The best British built long haul truck ever?

[trev_h]

[zb]
anorak:

3300John:
… Crusader have been mentioned, Motor panels
cab again, its a good job they would do 70mph. The cab would have rotted away on a trip
from Leeds to London if they’d have had limiters in the 70’s the same as S40 foden
ERF mv/mw cabs Seddon and Guy big J,s.God where did Motor panels get their sheet
steel,Maybe the same place Volvo got their F88 cab steel from
John

I’ve always taken these steel quality/corrosion jibes with a pinch of salt (pun intended ). I understand that, if there are inclusions of foreign matter in the steel, it can give rise to a difference in potential between the muck and the surrounding steel, sp that the iron there will oxidise faster. However, it is difficult to believe that reputable firms like Volvo or Motor Panels would allow rubbish through their doors. I think it is more an issue of poor painting or insufficient paint/wax on the bits you can’t see. I once met the owner of a Lancia Beta, who had had the car Ziebarted from new. It was 20-25 years old when I saw it, and had never had welding or paint in its life. Those cars were always derided for “recycled steel”, as if the iron ore that is dug out of the ground does not contain rust!

Does anyone have any actual information on the relationship between measurements of steel composition and corrosion, in vehicle body applications?

We had 2 R reg 76 Big J’s that came with Ziebart rust proofing, they didn’t dissolve like the rest and we kept them longer than normal, they would have been 10 yrs old when we got rid but the cabs were still in good shape, others at 3 yrs old had rusted bad !

[zb_anorak]

Trev_H:
We had 2 R reg 76 Big J’s that came with Ziebart rust proofing, they didn’t dissolve like the rest and we kept them longer than normal, they would have been 10 yrs old when we got rid but the cabs were still in good shape, others at 3 yrs old had rusted bad !

Good stuff Trev- actual experience beats pub talk every time. I had another Ziebarted Lancia myself, but the job had been done poorly- there were untreated cavities all over the vehicle, as if the bloke that did the work was unaware of how the shell was constructed. I found out the hard way, having had to cut out all the rotten bits to rebuild it!

I wonder how many of the restored lorries on the circuit have had proper rust protection? Not enough, I would guess- many times I have seen a welder or painter finish a job, to a high standard, and just kick it out the door, as if he does not care whether his good work lasts or not.

[240_gardner]

Dan Punchard:
Don’t forget foden was changed to Poden for export to somewhere ,perhaps they should of kept it in the uk too or more like pooden.

Portugal

[saviem]

Evening all, well I was was given a new little computer for Christmas, …and I`m b…d if I can use it! Me spectacles are not strong enough to see these little keys, heaven only knows how I am supposed to carry on!

I suppose my problem is a bit like that encountered by Coventrys Motor Panels people..........they dealt with what they could see, (painted it), and forgot what they could not.......do not know what happened in Sweden, but when I was at Hartshornes even F86, and F88 cabs I had sold new, were corroding in 12 months!

Zeibart did work, (but it depended on who applied it…diligence I suppose), but without any form of corrosion inhibitor…watch out. One only has to remember the motorcars of the same period," hubble bubble where has my money gone"!

Funny old thing, the Guy/Scammell comparison…

.Guy, designed by Cliff Elliott, recruited from Dodge by William Lyons, to create the new Daimler lorry, then when William acquired Guy at a bargain price he created the “Big Jaguar”, Big J range, to be built at Wolverhampton. Yet retained the basic lorry formula, forsaking the air suspension, and disc brakes of Guy`s psv ranges, sticking to the simple and basic cart spring, drum, propriatory mechanical specification. Yet Guy had tried their own tilting version of the Sankey built LAD cab, but the torsion bar employed there was forsaken for a bolt/mechanical screw jack for Motor Panels cab shell. Yet perhaps the success of Guy in the volume fleet market was down to the simple design after all.

Scammells Crusader, perhaps the best looking, (or was the ERF European more handsome)? of Motor Panels cabbed lorries. A fleet vehicle, designed by NFCs Walter Batstone and Scammell, full of innovative ideas, the hinged radiator being one, but perhaps Watfords finest could have learned from Guys simple engineering. True, they put in the big power Detroits, but Guys forgotten 44ton plus 8x4 was something else. And the Crusader never equalled the volume registrations that the Big J achieved, even more telling was the fact that the Crusaders natural customer and parent, NFC registered more Big J tractor units than Crusaders.

