ROG, It’s now two days since you said you’d been told about this rather strange rule that does not seem to be in the regulations, and still we wait for a post to confirm that you actually were told that after 4 1/2 hours driving you have to have a break even though you’re going onto a daily rest period.
So when can we expect confirmation that you actually were told this ?
tachograph:
ROG, It’s now two days since you said you’d been told about this rather strange rule that does not seem to be in the regulations, and still we wait for a post to confirm that you actually were told that after 4 1/2 hours driving you have to have a break even though you’re going onto a daily rest period.So when can we expect confirmation that you actually were told this ?
I have sent an e-mail to the person I was referring to but if you wish to know sooner then e-mail me and I will give you a contact number so you can confirm this info
tachograph:
ROG, It’s now two days since you said you’d been told about this rather strange rule that does not seem to be in the regulations, and still we wait for a post to confirm that you actually were told that after 4 1/2 hours driving you have to have a break even though you’re going onto a daily rest period.So when can we expect confirmation that you actually were told this ?
Tachograph, you know it is the Private Messaging System to be renamed by Reed Boardall or whoever owns this site now to simply PMS
I was thinking about this last night while parked up, and read the new AETR rules a few times and I have come to the conclusion it is actually pretty clear. It’s a little like the WTD 6 hour thing where the last part of the section on breaks is crucial and when people don’t read that bit they get the 6 hour break requirements wrong. 
Article 7 has all the required info.
Article 7
Breaks
1. After a driving period of four and a half hours, a driver shall take an
uninterrupted break of not less than 45 minutes, unless he begins a rest period.
2. This break, as defined in article 1, paragraph (n), of this Agreement, may be
replaced by a break of at least 15 minutes followed by a break of at least 30 minutes
each distributed over the driving period or immediately after this period in such a way
as to comply with the provisions of paragraph 1.
3. For the purposes of this article, the waiting time and time not devoted to driving
spent in a vehicle in motion, a ferryboat or a train shall not be regarded as ‘other work’,
as defined in article 1, paragraph (q), of this Agreement, and will be able to be qualified
as a “break”.
4. The breaks observed under this article may not be regarded as daily rest periods.
As with any regulation every part is important.
7.1 states the maximum you can drive before a break is required and how long that break must be. That’s straightforward enough
7.2 overrides the requirement in 7.1 to have an uninterrupted 45 minute break by allowing it to be replaced with two periods.
7.3 clarifies that time spent on a ferry or train doesn’t count as other work, even though you are working for your employer, and can be break. In other words it overrides Article 1(q), although that derogation is also contained in Article 1(q) anyway.
7.4 makes it clear you cannot use any break required under Article 7 as part of a rest period, but, importantly with regard to this discussion, only periods used to satisfy the requirements of Article 7.
So, when no break is required for Article 7 a 3 hour period can be used as part of a split daily rest.
Example 1
Drive 2.5 hours
Rest 3 hours
Drive 1.5 hours
Rest 9 hours
4.5 hours driving not accumulated so no break required/observed under Article 7.
When a break is required under Article 7, if you just have 3 hours it cannot be used as part of a split daily rest due to 30 or 45 minutes being required to satisfy Article 7 and as no break under Article 7 can be used as daily rest it would have to be deducted from the 3 hours, leaving you either 2.25, 2.75 or 2.5 hours of rest neither of which are long enough for the first part of a split daily rest period.
Example 2
Drive 2.5 hours
Rest 3 hours
Drive 2.5 hours
Rest 9 hours
That would not be a split daily rest under the AETR rules as 45 minutes of the 3 hour period is a break observed for Article 7 and therefore cannot be used as rest and leaving the period too short to be used toward a split daily rest.
Example 3
Drive 2 hours
Rest 3 hours
Drive 2.5 hour
Break 45 minutes
Drive 3 hours
Rest 9 hours
That one would be a split daily rest as the 45 minute break satisfies Article 7 so all of the earlier 3 hour period can be regarded as rest. The driving time clock would be reset after both the 3 hour period and the 45 minute period.
If the 45 minute period was instead 30 minutes that would change things. 15 minutes of the 3 hour period would then be break observed for Article 7 and would therefore leave the period 15 minutes too short to be used toward a split daily rest.
Example 4
Drive 2 hours
Rest/break 3 hours 45 minutes
Drive 4 hours
Rest 9 hours
That one would also be a split daily rest as 45 minutes of the long rest period meet the requirements of Article 7 and still leaves 3 hours as the first part of a split daily rest.
