[zb]
anorak:
The TL12 would easily make 300+ bhp, with an air-to-air charge cooler. It might need moving back in the chassis, to give the extra 100 or so mm in front of the radiator (which might need to have a denser core, to cope with the higher temperature?).
We’re looking for 300 + at 1,800 rpm.We won’t need to worry about any of that cooling bollox for an egine dyno run from a water tower.
While we already know that your idea of cylinder pressures and resulting loads on the piston and rod assembly and main bearing and head fastenings/seal is that they can’t possibly be more than 2 x BMEP.
You also don’t do the distance side of the force x distance equation school of engine design to alleviate those loads.
All we need to do now is wait for cav to find us a spare TL12 sitting around somewhere to try it and if it blows up in the process you can pick up the tab.
1st it was 320 at 1800. Then 320 @ less than 2000. Then 320 @1950. Then 310 @ 1800. Now it’s 300 @ 1800
Congratulations, you’ve done it and finally managed to alter it so that your beloved 14 litre ■■■■■■■ Super E320 can probably just manage to meet a target you’ve set.
We know the TL12 was under development and was making 325, what we don’t know was the rpm required but we can work out the torque at whatever that rated speed was. We don’t know what its ultimate limit was, nor what modifications were planned but you are claiming that you do, so come on then let’s see all the calculations to prove that the head is going to fly off and the crankshaft come away from the block.
Meanwhile up to 400bhp and 1000 lbft is being achieved by the ■■■■■■■ ISBE 6.7 litre engine and that’s not flying apart.
[zb]
anorak:
While we already know that your idea of cylinder pressures and resulting loads on the piston and rod assembly and main bearing and head fastenings/seal is that they can’t possibly be more than 2 x BMEP.
I did not say that. I asked you to show that you could calculate the tensile load in the conn rod at TDC, and at what rpm would that equal the corresponding compressive load caused by a pressure of 2x BMEP in the cylinder, with the crank at 90 deg. You can’t even quote the question correctly, never mind answer it. I actually wrote the equation for the tensile load out, in a reply to NMM. Another member has posted an easy calculator. The method of calculating BMEP is on Wikipedia. Schoolboy mechanics will give you the load in the conn rod (and the side load on the piston). I bet you don’t even attempt to do the work. Time for another thread title change, to “CF avoids engine design, prefers b.s.”
Having worked only for French transport firms, I of course never had an opportunity to try RR, ■■■■■■■ or Gardner engines (the last were fitted on Bernard trucks up to the 1950s), and therefore cannot get into the conversation.
Nevertheless, I can give and advice on several types of continental engines, mainly built in the '70s, '80s and '90s. My favourite was the big 13.7 litre straight-6 Fiat/Iveco rated at 380 bhp. Good power and torque at all rpms, and rather economical for its time. Better than their 17-litre V8 the stroke of which was too short, therefore asking to push up the revs to get out its power. The huge 18 litre Mercedes natural-aspiration V 10 was good at pulling out from start (MB 1936), but totally “hollow” above 70 kph. I also liked the engine Volvo fitted on the FH 12; smooth power and a very good engine braking.
Froggy55:
Having worked only for French transport firms, I of course never had an opportunity to try RR, ■■■■■■■ or Gardner engines (the last were fitted on Bernard trucks up to the 1950s), and therefore cannot get into the conversation.
Nevertheless, I can give and advice on several types of continental engines, mainly built in the '70s, '80s and '90s. My favourite was the big 13.7 litre straight-6 Fiat/Iveco rated at 380 bhp. Good power and torque at all rpms, and rather economical for its time. Better than their 17-litre V8 the stroke of which was too short, therefore asking to push up the revs to get out its power. The huge 18 litre Mercedes natural-aspiration V 10 was good at pulling out from start (MB 1936), but totally “hollow” above 70 kph. I also liked the engine Volvo fitted on the FH 12; smooth power and a very good engine braking.
The V8 Iveco 480 we had in the late 80s was a brilliant performer it pulled like a train the 360s were excellent too it was the cabs falling apart that let them down.
