SOLIDARITY=Join the Union or Not?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
81

del949:

and we didn’t need the EU for the unions to get us where they got us in the early 1970’s compared to the 1930’s and we don’t need the EU now just as we didn’t need it from 1973 on.

I agree with the first part, but that was a time when we had full (or nearly) employment.
QWorkers could afford to take on the bosses as they ahd strength, not through the unions as such, more because workers were needed. We were still a manufacturing nation then.
As to wether we need the EU now, I disagree a bit.
If we ditch the EU then I am fairly certain that the likes of Nissan, Toyota and Honda will move to countries within the EU in order to maintain duty free exports to these countries.
I am equally certain that they will be offered big ‘incentives’ to move
This by no means alters my belief that the EU needs major and ongoing reforms to its financial structure and its political reach.
Given a referendum I would hope for the option " stay in but with massive immediate reforms".
or “stay in on the agreements voted for in the original referendum”, I.E. membership of the EEC, maintaining our own government and independance as regards our borders and benefits.

Firstly one of the main reasons why we’re not now a large manufacturing nation as we were in the early 1970’s is because we lost a lot more work to the EU ( mostly German in the 1970’s/80’s ) factories than we’ve ever gained from it.The fact is we could have kept a lot more workers employed here if we’d have protected the industries which we had before 1973 by using trade barriers against EU imports than what happened in opening our market up to a flood of Euro imports by joining them instead.Let alone the situation now involving the free movement of cheap east european labour and east european imports.:unamused:

We’ve had the EU since 1973 and look where it’s got us.The fact is if it was good for the interests of British workers then the Tories would never have wanted to join it or stay in it. :bulb:

82

If we had wanted to keep exporting our manufactured goods then having trade barriers against the EU may not have been the panacea you seem to believe in. At that time we had trade barriers against Japan and the US. Europe was our last unrestricted market (agreed not fully unrestricted), if we had imposed trade barriers against them then they simply have done the same.
Our domestic market could not support the existing industries and competition for the remaining free markets was too strong for British industry to be succesful.
Where would our markets then be?
The remnants of the Empire, the Commonwealth?

83

del949:
If we had wanted to keep exporting our manufactured goods then having trade barriers against the EU may not have been the panacea you seem to believe in. At that time we had trade barriers against Japan and the US. Europe was our last unrestricted market (agreed not fully unrestricted), if we had imposed trade barriers against them then they simply have done the same.
Our domestic market could not support the existing industries and competition for the remaining free markets was too strong for British industry to be succesful.
Where would our markets then be?
The remnants of the Empire, the Commonwealth?

That’s a lot of the problem in the case of the British unions ( and a lot of misguided Labour Party members who decided to follow Wilson,Callaghan,Jenkins and therefore by association Thatcher etc instead of Shore ) in that they allowed themselves to be blinded by the Tory propaganda that the export sector was more important than the domestic sector.

The fact is our trade balance figures since joining show that we had more to gain by closing our borders to imports of stuff that we could produce for ourselves than to open them up to imports.IE we had more to gain under a protectionist system protecting the domestic market from imports than we had to lose by opening them up to free trade on the bs basis that our exports of manufactured goods would ever exceed our imports of same.We were in fact in trade surplus with Europe before we joined the EEC/EU whereas we ended up in trade deficit from when we joined.Effectively we ended up trading oil with the EEC for manufactured stuff that we could have made for ourselves.All of which resulted in the lose lose situation of depleting our natural rescorces in oil and gas while closing down our mines and putting our manufacturing workers on the dole while paying a fortune in costs of maintaining a trade deficit and taxes to pay our EU contributions.

While even in a situation whereby exports take precedence it is possible to turn a country like Britain into a bunch of busy fools working to provide the world with high quality goods while the domestic economy goes to hell in a handcart as was the case in Victorian Britain when we were the workshop of the world with a workforce living in third world conditions.All of which seems to be similar to the idea now of your type of export operation in which while we might be turning out some stuff for export it’s still not making the place any richer or British workers a lot better off in general, in real terms.

Happy Keith has got it spot on it’s just that he’s got the wrong reasons for the right idea.In this case it’s probably best for the remnants of real Labour to ally themselves with the UKIP lot to get ourselves out of Heath’s bs federal EU project and then we can get back to business as usual in concentrating on the real fight between real Labour in the form of getting back to Shore’s old policies and real Conservative in the form of UKIP. :bulb:

84

Anyone got any examples of union success stories.
Shop stewards i’ve ■■■■ em, best thing to happen was when Maggie came in and neutered them all.

