Hi all
I’m currently contemplating picking up a couple of horses near Lisbon and transporting back to the UK. I have the choice of using either a 4x4 and trailer or an ageing but reliable 7.5 tonner.
I have a couple of questions on the use of the latter :
Gross plated weight is 7490 Kgs, my reading suggests that when carrying livestock I would be exempt from the Bank Holiday/Sunday HGV restrictions in France & Spain but can somebody confirm that this would also be the case when running empty as the weight is under 7.5 tonnes (or any other reason?)
Seat belts are not fitted in this lorry but I have read in a couple of places that they need to be for Spain? Again has anybody got any definitive advice/sources on this?
Thanks
Graeme
p.s Bison Fute does have the 7.5 tonne limit which we sneak under but it’s really Span / Portugal I’m concerned about as I’ve only ever driven in France/BeneLux
You will be able to move using a 7.5t for private - or indeed commercial use throughout France, Spain and Portugal, although be prepared for a couple of stops and plenty of questions, certainly on the way back.
Not sure how you’ll get on without seat belts, but would suggest getting something fitted. Please keep in mind that the run down to Portugal can be hilly and hot, so if its an old truck be prepared…
How will you get on with resting the horses? Do you have anywhere en-route.
Sorry can provide more help. A 4x4 would be my preference.
With out boring people on a truck forum, your biggest issue will be when the horse papers are done the Portuguese are getting a bit hot on seeing the truck. There version of private sometimes differs slightly and it’s a long way to go just to find out they will not issue paperwork! On the running empty side I always have, just have interior lights on at night and to this day have not had an issue. The Spanish are mad for no seat belt fines! Why not get a transporter to collect them? One blow out or break down would cover the cost of 1. Al so bear in mind at the weekend any break down or tyre assistance is a lot thinner on the ground!
Hi all
Thank for the advice - the seat belt question is the main worry so I guess a set fitted would be the workaround. Having said that the 4x4 is looking to be the better option for a number of reasons (fuel economy being one) but taking the lorry does mean the convenience of sleeping quarters and galley are with you all the time - we’d take a week ambling down there in any case taking in some local colour.
Lairage is yet to be decided on depending on the route we decide to take back - considering Brittany Ferries Spain → UK but I’m not happy with the trailer there so it’d be lorry if we went that way with an overnight rest before the ferry.
Transporter is a possibility that we’ve yet to rule out but we are shifting three horses so the economics are leaning towards DIY (currently around £700 per horse for a Portugal based shipper - a little bit more for UK based ones) - although there may be the possibilty of combining with another owner to make up a five horse load in which case transporter would be the way to go.
Paperwork? Ahhhh - EU harmonisation - don’t make me laugh - not just horses but anything that moves including lorries - being private is a big help but, as you say, the definition of ‘private’ varies considerably across the EU but if you use the 4x4 and trailer nobody bothers you - stick the same horses & humans in a 7.5 tonner and, all of a sudden, everybody wants a look at your documents - if you go to a European event there’s not too many non-UK lorries but loads of trailers - I wonder why?
Having said that though I’ve not had a problem in the EU as we just take the ‘kitchen sink’ as regards paperwork and I also have the Animal Transport Certificate for horses (but nobody has ever asked to see that one on The Continent yet) - shrugging shoulders also helps.
Thanks
Graeme
How much are you hoping to save by doing it yourself? If you can get them moved for £700 or so per horse, by the time you factor fuel/ferries/tolls/paperwork/etc I would be surprised if you could do it as cheap. Factor in your time as an amount and it would certainly cost you money.
Just out of interest, you say its an aging but reliable truck, being nosey, how old and what make? If you have a problem, parts could very well be a problem.
Something else I have just thought of, can you guaruntee that once you have loaded the 3 horses with you and all your gear will you be definately under 7490kg?
Hi
The break even price for the lorry is around £2,250 - £2,500 as it runs at about 50p mile, but rather than factor in our time on top of that we’d do the opposite and factor in a road trip (which is what we usually do) - the 4x4 costs out at about 25p a mile (LPG) when towing so that’s plainly a lot cheaper but then you have to cost in overnight stays.