I sat above a Rolls 265 Li for almost eleven years and although it was very reliable and never had as much as an injector change in that time there wasn’t much ‘pulling’ power at low rpm like my previous 201 Gardner, and you had to keep working the gearbox to get it along and keep it around the 2000 rpm mark. It ‘red lined’ at 2200. It’s replacement, a Rolls/Perkins 335 TX, was even worse. Nothing much happened until it was at high revs and then it flew and could hardly change gear fast enough, however on some soft construction sites it just hadn’t the low down power to drag itself out when the ground gave way slightly, and I remember when resurfacing one local hill it just wouldn’t reverse up it until I tipped part of the load off despite slipping the clutch to try and get the thing moving. 1st gear was almost always needed when setting off loaded and I was only running at 31 tonnes as well because the gaffer wouldn’t pay the extra cash to run them at 32 tonnes as he considered it a waste of money.
windrush:
I sat above a Rolls 265 Li for almost eleven years and although it was very reliable and never had as much as an injector change in that time there wasn’t much ‘pulling’ power at low rpm like my previous 201 Gardner, and you had to keep working the gearbox to get it along and keep it around the 2000 rpm mark. It ‘red lined’ at 2200. It’s replacement, a Rolls/Perkins 335 TX, was even worse. Nothing much happened until it was at high revs and then it flew and could hardly change gear fast enough, however on some soft construction sites it just hadn’t the low down power to drag itself out when the ground gave way slightly, and I remember when resurfacing one local hill it just wouldn’t reverse up it until I tipped part of the load off despite slipping the clutch to try and get the thing moving. 1st gear was almost always needed when setting off loaded and I was only running at 31 tonnes as well because the gaffer wouldn’t pay the extra cash to run them at 32 tonnes as he considered it a waste of money.
Pete.
I drove the 265 in Foden S85’s at 24t gross and don’t recognise a word of that other than the reliability.I’m guessing the TX produced peak power at 1,950 rpm in which case 2,000 did what other than waste a load of fuel.
265 struggled at 32t who would have thought it.But going by the way it pulled at 24t it would have struggled less than many.
We know it was capable of around 100 lb/ft per litre at 1,200 rpm.
Carryfast:
We’re looking for 300 + at 1,800 rpm.We won’t need to worry about any of that cooling bollox for an egine dyno run from a water tower.
While we already know that your idea of cylinder pressures and resulting loads on the piston and rod assembly and main bearing and head fastenings/seal is that they can’t possibly be more than 2 x BMEP.
You also don’t do the distance side of the force x distance equation school of engine design to alleviate those loads.
All we need to do now is wait for cav to find us a spare TL12 sitting around somewhere to try it and if it blows up in the process you can pick up the tab.
1st it was 320 at 1800. Then 320 @ less than 2000. Then 320 @1950. Then 310 @ 1800. Now it’s 300 @ 1800
Congratulations, you’ve done it and finally managed to alter it so that your beloved 14 litre ■■■■■■■ Super E320 can probably just manage to meet a target you’ve set.
We know the TL12 was under development and was making 325, what we don’t know was the rpm required but we can work out the torque at whatever that rated speed was. We don’t know what its ultimate limit was, nor what modifications were planned but you are claiming that you do, so come on then let’s see all the calculations to prove that the head is going to fly off and the crankshaft come away from the block.
Meanwhile up to 400bhp and 1000 lbft is being achieved by the ■■■■■■■ ISBE 6.7 litre engine and that’s not flying apart.
Firstly I’ve not seen any evidence that a ‘340’ RR isn’t putting out 320 at 1,800 rpm.
I moved the goal posts to give the TL12 a chance.
We don’t know what the rpm was so we can’t work out what the torque was at the supposed ‘325’.
Leyland never put a 290 let alone 325 TL12 into production.
Why did Volvo go to all the trouble of even making let alone having to lean their TD120 to fit it under the F88 ? cab when they could have just boosted the TD 70 to the same output.
Why didn’t ■■■■■■■ use the TL12’s let alone AEC V8’s bore stroke ratio for the 6.7.
Advances in materials have allowed far greater specific outputs than was possible in the 1970’s.Who would have thought it.