But then we must consider the ERF European offerings, (and may I refer you to the excellent factual postings by our Belgian friends on this subject on an adjacent thread…really good information). Again a much underated offering, and I remember my good friend the late Pat Kennet and I discussing this very subject late one night in the very high rise bar of Lyons circular Sofitel tower, following one of Truck Magazines Eurotests where a 335 ■■■■■■■ Europeans had been evaluated. Pats comment stuck with me…“potentially it is a Euro beater…but they, (ERFS then management) do not know how to market or sell it, let alone realise what they have got, they are more interested in Cheshires TIV, (total industry volume of registrations of new trucks), than what the potential is in Belgium/Holland, France and Switzerland”

I have paraphrased, for it is some years since, but Pat and I were old friends, there was no guard, we were both patriotic Britons, and were watching, (and involved) in the twilight of our British industry…and not enjoying it at all! Like watching your friends sleep walk over a cliff edge!

The root of the problem…the UK political disregard for both the road transport industry, and all those involve within it. A totally insular attitude towards the potential compatability between UK and European legislation on vehicle dimensions, weights, axle and gross, and the use of sleeper cabs for Uk domestic work. This despite pleading at Brussels door to "let the UK into your club "! This attitude tied the UK manufacturers to a ludicrous set of parameters in terms of vehicle specifications that stultified their designs, and forced them into a complete state of non competitiveness for the opening of the free market , and in turn gave their customers, and in particular the Hire and Reward sector no alternative but to seek alternative, (European) suppliers!

Thus saying I shall now partake of my nightly Bollinger…for no UK vineyard will ever succeed to produce such nectar, and sadly reflect upon those rusting examples of driver environment built in sunny Coventry

Cheerio for now.

[bewick]

Regarding the rustproofing discussion,in the mid '70’s I had a local chap from Kendal rustproof 3 new Big J’s and 3 new Seddon 32/4’s he worked for a number of new car franchises in the area when the battle against rust was at it’s height.Following the treatment none of these motors suffered rusting in the usual places but we didn’t run them for an extented period so I couldn’t comment on them in later years with other operators but IMO the rust would only have been stemmed for a year or two when the Tin worm would,no doubt,have triumphed in the end Bewick.

[punchy_dan]

I’d like to catch the man who put the sponges in the ends of the ERF cab frames !

[zb_anorak]

Dan Punchard:
I’d like to catch the man who put the sponges in the ends of the ERF cab frames !

My decaying memory contains hazy images of bits of sponge falling out of rotten car shells, from my days meddling with them. God knows why they were there. I can only guess that they were to prevent the long box sections resonating like organ pipes, at odd frequencies.

Regarding ERF steelwork, the CM report on the B series launch stated that the cab frame was made from 14G (2.0mm thick) steel, most panels on “normal” vehicles being 20G (1.0mm). How did the steel parts of the ERF cabs cope with the tinworm?

[punchy_dan]

On the e series cabs ERFs had some bad steel around 1990/1 iam not too sure on the dates,caused some rotten cab sub frames ,may be someone on here can shed more light on this.

[3300john]

Dan Punchard:
On the e series cabs ERFs had some bad steel around 1990/1 iam not too sure on the dates,caused some rotten cab sub frames ,may be someone on here can shed more light on this.

Hiya not certain who made the cab frame for ERF, i do know they was transported from somewhere down the M6. I used to see them on their way to Sandbach on that long single axle trailer.they was sprayed black,
it was only that i knew what they was that i knew where they was going. they was just a black frame.
John

[zb_anorak]

3300John:

Dan Punchard:
On the e series cabs ERFs had some bad steel around 1990/1 iam not too sure on the dates,caused some rotten cab sub frames ,may be someone on here can shed more light on this.