The lorry? Ok - no falling about laughing - it’s a AWD TL - for the youngsters that’s not a fancy Japanese car but the Last of The Dinosaurs - it’s a Vanplan build on a 7.5 tonne SWB chassis and has done just less than 100,000 miles from new in 1990. Spare parts are hard enough to get in the UK let alone Europe (unless you just happen to be in Turkey) so we have GB/EU recovery on it (EU recovery gets you recovered back to UK home base if vehicle cannot be fixed in situ).
Without any horses but all the kit/people/dogs etc. the lorry is 5.4 tonnes on the weighbridge (5.3 at Dover once but maybe I had helium in the tyres) so the three horses in mind (ages 1,2&3 and a small breed) are not going to put us over the top unless we stock up with too much falling over juice at Calais. It’ll sit at 56mph all day on the motorway but anything more than that is hard work so we tend to go along at whatever speed most of the ‘proper lorries’ are moving at (no tailgating though as it’s drum brakes all round).
In the time we’ve had the TL it’s been to Belgium x 2, Holland x 2 & Scotland x 2 and never missed a beat other than a front tyre blowout on the M5 in a torrential downpour (of course). I know Scotland is not really ‘abroad’ (yet) but from where we used to live it was quicker getting to France.
Solely based on economics/common sense then a transporter makes sense but if you have the time (and the recovery!) then it’s something a bit different to do over Easter.
An AWD is one thing I would not want to go that far in. Spain is a truck killer if it is not up to it! You could have a very long wait for parts. Also remember that other than P&O out of Dover nearly all ferry companies charge a livestock surcharge of at least 25% and you are at the mercy of the captain if he will take you! Also be carefull if you go for the cheapest transporter option. It has been know for horses coming to the UK to come from POrtugal via DEnmark!!
give john parker a ring in kent they are out that way weekly they move horses all over europe you might get a decent deal if they are down that way picking others up or dropping of you never know
Hi Hanson
John Parker is one of the three companies that have been quoting us - currently we’re trying to get a load of five together which pulls the individual prices down a fair old bit which would make our share of the cost cheaper than a DIY job - there’s a fair few transporters/lairage around Dover and Parkers are one of the companies that have a standing arrangement to use the Tunnel.
If the ferries are unwilling to take livestock due to the weather this makes them a good possibility as the extra fee for the Tunnel outweighs the expense of hanging around waiting for the ferry to say ‘go’ which can sometimes mean 3-4 days at lairage (and if you’re the one hanging around at the stables by Transmarck reduces the consumption of huge meals).
Eurotunnel are difficult to pin down on the horse travel question - whilst they do say that they will take a properly certified vehicle on their website actually getting a ‘yes’ from a real, live human is apparently impossible - and, even if we could would that ‘yes’ translate to ‘oui’ or ‘non’ at Coquelles?
Graeme
If you get some time off in Lisbon or Lisboa, visit the wind surfers beach at Praia de Guincho, if you are in the centre of the very pretty town and marina in Cascais on the Estoril coast just head West along the coast, you can walk it from Cascais, but allow a few hours.
From Cascais you can get the bus or train to Lisbon city centre, the old Expo site is worth a look, an aquarium, and lots of good places to eat and wonder around.
Once at the beach at Guincho there is a small village behind the large sand dunes, and have great roasted sardines and local meals to try and cheaper.
Some nearby towns with lots of historic monuments to see are Sintra, the Portugusese have a 1000 ways to cook their cod or Bachalou,the beer is Sagres or Super Bock, they had a red fruit syrup called Groshela, the nick name for it is a Tango or cerveza con groshela por favor.
Remove all valuables from your vehicle at all times.
If you cross the big bridge, there is the beach resort of Caparica and Setubal to chill out and watch the world go by.
When coming back pass through Nazare, Peniche, and Figueira de Foz on the Atlantic coast,if you keep going and end up in Porto, you can come home through Spain that way via Burgos and Vitoria to Irun/Hendaye.