The MX 13 puts out similar specific torque as the ■■■■■■■ 6.7 at less than half the engine speed.It has a design overhaul life of 4 times as much.It has a bore stroke ratio of less than the ■■■■■■■ 6.7.
windrush:
I sat above a Rolls 265 Li for almost eleven years and although it was very reliable and never had as much as an injector change in that time there wasn’t much ‘pulling’ power at low rpm like my previous 201 Gardner, and you had to keep working the gearbox to get it along and keep it around the 2000 rpm mark. It ‘red lined’ at 2200. It’s replacement, a Rolls/Perkins 335 TX, was even worse. Nothing much happened until it was at high revs and then it flew and could hardly change gear fast enough, however on some soft construction sites it just hadn’t the low down power to drag itself out when the ground gave way slightly, and I remember when resurfacing one local hill it just wouldn’t reverse up it until I tipped part of the load off despite slipping the clutch to try and get the thing moving. 1st gear was almost always needed when setting off loaded and I was only running at 31 tonnes as well because the gaffer wouldn’t pay the extra cash to run them at 32 tonnes as he considered it a waste of money.
Pete.
Not sure if you read the E290 Marathon road test Dean posted Pete but it said that you had to be very careful with the revs otherwise the fuel consumption rose dramatically unlike the TL12 Marathon which was much more flexible. Was the 265 or the 335 good on fuel?
gingerfold:
Not a problem finding a TL12, there are still quite a few about, either in restored Marathons and T45s, or in scrap yards. If you are so inclined you can also try the twin-turbocharged AVT 810 V8 at 350 bhp at the same time; two of which exist in a private collection.
Wow! Were the V8s built by AEC/Leyland, or created by an enthusiast? Does the collector allow observers to see/hear them, by appointment?
They are genuine AEC Southall development engines, road tested as mentioned in the article extract I posted earlier. They were in the vast collection of the late Group Captain Bill Taylor who sadly died a couple of years ago. A very private man, who had a very private collection of AEC’s and engines. He was also a vintage aircraft restorer who after retirement from the RAF was MD of the De Havilland collection at Duxford. Bill was an RAF Halton apprentice who rose through the ranks of the RAF to senior rank in the engineering division. A hugely talented engineer who certainly knew what he was talking about.
ramone:
Not sure if you read the E290 Marathon road test Dean posted Pete but it said that you had to be very careful with the revs otherwise the fuel consumption rose dramatically unlike the TL12 Marathon which was much more flexible. Was the 265 or the 335 good on fuel?
I think the 265 in Li form was better on fuel than the earlier 265’s we ran Ramone, however on a trip from Ashbourne to St Clears and return the same day that we did for a while we had to carry five gallons of fuel in a can with us but fuel consumption never worried me as I was only a driver! The lads running to London and Somerset could do that easily on one tank of fuel, but then I had the ‘pedal to the metal’ all day (pre limiter) as you could only just do it in ten hours driving. I think around 6-7 mpg generally was mentioned but of course they replaced a 99% Gardner fleet which would have had better figures. Regarding the 335: I only had it for twelve months and did no long trips with it, mostly ‘collar work’ around the Peaks, Manchester and Yorkshire or seven loads a day to a local concrete works which was mostly uphill laden and only about one mile of it in top gear so not ideal for getting good figures anyway. Same applies to the 265 Li as well, our work was just not conducive to getting a good mpg.
ramone:
Not sure if you read the E290 Marathon road test Dean posted Pete but it said that you had to be very careful with the revs otherwise the fuel consumption rose dramatically unlike the TL12 Marathon which was much more flexible. Was the 265 or the 335 good on fuel?
You had to be careful with the revs in so much that there was no point in going past 1,900 rpm. Where it produced more power than the TL12 did at 2,000 rpm.
It also made more torque than the TL12 from 1,200 rpm.
You’re trying to make a positive trait out of a negative one.It’s a truck it’s not meant to be driven like a race car.
It’s also obvious that ■■■■■■■ were on the borderlines of diminishing returns at such low specific torque and power outputs.
The 14 litre clearly needed to be worked much harder with more boost which it was in numerous applications.But arguably still pointless at much under the 400 hp mark.350 + was where it needed to be.
It’s obvious that the extra leverage of its 6 inch stroke could only have helped regardless.
Just like the TD120 and Eagle.
gingerfold:
Not a problem finding a TL12, there are still quite a few about, either in restored Marathons and T45s, or in scrap yards. If you are so inclined you can also try the twin-turbocharged AVT 810 V8 at 350 bhp at the same time; two of which exist in a private collection.
Wow! Were the V8s built by AEC/Leyland, or created by an enthusiast? Does the collector allow observers to see/hear them, by appointment?