While it is correct that any rest period will reset the 4.5 hour driving clock Article 7.4 prevents a period under AETR rules counting as both break and rest, which is allowed under the EU rules because there is nothing with the wording of Article 7.4 in the EU regulations.
7.4. The breaks observed under this article may not be regarded as daily rest periods.
The 4 words in red are the crucial ones. If the period is being observed for Article 7 then part of it can only be break and not rest as well. If it isn’t being observed for Article 7 it can be used toward a split daily rest, provided it is at least 3 hours.
The only possible fly in the ointment, and the point being used to argue against this, is that part of 7.1 which says unless he begins a rest period. But, when does a rest period begin? If you take a reduced or regular daily or weekly rest period it is pretty clear when they begin but what about a split daily rest?
I think the key is a daily or weekly rest period begins when you finish your shift and you don’t finish your shift when you begin the shorter of the two split rest periods, therefore I think the fly has been removed from the ointment as you don’t actually begin the split daily rest until you finish your shift. It is only the fact you had a period of at least 3 hours during the shift which stops the 9 hours being counted as a reduced rest and makes it a regular daily rest period. And it is clear when a regular daily rest period begins, when you finish your shift.
Coffeeholic:
The 4 words in red are the crucial ones. If the period is being observed for Article 7 then part of it can only be break and not rest as well. If it isn’t being observed for Article 7 it can be used toward a split daily rest, provided it is at least 3 hours.
Thank you for the explanation for what I was VERY reliably informed 
I don’t have time to study this right now Neil but after a quick read I have to disagree with this:
Coffeeholic:
therefore I think the fly has been removed from the ointment as you don’t actually begin the split daily rest until you finish your shift
There’s nothing that I’ve noticed in the regulations that suggests that the first part of a daily rest is anything other than a rest period which can be used as part of a split daily rest period.
Article 7.1 makes it clear that you don’t need to observe the driver break requirement if you’re starting a rest period.
ROG:
Thank you for the explanation for what I was VERY reliably informed
So who was this person who so “VERY reliably informed” you of this but chooses not to post themselves, surely not the union rep again 
ROG, first you post something as if it was your own information then when it’s questioned you claim that someone informed you of the information that just happens to back up what you posted, this scenario seems to ring a bell
tachograph:
I don’t have time to study this right now Neil but after a quick read I have to disagree with this:Coffeeholic:
therefore I think the fly has been removed from the ointment as you don’t actually begin the split daily rest until you finish your shiftThere’s nothing that I’ve noticed in the regulations that suggests that the first part of a daily rest is anything other than a rest period which can be used as part of a split daily rest period.
Indeed, but you begin a rest period, weekly or daily, when you finish your shift but you don’t finish your shift when you take the shorter part.
tachograph:
Article 7.1 makes it clear that you don’t need to observe the driver break requirement if you’re starting a rest period.
It says rest period and the term rest period used at any time in the regulations refers to a Regular or Reduced daily rest or a Regular or Reduced weekly rest. There isn’t actually such a thing as a split daily rest, although we all tend to use that term for convenience. What we are discussing here is a regular daily rest period, albeit one taken in two parts. The part during the shift simply makes what would normally be a reduced daily rest into a regular one. Yes 7.1 says you don’t need to take a break if you begin a rest period and all rest periods, whether regular or reduced, begin at the end of the shift
You are doing what we always advise people not to do. You are focusing on one part of the regulations and ignoring other relevant parts, crucially 7.4 which clearly states that a break required to satisfy Article 7 cannot be both break and rest.
tachograph:
ROG:
Thank you for the explanation for what I was VERY reliably informedSo who was this person who so “VERY reliably informed” you of this but chooses not to post themselves, surely not the union rep again
ROG, first you post something as if it was your own information then when it’s questioned you claim that someone informed you of the information that just happens to back up what you posted, this scenario seems to ring a bell
It’s obvious who isn’t it? I agree he was hoping to pass it off as something he had worked out for himself but right from the first time he mentioned it I knew who had given him the information.
If he had worked it out for himself he wouldn’t have cocked it up when he wrote
ROG:
Under the new (2010) AETR regs a driver cannot use REST as a driving BREAK
That’s clearly nonsense and the AETR rules don’t say that anywhere.
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
ROG:
Thank you for the explanation for what I was VERY reliably informedSo who was this person who so “VERY reliably informed” you of this but chooses not to post themselves, surely not the union rep again
It’s obvious who isn’t it?