Horse boxes can travell on the train. It is pretty much reserved got transporters as you need a type 2 container certificate! The cost is quite steep as well (£400) each direction as you have to travell on the passenger train not freight. Also you must book through agents ( only 5 ) as all your vehicle details have to be checked before booking can be made.
Not sure what Lisbon is like when it comes to checking on vehicle authorization cert, I’ve had to produce mine a few times in Portugal before they’d do the traces documents, coming from Lisbon you would need at least 2 lairage stops before Calais, I usually do 1 in Spain and another mid France. Not sure, but I recon you’ll have to abide by tacho laws as well, can’t see the French missing the opportunity of a fat fine, shrugging your shoulders and not understanding doesn’t wash with anyone, as for seatbelt law, my understanding is if they were never fitted then you won’t be fined, only fined if truck has them and your not using them. Also nobody is allowed to travel in the living area, caught in there incurs a fine and a taxi to nearest train station for any passengers over the legal seating capacity of the cab.
I was wondering about the Spanish UK ferries to break the journey for the lorry. I have never done livestock but seen horses on the ferries. Can Defra give you any info on the best way to do it?
In my opinion i would use the services of a proffesional horse transport firm even though the cost will be higher, but that would out weigh the fines of doing it yourself.
A firm will have all the contacts for the vets in the area, all the correct vehicle paper work,a driver and groom/stable hand that have experience of driving all over Europe and beyond, if their truck breaks down they are covered for that, along with tyre blow outs along the way,and they have insurance for the horses,i am sure you could travel with the horses.
Dealing with foreign Police is not a pleasant way to waste your day or weeks to raise the money for the deposit for the court, that is what you will pay at the road side, the vehicle documents are taken from you.
They have immobilsed the vehicle but are not allowed to ceize your keys, and most likely they stop you in a remote area and a very long walk or bus ride to raid the ATM for the daily limit of £300.
Somebody in the UK will have to wire the fine to a Western Union office.
I was stuck in Spain for 7 days for something that was not my fault, the fine was 3000 euros.
Another option is to drive at night, cooler for the horses and sleep in the day, less chance of being stopped, and you can go faster at night.
But saying that at the toll booths or peages, they seem to be there 24 hours for Douane and Customs controls, the last 3 peages towards the Spanish border are the worse ones in France,Biaritz area to Irun/Hendaye.
The Basque area is noted for high on the spot fines, and Navara too, mainland Spain is not too bad, apart from the motorbike units of the Guardia Civil.
Hi
Food for thought coming through thick & fast - taking the Spain → Plymouth/Portsmouth ferry is an option but one I’d only use if in a lorry big enough to let the horses move around a bit in - a trailer would not really have enough space in there - & even using that route would entail one lairage somewhere in Spain so you’re starting to look at running up through France as being just as practical (especially if the Bay of Biscay has rough weather - you could be sitting around at Bilbao for days when you could be trundling up through France)
Whilst we are exempt from a load of ‘stuff’ we’ve always ran the lorry on the continent with a paper in the tacho and correctly switched back and forth for me & t’missus and ran to drivers’ hours - also carry and fill out a DEFRA route plan for the trip - whilst we are technically exempt from both it makes things a lot easier if/when the old Douanes/whoever pay a visit (Begium/Dutch border whilst parked up in the little l’aires that have no services usually seems to get a strike for some reason - I think they’re looking for UK horse owners skirting around the paperwork by pretending to run under the UK/France/Eire Tripartite rules)
Likewise the Animal Transport Regs certificate - I’ve never transported any livestock at all in connection with a business but it seemed prudent to get the certificate rather than trying to explain myself to UK let alone continental authorities - so far nobody has ever asked to see it but, who knows maybe one day?
Re the train - the shippers we’re talking to all have a surcharge (depends on the size of the load) that they’ll pass on if they have to use the train - I can understand that as the tunnel costs more and they’re not a charity - I can also understand why EuroTunnel only want the super-duper certified lorries as they don’t tend to leak ‘unmentionables’ (well they’re not supposed to - like caravans!).
There’s now the possibilty of a sixth horse making up the load so we’re going to be using a shipper - but thanks for all the help & advice
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