They are genuine AEC Southall development engines, road tested as mentioned in the article extract I posted earlier. They were in the vast collection of the late Group Captain Bill Taylor who sadly died a couple of years ago. A very private man, who had a very private collection of AEC’s and engines. He was also a vintage aircraft restorer who after retirement from the RAF was MD of the De Havilland collection at Duxford. Bill was an RAF Halton apprentice who rose through the ranks of the RAF to senior rank in the engineering division. A hugely talented engineer who certainly knew what he was talking about.
They still exist ? Who owns them now or is that not for public knowledge. Did the test beds survive with the American style cab?
gingerfold:
They are genuine AEC Southall development engines, road tested as mentioned in the article extract I posted earlier. They were in the vast collection of the late Group Captain Bill Taylor who sadly died a couple of years ago. A very private man, who had a very private collection of AEC’s and engines. He was also a vintage aircraft restorer who after retirement from the RAF was MD of the De Havilland collection at Duxford. Bill was an RAF Halton apprentice who rose through the ranks of the RAF to senior rank in the engineering division. A hugely talented engineer who certainly knew what he was talking about.
They still exist ? Who owns them now or is that not for public knowledge. Did the test beds survive with the American style cab?
Photos and a parts list would be enough for a group of enthusiast engineers to make an 811 V8. Given the cooling issues the V8 had, I suggest we put it in a Marathon, with an intercooler nicked off a DAF 2800DKS (contemporary parts only- this is a “period” build!). My somewhat furred-up knowledge of cooling system design suggests we incorporate a partial-flow header tank (they were not universal in the early '70s, but became more accepted as the decade wore on. I think, although I’m not sure, they aided the expulsion of air from the system- helpful if the head had a few “ox-bow lakes” in it). The rad could come from a ■■■■■■■ NTC380 Scammell Contractor.
For all you technical guys out there and CF , i have just returned to work after a week and a half break , i drive a 6 x 4 Daf 460 with a 16 speed ZF. When i finished a week last tuesday it was as good as a 10 year old Daf could be within reason . When i set off loaded this morning i noticed at mid revs 1300rpm a deep groan and vibration coming from the transmission , this only happens under load but quite noticable. Any ideas , the box was fine when i left it
gingerfold:
They are genuine AEC Southall development engines, road tested as mentioned in the article extract I posted earlier. They were in the vast collection of the late Group Captain Bill Taylor who sadly died a couple of years ago. A very private man, who had a very private collection of AEC’s and engines. He was also a vintage aircraft restorer who after retirement from the RAF was MD of the De Havilland collection at Duxford. Bill was an RAF Halton apprentice who rose through the ranks of the RAF to senior rank in the engineering division. A hugely talented engineer who certainly knew what he was talking about.
They still exist ? Who owns them now or is that not for public knowledge. Did the test beds survive with the American style cab?
Photos and a parts list would be enough for a group of enthusiast engineers to make an 811 V8. Given the cooling issues the V8 had, I suggest we put it in a Marathon, with an intercooler nicked off a DAF 2800DKS (contemporary parts only- this is a “period” build!). My somewhat furred-up knowledge of cooling system design suggests we incorporate a partial-flow header tank (they were not universal in the early '70s, but became more accepted as the decade wore on. I think, although I’m not sure, they aided the expulsion of air from the system- helpful if the head had a few “ox-bow lakes” in it). The rad could come from a ■■■■■■■ NTC380 Scammell Contractor.
The Marathon chassis / cab would have been an ideal installation for a turbo-charged V8, as indeed was the concept test trucks. Plenty of space for air circulation and the Marathon Mk.1 was actually over-cooled with radiator capacity. AEC had gone from one extreme to the other in terms of coolant capacity dictated by the constraints of of the low-datum Ergo cab, to the large radiator in the Marathon. the Marathon Mk, 2 actually had a smaller rad than the Mk. 1, except for the Cu 335 option destined for the Antipodes.
As far as I know Bill Taylor’s collection hasn’t been disposed of… yet, there has been something of a “news blackout” / embargo. I do know who has been to value it for probate purposes, so it could be that something is heard about certain items in the not too distant future.
gingerfold:
They are genuine AEC Southall development engines, road tested as mentioned in the article extract I posted earlier. They were in the vast collection of the late Group Captain Bill Taylor who sadly died a couple of years ago. A very private man, who had a very private collection of AEC’s and engines. He was also a vintage aircraft restorer who after retirement from the RAF was MD of the De Havilland collection at Duxford. Bill was an RAF Halton apprentice who rose through the ranks of the RAF to senior rank in the engineering division. A hugely talented engineer who certainly knew what he was talking about.