85

Dipper_Dave:
best thing to happen was when Maggie came in and neutered them all.

Maybe you should check out the relevant figures like Britain’s economic growth before and after/since. :unamused:

86

Carryfast:

Dipper_Dave:
best thing to happen was when Maggie came in and neutered them all.

Maybe you should check out the relevant figures like Britain’s economic growth before and after/since. :unamused:

Yawn, evidence please…
Checked and confirmed, better with Maggie, perhaps you would like to enlighten me with different figures and links to reliable sources if you have them.

I will happily change my opinion if you can prove the best thing to happen to this country wasn’t MT.

87

Dipper_Dave:

Carryfast:

Dipper_Dave:
best thing to happen was when Maggie came in and neutered them all.

Maybe you should check out the relevant figures like Britain’s economic growth before and after/since. :unamused:

Yawn, evidence please…
Checked and confirmed, better with Maggie, perhaps you would like to enlighten me with different figures and links to reliable sources if you have them.

I will happily change my opinion if you can prove the best thing to happen to this country wasn’t MT.

economicshelp.org/blog/wp-co … 9-2010.jpg

There’s the inconvenient truth about those bad old days of the early 1970’s before we joined the EEC and the bust,boom and bust ever since including the early 1980’s. :wink:

88

Thanks Carryfast, looking closely at the graph and bearing in mind MT reined (so to speak) from 1979 to 1990 do you see how the graph spikes and stays fairly constant during her term.

Course things stay the same at 1990 to 1997 when John Major came in to power no doubt following MT’s lead then TB comes in and things stay about the same (new labour = conservative). But OMG Gordon Brown comes in and we might as well shut up shop allowing for the con-lib coalition to sort things out later on.

I do notice the largest spike around 1973, do you know what caused this as I was only a pup at the time.

89

Dipper_Dave:
Thanks Carryfast, looking closely at the graph and bearing in mind MT reined (so to speak) from 1979 to 1990 do you see how the graph spikes and stays fairly constant during her term.

Course things stay the same at 1990 to 1997 when John Major came in to power no doubt following MT’s lead then TB comes in and things stay about the same (new labour = conservative). But OMG Gordon Brown comes in and we might as well shut up shop allowing for the con-lib coalition to sort things out later on.

I do notice the largest spike around 1973, do you know what caused this as I was only a pup at the time.

No surprise that a Thatcherite would try to make a ‘spike’ out of a trough which was deeper than anything before.After her election in 1979 the economy actually starts on the dive through the floor which went on into her first term.Then during the next ‘recovery’ the best it ever got put us back to more or less where we were in the mid 1960’s before plumetting back through the floor again just as was the case ever since we joined the EU which of course was Heath’s and Thatcher’s idea and successive government’s both Tory and Labour went for a policy of taking on the unions and weakening them thereby causing a collapse in incomes in real terms.

Even Stevie Wonder can see that what took place in the early 1970’s was more than a spike it was actually the economy finally taking off through the efforts of the post war and wartime generations.Then from that point on it’s just been a case of a continuously nosediving economy to levels never seen in the post war years previously that can’t sustain growth between those massive troughs.Having been old enough to know I can confirm that what happened in the early 1970’s was the result of the strength of the unions built over a long period since the 1920’s thereby creating massive spending power in the domestic economy combined with an economy which,at that time,wasn’t lumbered with all the implications of EU membership.IE those wages were spent on buying British made goods.Hence high employment and a high demand labour market.All that changed after we joined the EEC/EU and successive governments gradually defeated the unions on the basis that a low wage de industrialised economy is a good thing,of course.

90

del949:

‘…it’s often because the UK government is kow-towing to EU diktats…’

‘…these would be the same diktats that give you workers employment rights, holidays max working times and maternity pay etc…’

You have handily chosen to ignore the context of the EU requiring the UK to privatise the Post Office ie., to remove them from street corners and urban ‘normality’ where they’ve been since Great Britain invented them :exclamation:

With hundreds more ‘white van men’ (to replace one ‘fit-for-purpose’ enterprise) further choking our highways to meet improbable deadlines - other than providing minimum wage jobs for immigrants, pray tell on Brussels behalf where is the positivity in that :question:

91

No Keith, I didn’t ‘handily’ choose to ignore the privatisation of the Post Office.
I didn’t comment on it because as I understand the reports the Post Office is not being privatised.
The Royal Mail is. As the Royal Mail do not operate Post offices the privatisation of it should not result in the closure of any post offices directly.

gov.uk/government/uploads/s … pdated.pdf

92

Happy Keith:

