was actually later dropped in favour of Rolls or ■■■■■■■ only.
At least tell it like it was.
Okay I’ll grant you that. The first Roadtrains were all TL12 powered and we had a pre-production demonstrator on long-term evaluation at Spillers in 1981, (‘W’ Registered in early 1981) TL12 powered. The full range of engine options was announced when the T45 was launched, but it was a phased introduction. It wasn’t until ‘X’ registrations came in August 1981 that the first Roadtrains appeared in any significant numbers. We took some in Spillers but we were keen to get hold of the eight-wheeler T45’s to replace some Guy Big J and Leyland TL11 Octopuses. The first Scammell Constructor eight-wheeler T45s came on ‘Y’ plates (August 1982 for 12 months) and they were ■■■■■■■ powered.