Yes I know, I was being facetious 
Coffeeholic:
You are doing what we always advise people not to do. You are focusing on one part of the regulations and ignoring other relevant parts
I don’t think I am to be honest
I don’t see why you say the daily rest period starts at the end of the shift, it starts when you start the daily rest period, which in the case of what we should for convenience call a split daily rest period is at the start of the first 3 hours.
I’ve just very quickly gone through the AETR regulations and as far as I can see the only relevant stipulation for a daily rest period is that if falls within the 24 hour period from the end of the last daily rest period, nowhere does it say that the entire daily rest period has to taken at the end of the shift.
A lot has been said about the first part of a split daily rest period but surely according to your argument if you drive for 4 1/2 consecutive hours then immediately finish work, you must add 45 minutes to the daily rest period and have 11 .75 or 9 .75 hours daily rest, or have I missed something ?
Maybe I’m being thick but the way I read article 7 is that the breaks taken to comply with article 7 cannot be regarded as daily rest, but article 7 starts by saying that you don’t need to take the break if you’re starting a rest period.
tachograph:
I don’t see why you say the daily rest period starts at the end of the shift, it starts when you start the daily rest period, which in the case of what we should for convenience call a split daily rest period is at the start of the first 3 hours.
On an analogue chart with a period of 3 hours rest during the shift where would you mark SDR and EDR for employers who require it or as often recommended as good practice by VOSA?
Making the manual entries on a digital tachograph where would the begin shift and end shift entries be? They wouldn’t be either side of the 3 hour period or you will attract infringements for insufficient daily rest.
tachograph:
A lot has been said about the first part of a split daily rest period but surely according to your argument if you drive for 4 1/2 consecutive hours then immediately finish work, you must add 45 minutes to the daily rest period and have 11 .75 or 9 .75 hours daily rest, or have I missed something ?
No, you don’t need to add three quarters of an hour to the 9 or 11 hours because you are beginning a rest period and 7.1 says you don’t need a break if you are doing that.
tachograph:
Maybe I’m being thick but the way I read article 7 is that the breaks taken to comply with article 7 cannot be regarded as daily rest, but article 7 starts by saying that you don’t need to take the break if you’re starting a rest period.
You have to go through the various parts of Article 7 in order and doing so means that 7.4 trumps 7.1.
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
I don’t see why you say the daily rest period starts at the end of the shift, it starts when you start the daily rest period, which in the case of what we should for convenience call a split daily rest period is at the start of the first 3 hours.On an analogue chart with a period of 3 hours rest during the shift where would you mark SDR and EDR for employers who require it or as often recommended as good practice by VOSA?
It may be good practice to mark the start and end of rest periods in such a way but it’s not a legal requirement and hardly takes presedence over the regulations.
Anyway in such a case I would write EOD rather than SDR, but then I do anyway
Coffeeholic:
Making the manual entries on a digital tachograph where would the begin shift and end shift entries be? They wouldn’t be either side of the 3 hour period or you will attract infringements for insufficient daily rest.
But this is the point I’m making, there’s nothing in the regulations that says that the entire daily rest period has to be at the end of the shift, so you would put the place where the shift ended just like you always do.
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
A lot has been said about the first part of a split daily rest period but surely according to your argument if you drive for 4 1/2 consecutive hours then immediately finish work, you must add 45 minutes to the daily rest period and have 11 .75 or 9 .75 hours daily rest, or have I missed something ?No, you don’t need to add three quarters of an hour to the 9 or 11 hours because you are beginning a rest period and 7.1 says you don’t need a break if you are doing that.
I would say you started the rest period when you started the 3 hours rest and as you say article 7.1 says you don’t need a break if your going onto rest.
As far as I can see no-where in the regulations does it suggest that the first part of a split daily rest is not part of a regular daily rest, in fact it actually says in article 1.i “this regular daily rest period may be taken in two periods”, which suggests to me that both periods are part of the same regular daily rest period.
Article 1
(i) “Regular daily rest period” means any period of rest of at least 11
hours. Alternatively, this regular daily rest period may be taken in two
periods, the first of which must be an uninterrupted period of at least 3
hours and the second an uninterrupted period of at least 9 hours;
Coffeeholic:
tachograph:
Maybe I’m being thick but the way I read article 7 is that the breaks taken to comply with article 7 cannot be regarded as daily rest, but article 7 starts by saying that you don’t need to take the break if you’re starting a rest period.You have to go through the various parts of Article 7 in order and doing so means that 7.4 trumps 7.1.