Solly:

Happy Keith:
‘…However, when workers (too often) get a bad deal, it’s often because the UK government is kow-towing to EU diktats - which ‘Unite - the Union’ too conveniently overlooks…’

‘…Sorry mate this is incorrect as it is the privately owned IMF, World Bank/Federal Reserve Bank who dictates the national policy of any government…’

It matters not who may or may-not have pots of gold - and my point stands since the EU enables such fiasco under their devious guise :unamused:

Unless one is a rabid pro-EU puppet, what’s the point in splitting hairs :question:

It matters, and not “Splitting hairs” because it is so easy to blame the usual suspects when only in possession of one side of the true story. The EU and every other government signed up to the IMF have to do as the above mentioned organisations tell the too. They must obey, or else, as they hold the “Pots of gold”.

Try to understand the misinformation/lies you read and hear from MSM official narrative.

"It is not enough for journalists to see themselves as mere messengers without understanding the hidden agendas of the message and the myths that surround them.[John Pilger]

Stay away from MSM propaganda, don’t be fooled by it, as is it’s primary function. :wink: :slight_smile:

93

Dipper_Dave:
Anyone got any examples of union success stories.
Shop stewards i’ve [zb] em, best thing to happen was when Maggie came in and neutered them all.

:smiley: Lets hope there are not many workers with that attitude as you will deserve everything that is coming to you, as it surely will.
Let’s see if you have the same view when you are thrown out of work in favour of an Eastern European driver or company and “Austerity” bites you and your family in the ■■■■.

94

Solly:
:smiley: Lets hope there are not many workers with that attitude as you will deserve everything that is coming to you, as it surely will. Let’s see if you have the same view when you are thrown out of work in favour of an Eastern European driver or company and “Austerity” bites you and your family in the ■■■■.

Bit Harsh, but a fair point, could you enlighten me as to how being a member of a union would protect me from an EED, when current employment legislation gives me more rights than any union could have negotiated on my behalf, well unless I have been employed for less than 2 years then I’m stuffed.

What if the EED paid his dues and joined my union.
In the EU’s free market philospophy theres little if anything a union could about this, suppose i could pay my subs and hope though.

95

when current employment legislation gives me more rights than any union could have negotiated on my behalf, well unless I have been employed for less than 2 years then I’m stuffed

Where is your right to a company pension?
Where is your right to full sick pay?
These and other benefits were negotiated for individual companies by trade unions, not the government and certainly not the EU or the employers.
Interesting that since the laws were altered to weaken the unions these benefits and others have largely gone.
If you transport containers for a lving who do you think instigated the ‘driver does not unlead containers’ rules?.. the employers?
In a previous post you admitted that you were “only a pup” during the times of Thatcher and so I assume that you have little or no knowledge of the preceding 20 years or so.

96

del949:

when current employment legislation gives me more rights than any union could have negotiated on my behalf, well unless I have been employed for less than 2 years then I’m stuffed

Where is your right to a company pension?
Where is your right to full sick pay?
These and other benefits were negotiated for individual companies by trade unions, not the government and certainly not the EU or the employers.
Interesting that since the laws were altered to weaken the unions these benefits and others have largely gone.
If you transport containers for a lving who do you think instigated the ‘driver does not unlead containers’ rules?.. the employers?
In a previous post you admitted that you were “only a pup” during the times of Thatcher and so I assume that you have little or no knowledge of the preceding 20 years or so.

The problem is that we’ve now got a workforce ( and union membership ) that’s probably more made up of the brainwashed generations since the 1970’s who don’t know any better and who only know what the anti union education system has told them.Added to that is a union movement that’s almost as bad in many cases who’ve swallowed all the ‘militancy’ bs in regards to previous years when the reality was and still is workers have always had to fight to increase and maintain their living standards and terms and conditions.Now it’s all a case of workers believing everything that the establishment tells them in regards to following the government line and effectively the unions are defeated, even in their own view,and it’s really now just a matter of time in how long it will take the CBI etc to get things back to where they were in the 1930’s and before in real terms. :frowning:

97

del949:
Where is your right to a company pension?

Still there its called ‘auto enrolment’

Where is your right to full sick pay?

There is a right to SSP but full sick pay is negotiated into the employment contract. Can’t see why I would expect my employer to pay me a full weeks wages when I have been off sick unless I had negotiated it in the first place.

Interesting that since the laws were altered to weaken the unions these benefits and others have largely gone.

Not really but I do see how weakening the strength of the unions would have a detrimental effect to the individual, but hidden agendas and ulterior motives and not to mention corruption is one of the reasons unions are frowned upon.