Hiya not certain who made the cab frame for ERF, i do know they was transported from somewhere down the M6. I used to see them on their way to Sandbach on that long single axle trailer.they was sprayed black,
it was only that i knew what they was that i knew where they was going. they was just a black frame.
John

Sounds like there was plenty of opportunities for variability in the corrosion resistance of those frames: a quick blow-over with carriage primer, then out into all weathers, with at least two handling operations before they got into the shed at Sandbach. Would the loaders and drivers have given a ■■■■ about damage to the black paint? Would the fabricator have given a second thought to leaving a batch of frames out in the yard over Christmas? I bet the summer ones lasted longer!

[rivits]

With regard to the posts mentioning how some vehicles rotted away ie, Guy Big J, Seddon Atkinson 400 , Motor Panels cabs etc, I think a lot of this was down to a complete lack of any anti corrosion measures being took. A lot of cars from the same era were horrific for rust, I mean when did you ever see a Vauxhall Viva whether it be an HA, HB or HC that was 2yrs old and didnt have holes in the front wings you could put your fist into?? A lot of car and commercial manufacturers were supplied with steel coils from British Steels Gartcosh Strip Mill. It supplied not only British Manufacturers but also Mercedes Benz, BMW, VW-Audi to name but a few. There however was always a story going around that the steel Vauxhall was supplied with was so much thinner than what went to BL, Ford and Chrysler hence how some of the Vauxhall cars dissolved like an alka- seltzer in a glass of water. Then they had the cheek to say Datsuns and Toyotas etc rusted bad!!! Yes they did however at least they were reliable!!!. I work for ARR Craib Transport who operate a large number of DAF XF’s , excellent all round motor however the gutters above the doors are terrible for rusting, as is the panel above the windscreen!!!

[straight_eight]

Dan Punchard:
On the e series cabs ERFs had some bad steel around 1990/1 iam not too sure on the dates,caused some rotten cab sub frames ,may be someone on here can shed more light on this.

I seem to remember a recall of some E series around the time the EC was launched, i’m sure that was something to do with the cabs??
B,C and E series are prone to footwell panel rot, especialy the left hand side, and the seat brackets can fail at the weld. Smaller metal items around the front of the cab are more common problems as far as rot is concerned, such as the frame work that holds the lower step and indicator/light panels ect, these often rot and need replacing (an easy job). Some B series suffered the top hinge of the door pulling away from the frame, due to the heavy weight of the doors flexing the hinge fixings and eventually failing. But i must admit that i have not ever read or heard alot about problems with the frame in general, i think it was a very sound design on the whole.
Chris.

[robert1952]

Saviem:
Evening all, well I was was given a new little computer for Christmas, …and I`m b…d if I can use it! Me spectacles are not strong enough to see these little keys, heaven only knows how I am supposed to carry on!

I suppose my problem is a bit like that encountered by Coventrys Motor Panels people..........they dealt with what they could see, (painted it), and forgot what they could not.......do not know what happened in Sweden, but when I was at Hartshornes even F86, and F88 cabs I had sold new, were corroding in 12 months!

Zeibart did work, (but it depended on who applied it…diligence I suppose), but without any form of corrosion inhibitor…watch out. One only has to remember the motorcars of the same period," hubble bubble where has my money gone"!

Funny old thing, the Guy/Scammell comparison…

.Guy, designed by Cliff Elliott, recruited from Dodge by William Lyons, to create the new Daimler lorry, then when William acquired Guy at a bargain price he created the “Big Jaguar”, Big J range, to be built at Wolverhampton. Yet retained the basic lorry formula, forsaking the air suspension, and disc brakes of Guy`s psv ranges, sticking to the simple and basic cart spring, drum, propriatory mechanical specification. Yet Guy had tried their own tilting version of the Sankey built LAD cab, but the torsion bar employed there was forsaken for a bolt/mechanical screw jack for Motor Panels cab shell. Yet perhaps the success of Guy in the volume fleet market was down to the simple design after all.