They still exist ? Who owns them now or is that not for public knowledge. Did the test beds survive with the American style cab?
Photos and a parts list would be enough for a group of enthusiast engineers to make an 811 V8. Given the cooling issues the V8 had, I suggest we put it in a Marathon, with an intercooler nicked off a DAF 2800DKS (contemporary parts only- this is a “period” build!). My somewhat furred-up knowledge of cooling system design suggests we incorporate a partial-flow header tank (they were not universal in the early '70s, but became more accepted as the decade wore on. I think, although I’m not sure, they aided the expulsion of air from the system- helpful if the head had a few “ox-bow lakes” in it). The rad could come from a ■■■■■■■ NTC380 Scammell Contractor.
The Marathon chassis / cab would have been an ideal installation for a turbo-charged V8, as indeed was the concept test trucks. Plenty of space for air circulation and the Marathon Mk.1 was actually over-cooled with radiator capacity. AEC had gone from one extreme to the other in terms of coolant capacity dictated by the constraints of of the low-datum Ergo cab, to the large radiator in the Marathon. the Marathon Mk, 2 actually had a smaller rad than the Mk. 1, except for the Cu 335 option destined for the Antipodes.
As far as I know Bill Taylor’s collection hasn’t been disposed of… yet, there has been something of a “news blackout” / embargo. I do know who has been to value it for probate purposes, so it could be that something is heard about certain items in the not too distant future.
ramone:
For all you technical guys out there and CF , i have just returned to work after a week and a half break , i drive a 6 x 4 Daf 460 with a 16 speed ZF. When i finished a week last tuesday it was as good as a 10 year old Daf could be within reason . When i set off loaded this morning i noticed at mid revs 1300rpm a deep groan and vibration coming from the transmission , this only happens under load but quite noticable. Any ideas , the box was fine when i left it
As always they will need to look at the simple things first and no 1 consider what work has been done on it recently . They’ll start with safety things first probably and then move on. Plenty of options: Propshaft centre bearng, UJs, as it is a 6x4 the shaft between the two drive axles wears heavily especially the spline. Flanges, mountings, crankshaft damper, rear suspension, rear hubs ( hub reduction axles?) the list goes on and then it possibly gets more involved. You can strike lucky or spend hours road testing. Old fashioned saying when head scratching - ‘let it develop’.
ramone:
For all you technical guys out there and CF , i have just returned to work after a week and a half break , i drive a 6 x 4 Daf 460 with a 16 speed ZF. When i finished a week last tuesday it was as good as a 10 year old Daf could be within reason . When i set off loaded this morning i noticed at mid revs 1300rpm a deep groan and vibration coming from the transmission , this only happens under load but quite noticable. Any ideas , the box was fine when i left it
As always they will need to look at the simple things first and no 1 consider what work has been done on it recently . They’ll start with safety things first probably and then move on. Plenty of options: Propshaft centre bearng, UJs, as it is a 6x4 the shaft between the two drive axles wears heavily especially the spline. Flanges, mountings, crankshaft damper, rear suspension, rear hubs ( hub reduction axles?) the list goes on and then it possibly gets more involved. You can strike lucky or spend hours road testing. Old fashioned saying when head scratching - ‘let it develop’.
I think that will be the answer they let everything develop at our place
gingerfold:
The Marathon chassis / cab would have been an ideal installation for a turbo-charged V8, as indeed was the concept test trucks. Plenty of space for air circulation and the Marathon Mk.1 was actually over-cooled with radiator capacity. AEC had gone from one extreme to the other in terms of coolant capacity dictated by the constraints of of the low-datum Ergo cab, to the large radiator in the Marathon. the Marathon Mk, 2 actually had a smaller rad than the Mk. 1, except for the Cu 335 option destined for the Antipodes.
As far as I know Bill Taylor’s collection hasn’t been disposed of… yet, there has been something of a “news blackout” / embargo. I do know who has been to value it for probate purposes, so it could be that something is heard about certain items in the not too distant future.