OK I’m going to be thick again
If 7.4 trumps 7.1 then it must apply to all parts of a daily rest, as I said I believe you start your daily rest when you start the first part of 3 hours or more, and there’s nothing in the regulations to suggest otherwise.
The current AETR rules use the same wording for breaks as the pre April 2007 EU rules and this was the situation under those regulations where a required break could not be used as rest. If you needed a break for reaching 4.5 hours you couldn’t take an hour, 2 hours or 4 hours and use all of it it when splitting your daily rest. So, with the same wording I don’t see how it would now be different.
ROG, first you post something as if it was your own information then when it’s questioned you claim that someone informed you of the information that just happens to back up what you posted, this scenario seems to ring a bell
Why is that such an issue?
When putting information on here do you always refer to where you learnt it from?
Firstly an apology to ROG for not wading into this one earlier. I’ve been away on a course for the last three days and although I got back last night I had a difficult decision to make when I got back - drink Stella or turn computer on, Stella won
The requirement for taking breaks from driving is one of the areas of difference between EU and AETR Regulation. Most, but not all, of the two Regulations aligned in September of last year when the AETR was updated. One of the areas of subtle difference is that a period of rest may not be treated as a ‘break’ from driving with regard to mid-shift ‘breaks’ when driving under the AETR. This used to be the case under the older EU rules, replaced in 2007 by (EC)561/2006, but is no-longer the case.
I’m not aware of anybody being prosecuted under these particular circumstances, but in reality the charge would be a straightforward one of either; fail to take sufficient break or fail to take sufficient daily rest. In either case the driver would be 45 minutes short of the break or rest required.
The European Court cases have resolved many of the issues regarding daily rest periods and daily driving periods. Part of the ruling clarified the position that if a driver failed to have sufficiently daily rest then all driving would be summed until a legal daily rest period had been taken. The ruling also clarified that where ‘split’ daily rest is taken, the longest part of the rest (at that time 8 hours but now 9) must be taken at the end of the working day.
As to the reasoning behind the ‘rest cannot be break’ argument. It probably stems from the previous requirement that the daily rest period could be split into no more than 3 chunks, that each chunk had to be at least one hour and one lump had to be at least 8 hours. Under these circumstances it was probably felt that a driver would have too little ‘rest’ during a day. In reality, who knows what was going through the minds of the legislators?
The simple answer to the OP questions is; if you are running ‘split daily rests’ under AETR you cannot count any of your 3 hour ‘rest’ period as a ‘break’ from driving. If you reach the 4 hours 30 minutes limit at the same time as you want to take your three hours ‘rest,’ then you will need to take a total period of 3 hours 45 minutes before you restart work or driving.
Coffeeholic:
The current AETR rules use the same wording for breaks as the pre April 2007 EU rules and this was the situation under those regulations where a required break could not be used as rest. If you needed a break for reaching 4.5 hours you couldn’t take an hour, 2 hours or 4 hours and use all of it it when splitting your daily rest. So, with the same wording I don’t see how it would now be different.
To be honest I don’t remember under the old regulations having to have a break if going onto rest, though to be fair I can’t remember what I did last month never mind four years ago 
Anyway Was this ever tested in court ?
I’m sticking to my guns on this one because article 7.1 clearly says that you don’t need the break if going onto rest and the first part of a split daily rest is in fact a rest period and is referred to as such in article 1 (i).
Article 7.4 simply says that the breaks observed (breaks taken) under article 7 cannot be regarded a daily rest.
Having said that as there is some doubt I would advise anyone to play on the side of caution until this can be positively answered.
Slightly off topic but have you noticed article 8 about ferry/train travel.
Does this basically say that a driver should not be on land and a ferry or train at the same time
I assume it means you can only interrupt the daily rest once before and once after the ferry/train journey but it does seem an odd way to phrase it.
Derogations from article 8
- By way of derogation from article 8, where a driver accompanies a vehicle
which is transported by ferryboat or train and takes a regular daily rest period, that
period may be interrupted not more than twice by other activities provided the following
conditions are fulfilled:
(a) That part of the daily rest period spent on land must be able to be taken before or
after the portion of the daily rest period taken on board the ferryboat or the train
ROG:
ROG, first you post something as if it was your own information then when it’s questioned you claim that someone informed you of the information that just happens to back up what you posted, this scenario seems to ring a bell
Why is that such an issue?
When putting information on here do you always refer to where you learnt it from?