Scammells Crusader, perhaps the best looking, (or was the ERF European more handsome)? of Motor Panels cabbed lorries. A fleet vehicle, designed by NFCs Walter Batstone and Scammell, full of innovative ideas, the hinged radiator being one, but perhaps Watfords finest could have learned from Guys simple engineering. True, they put in the big power Detroits, but Guys forgotten 44ton plus 8x4 was something else. And the Crusader never equalled the volume registrations that the Big J achieved, even more telling was the fact that the Crusaders natural customer and parent, NFC registered more Big J tractor units than Crusaders.

But then we must consider the ERF European offerings, (and may I refer you to the excellent factual postings by our Belgian friends on this subject on an adjacent thread…really good information). Again a much underated offering, and I remember my good friend the late Pat Kennet and I discussing this very subject late one night in the very high rise bar of Lyons circular Sofitel tower, following one of Truck Magazines Eurotests where a 335 ■■■■■■■ Europeans had been evaluated. Pats comment stuck with me…“potentially it is a Euro beater…but they, (ERFS then management) do not know how to market or sell it, let alone realise what they have got, they are more interested in Cheshires TIV, (total industry volume of registrations of new trucks), than what the potential is in Belgium/Holland, France and Switzerland”

I have paraphrased, for it is some years since, but Pat and I were old friends, there was no guard, we were both patriotic Britons, and were watching, (and involved) in the twilight of our British industry…and not enjoying it at all! Like watching your friends sleep walk over a cliff edge!

The root of the problem…the UK political disregard for both the road transport industry, and all those involve within it. A totally insular attitude towards the potential compatability between UK and European legislation on vehicle dimensions, weights, axle and gross, and the use of sleeper cabs for Uk domestic work. This despite pleading at Brussels door to "let the UK into your club "! This attitude tied the UK manufacturers to a ludicrous set of parameters in terms of vehicle specifications that stultified their designs, and forced them into a complete state of non competitiveness for the opening of the free market , and in turn gave their customers, and in particular the Hire and Reward sector no alternative but to seek alternative, (European) suppliers!

Thus saying I shall now partake of my nightly Bollinger…for no UK vineyard will ever succeed to produce such nectar, and sadly reflect upon those rusting examples of driver environment built in sunny Coventry

Cheerio for now.

You mention in a little detail the ERF ‘European’ above. This would certainly be my choice of ‘the best British built long haul truck ever’ - however, perhaps we should say the best British assembled truck, as the engine and gearbox were American. Picture of the true long-hauler below:

[brs_fh66]

When I first came to WA in the mid 60s, I worked for Gascoyne Trading running north out of Perth. We had old Fodens with a Gardner 150 and a 12-speed epicylic box loaded to 36.5 tons. I was on a regular run to Port Hedland with a chiller box for the 2000 mile round trip with about half the distance on dirt roads. We drove 2-up and the old Fodens had a max speed of 38 mph. I don’t remember any breakdowns and the only thing that stopped us were floods. This shot was taken in about 1969 at the Overlander Road House at the 487 mile peg near the Shark Bay turnoff. They would have to be the roughest heap of crap that anyone has ever driven, but at least they wouldn’t stop. No heaters, no air con, just a water bag under the left hand headlight. It was sheer luxury when they were replaced by the big Merc 2624s. These were so smooth on the dirt roads that you could easily break drive springs.

[harry_gill]

BRS FH66:
When I first came to WA in the mid 60s, I worked for Gascoyne Trading running north out of Perth. We had old Fodens with a Gardner 150 and a 12-speed epicylic box loaded to 36.5 tons. I was on a regular run to Port Hedland with a chiller box for the 2000 mile round trip with about half the distance on dirt roads. We drove 2-up and the old Fodens had a max speed of 38 mph. I don’t remember any breakdowns and the only thing that stopped us were floods. This shot was taken in about 1969 at the Overlander Road House at the 487 mile peg near the Shark Bay turnoff. They would have to be the roughest heap of crap that anyone has ever driven, but at least they wouldn’t stop. No heaters, no air con, just a water bag under the left hand headlight. It was sheer luxury when they were replaced by the big Merc 2624s. These were so smooth on the dirt roads that you could easily break drive springs.

hiya,
Bloody hell a 150 Percy in a double drive tractor it’s a wonder it would get
anywhere even without a loaded trailer, did you ever get into top gear, I
have driven 150 powered stuff at 28 ton gross and that was hard work and
the things I drove only had six sprockets in the box and the first one was
frequently used awful things when you think back and the only “bad” thing
about them was they never “blew” up.
thanks harry, long retired.