Did the test beds survive ?
[/quote]
No they were transferred to Leyland for disposal.
dazcapri:
How can you compare the Acclaim to a 3 series BMW it was to replace the Dolomite/Maxi/Marina range.You’re own link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_Acclaim
clearly states that it was the least warrantied BL car and was the 7/8th best selling car of 1982/83,from a business point of view that’s a good result The tie-in with Honda was years ahead of it’s time,look at car companies now they all share platforms i.e. Fiat 500/Ford KA and Toyota Yaris/Citroen C1/Peugeot 107
The Rover engine was turned down by Triumph who said it wouldn’t fit so if that’s the reason Triumph failed it was there own fault en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_Stag both state this so you can argue all you like it’s there in print,
As for Edwards hating Triumph so much that’s just rubbish his own personal car was a Triumph estate,besides it was Stokes who announced the Death knell for large Triumph salons (in 1973) lancasterinsurance.co.uk/ne … 2500-mkii/
again it’s in print 1973 Stokes clearly saying Triumph would no longer compete directly with Rover. Even if he hadn’t do you seriously think a car designed and launched in the early 60’s with an engine designed in the late 50’s and launched in 1960 would take the company into the future,what’s next the T45 should have been steam powered.
How do you compare a front wheel drive Jap zb box with a rear wheel drive 1.8-2.0 litre small saloon range.At the time directed head on against the 2002 series.Wich was replaced by the 3 series which then also shoehorned even larger saloon 6 cylinder motors into them in the form of 323 and 325 to very profitable effect.
That was the point Triumph were a premium brand in the premium JRT division not a BMC wanabee.
So tell us why did BMW avoid/not want your front wheel drive Jap tie up deal if it was supposedly so good for us.
Of course Stokes didn’t want Triumph to compete with Rover.He wanted them to co-operate you know like putting the Rover V8 in the Stag and by implication the 2.5.A Triumph sale was as good to the Group as a Rover sale.If the V8 was supposedly turned down by Triumph why did Spen King need to come up with the bs supply excuse to Stokes.Supply would obviously have been moot.
Edwardes drove a Triumph estate.Yeah right he liked it so much he signed the deal which turned Triumph into a maker of the Acclaim and turned Spen King’s SD1 abortion into the full ■■■■■■ front wheel drive Honda based 820.That ended well for both firms.
As I said BMW were laughing all the way to the bank.Your articles are obviously told from the side of the pro Edwardes faction.
Edwardes wrecked Leyland not Stokes.
Firstly Carryfast I’m going to (sort of) agree the Acclaim wasn’t a suitable replacement for the Dolomite, it should never have carried the Triumph badge Austin or Morris would’ve been more suitable.
If you read the links Stokes is QUOTED as saying Triumph would never compete with Rover and would specialise in smaller sporting saloons.
Ewardes had a Triumph estate he turned up in it on his first day at BL and was ridiculed by the press for turning up in a car which had gone out of production. When he left he was gifted a Jaguar XJS which he liked so much he had it shipped back to South Africa in 1988…
Edwardes never stopped Triumph from putting the V8 in a 2000 saloon because when he arrived at BL Triumph had already ceased making the 2000.Now remind me who was in charge before Edwardes would that be Stokes.So the 2000 saloon was scrapped by STOKES BEFORE Edwardes arrived.
As for Edwardes not allowing Triumph to use the Rover V8,he was at BL from Nov 1977 to 1982 during this time Triumph produced a car called the TR8 which had those Rover V8 engines that you say he wouldn’t let them use.
Spen King is Quoted as saying Triumph told him the Rover engine wouldn’t fit the Stag he said " I believed them maybe I shouldn’t have Believed them but I did"
The lads running to London and Somerset could do that easily on one tank of fuel, but then I had the ‘pedal to the metal’ all day (pre limiter) as you could only just do it in ten hours driving. I think around 6-7 mpg generally was mentioned but of course they replaced a 99% Gardner fleet which would have had better figures. Regarding the 335: I only had it for twelve months and did no long trips with it, mostly ‘collar work’ around the Peaks, Manchester and Yorkshire or seven loads a day to a local concrete works which was mostly uphill laden and only about one mile of it in top gear so not ideal for getting good figures anyway. Same applies to the 265 Li as well, our work was just not conducive to getting a good mpg.