Generally any information I have comes from the regulations which I quote all the time, I’ve never PMd or phoned or emailed anyone for an answer to a question so I can reply to a question here, so I think it should be fairly obvious where my information comes from 
The point is ROG that whilst you email people for answers then repeat them here as your own, you rarely seem to be able to back the replies up because you post answers you’ve been given but don’t understand and can’t explain which makes any sort of reasoned discussion impossible.
I’m not having a go ROG, I just think that if you answer a question you should be able to understand what you’ve written 
geebee45:
One of the areas of subtle difference is that a period of rest may not be treated as a ‘break’ from driving with regard to mid-shift ‘breaks’ when driving under the AETR.
With all due respect to yourself I have to ask where in the AETR regulations does it stipulate a difference between mid-shift rest periods and those at the end of the shift as far as it being treated as break is concerned ?
geebee45:
The European Court cases have resolved many of the issues regarding daily rest periods and daily driving periods. Part of the ruling clarified the position that if a driver failed to have sufficiently daily rest then all driving would be summed until a legal daily rest period had been taken. The ruling also clarified that where ‘split’ daily rest is taken, the longest part of the rest (at that time 8 hours but now 9) must be taken at the end of the working day.
I’m not doubting what you say but it would be interesting reading if you have a link to the European court cases in question.
The reasoning behind the longest part of a split daily rest being at the end of the shift is both logical and understandable, but it does not answer the question of where in the regulations it states that the first part of a split daily rest cannot be treated as break whilst the second part can.
tachograph:
The point is ROG that whilst you email people for answers then repeat them here as your own, you rarely seem to be able to back the replies up because you post answers you’ve been given but don’t understand and can’t explain.
I use e-mails phones and anything else I can to find a correct answer - better that way than guessing it
I’ve lost count as to how many times I’ve contacted the DSA, DVLA or VOSA to do the above
If someone asks a question and just wants a factual answer then that is what I have tried to provide
If they want to go into greater depth as to why that is the answer then that is another issue
geebee45:
Firstly an apology to ROG for not wading into this one earlier
No apology neccessary
I contact people such as your good self to find out the basic factual answer but leave any in-depth explanation to those than can explain why
tachograph:
ROG:
ROG, first you post something as if it was your own information then when it’s questioned you claim that someone informed you of the information that just happens to back up what you posted, this scenario seems to ring a bell
Why is that such an issue?
When putting information on here do you always refer to where you learnt it from?Generally any information I have comes from the regulations which I quote all the time, I’ve never PMd or phoned or emailed anyone for an answer to a question so I can reply to a question here, so I think it should be fairly obvious where my information comes from
This^
Exactly the same as me and if I don’t know the answer or can’t get it from reading the regulations I leave it well alone so someone who does have the knowledge can answer it.
The only times, and it was only a couple of times, I have ever emailed someone for the answer is when a subject has been going round in circles with people unable to accept what is in black and white in front of them. In that situation I have emailed VOSA or the DVLA for conformation which I can post in the thread.
ROG:
tachograph:
The point is ROG that whilst you email people for answers then repeat them here as your own, you rarely seem to be able to back the replies up because you post answers you’ve been given but don’t understand and can’t explain.I use e-mails phones and anything else I can to find a correct answer - better that way than guessing it
Yes it’s better than guessing.
However, if you don’t know would it not be better to leave it for people who do know the answer.There are plenty of people on here who can answer questions without having to start emailing people. You have an extensive knowledge of advance driving, driver training, the Highway Code and so on so why not stick to those subjects rather than the ones you don’t know about, especially when you don’t credit the people who have helped you and try to pass it off as your own. In those situations you are easily found out as you cannot back up what you are saying, or in the case of this thread get the thing arse about face and change it’s meaning.
ANSWERING QUESTIONS
Coffeeholic:
if I don’t know the answer or can’t get it from reading the regulations I leave it well alone so someone who does have the knowledge can answer it.
Are you saying that any answers given on this site require the person giving those answers to have knowledge of the law or regulation behind that answer before they give it?
Are you also saying that if they learned that answer from whatever sources then they must contribute that answer to those sources whether it was today or years ago?
Questioning an answer given is another issue as it might be that the person requires confirmation of an answer given and it would be at that point when help might be required from others who are more knowledgable
I know that the speed limit for LGVs on a SC is 40 max but I do not know where in the road traffic act to find the actual law so if someone asks the question then I will answer 40mph but then if the person asks for proof in law from me I would be stuck so does that mean I should not answer the question?
If it is to be a requirement to only answer questions if the person answering has the legal knowledge behind the answer or must contribute the answer to where they found it from then perhaps a new forum rule should be introduced…
I haven’t followed the whole thread but this looks familiar.