[8lxbv8brian]

robert1952 said,
however, perhaps we should say the best British assembled truck, as the engine and gearbox were American.
I agree with you on that, for a British long haul i would say the Foden S80/83 with the Gardner 8lxb - and the jennings sleeper
conversion would have my vote as for me it was the last true bit of british parts assembled together that worked well,

[sammyopisite]

8LXBV8BRIAN:
robert1952 said,
however, perhaps we should say the best British assembled truck, as the engine and gearbox were American.
I agree with you on that, for a British long haul i would say the Foden S80/83 with the Gardner 8lxb - and the jennings sleeper
conversion would have my vote as for me it was the last true bit of british parts assembled together that worked well,

I would say the Scammell Crusader was a better wagon and they never did an upgrade of the cab from the 60s until they finished it in the 80s and there was quite a few that ran into Europe and beyond.

If BL had developed the Crusader it would have been at least the equal of the Europeans as it out performed them for a few years but they caught it up and then went past them.

The best wagon for longtiverty has to be the Scammell Highwayman as I can’t recall any other model being ran as a fleet for over 30 years like Sid Harrison ran his Highwayman into the 90s from the 60s and the Highwayman as been into Europe in the late 60s and early 70s ( they were unbreakable as well.)

cheers Johnnie

[retired_old_fart]

8LXBV8BRIAN:
robert1952 said,
however, perhaps we should say the best British assembled truck, as the engine and gearbox were American.
I agree with you on that, for a British long haul i would say the Foden S80/83 with the Gardner 8lxb - and the jennings sleeper
conversion would have my vote as for me it was the last true bit of british parts assembled together that worked well,

Don’t talk to me about bl**dy Jennings nest boxes! When I went from the Big “A” with that rabbit hutch to a Volvo 88 I thought all my Christmasses had come at once.

[brs_fh66]

Harry, they used to fly downhill between Northampton and Geraldton heading south, especially when you put the sods into ‘Mexican overdrive’. 36.5 tons was the then legal max for a bogie-bogie, however, when we went onto the scales before one trip, we came in at 41.5 tons. Going north fully loaded they were so slow that after crossing the Murchison River and heading into the flatter country, one offsider and myself would stop and check the tyres and load, find a stick of the right length to jam the accelerator wide open, strap a magnetic chess board to the bonnet cover and, when we were flying at 38mph, play chess for the next 200 miles to Carnarvon. If you ran off the edge of the bitumen on this stretch of road, there were very few obstacles to hit and very little traffic to worry about. Anything to alleviate the boredom.

harry_gill:

BRS FH66:
When I first came to WA in the mid 60s, I worked for Gascoyne Trading running north out of Perth. We had old Fodens with a Gardner 150 and a 12-speed epicylic box loaded to 36.5 tons. I was on a regular run to Port Hedland with a chiller box for the 2000 mile round trip with about half the distance on dirt roads. We drove 2-up and the old Fodens had a max speed of 38 mph. I don’t remember any breakdowns and the only thing that stopped us were floods. This shot was taken in about 1969 at the Overlander Road House at the 487 mile peg near the Shark Bay turnoff. They would have to be the roughest heap of crap that anyone has ever driven, but at least they wouldn’t stop. No heaters, no air con, just a water bag under the left hand headlight. It was sheer luxury when they were replaced by the big Merc 2624s. These were so smooth on the dirt roads that you could easily break drive springs.

hiya,
Bloody hell a 150 Percy in a double drive tractor it’s a wonder it would get
anywhere even without a loaded trailer, did you ever get into top gear, I
have driven 150 powered stuff at 28 ton gross and that was hard work and
the things I drove only had six sprockets in the box and the first one was
frequently used awful things when you think back and the only “bad” thing
about them was they never “blew” up.
thanks harry, long retired.

[shugg]

I know it could be a play on words but surely we still build !!! [ from parts manufactured in Europe ] at Leyland ?.