If you transport containers for a lving who do you think instigated the ‘driver does not unlead containers’ rules?.. the employers?

I would guess work shy union members, It takes away individual thought i.e. if I wanted to help unload a container then so be it, I don’t expect everybody to be the same and certainly don’t want some union to have deceided what work I do or don’t do.

In a previous post you admitted that you were “only a pup” during the times of Thatcher and so I assume that you have little or no knowledge of the preceding 20 years or so.

True but I do remember the winter of discontent and I do remember my father running a business and any potential employee that so much as mentioned a union would not get a job.

Thats said I may be from a generation or nurture environment where unions are frowned upon so I will happily read and learn about experiences that may change my opinion or at the least allow me to make a more informed contribution to this thread.

Perhaps I may be considered what was known back in the day as a ‘scab’ but i would happily cross a picket line to feed my family. Course this wouldn’t endear me to my work colleagues when the strike was over but I know I wouldn’t be alone.

98

del949 wrote:
Where is your right to a company pension?
Still there its called ‘auto enrolment’

Where is your right to full sick pay?There is a right to SSP but full sick pay is negotiated into the employment contract. Can’t see why I would expect my employer to pay me a full weeks wages when I have been off sick unless I had negotiated it in the first place.

Sorry, auto enrolment is hardly the same as a final salary pension largely funded by the employer.

The right to SSP is hardly the same as full sick pay.
why shouldn’t you get paid for full sick leave if others in the workplace do, as was usually the case. Office workers would get it almost automatically but unions had to fight to get it for the likes of drivers etc.
You wouldn’t think that it was right for a boss to pay full wages if, for example, you were injured doing his business?
Perhaps you should read some of the excellent discussions that this subject has engendered on here previousley.
We won’t hold your upbringing or parents views against you :smiley:

99

Dipper_Dave:
Bit Harsh, but a fair point, could you enlighten me as to how being a member of a union would protect me from an EED, when current employment legislation gives me more rights than any union could have negotiated on my behalf, well unless I have been employed for less than 2 years then I’m stuffed.

What if the EED paid his dues and joined my union.
In the EU’s free market philospophy theres little if anything a union could about this, suppose i could pay my subs and hope though.

:smiley: Dave mate. Reality is harsh at times mate.
As C/Fast and others have pointed out, the whole workforce have been softened up through detrimental Industrial Relations legislation and the continued barrage of propaganda from the “Corporate controlled Media” and was purposely designed to weaken and demonise the Unions and their members. This is because Governments and “Private Banksters” are afraid of the population.
In these few words of Percy Bysshe Shelly from his famous poem The Masque of Anarchy in remembrance of the Peterloo massacre of Union members, and as a wake up call to the populations of the world:…

Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many – they are few"

You ask:

… could you enlighten me as to how being a member of a union would protect me from an EED?

The above poem should give a clue as would joining a Union. If Unions have enough members to shout out against the injustices of today…Governments would be foolish to ignore them. Cue Greece.
HTH :wink:

100

Dipper_Dave:

del949:
Where is your right to a company pension?

Still there its called ‘auto enrolment’

Where is your right to full sick pay?

There is a right to SSP but full sick pay is negotiated into the employment contract. Can’t see why I would expect my employer to pay me a full weeks wages when I have been off sick unless I had negotiated it in the first place.

Interesting that since the laws were altered to weaken the unions these benefits and others have largely gone.

Not really but I do see how weakening the strength of the unions would have a detrimental effect to the individual, but hidden agendas and ulterior motives and not to mention corruption is one of the reasons unions are frowned upon.

If you transport containers for a lving who do you think instigated the ‘driver does not unlead containers’ rules?.. the employers?

I would guess work shy union members, It takes away individual thought i.e. if I wanted to help unload a container then so be it, I don’t expect everybody to be the same and certainly don’t want some union to have deceided what work I do or don’t do.

In a previous post you admitted that you were “only a pup” during the times of Thatcher and so I assume that you have little or no knowledge of the preceding 20 years or so.

True but I do remember the winter of discontent and I do remember my father running a business and any potential employee that so much as mentioned a union would not get a job.

Thats said I may be from a generation or nurture environment where unions are frowned upon so I will happily read and learn about experiences that may change my opinion or at the least allow me to make a more informed contribution to this thread.

Perhaps I may be considered what was known back in the day as a ‘scab’ but i would happily cross a picket line to feed my family. Course this wouldn’t endear me to my work colleagues when the strike was over but I know I wouldn’t be alone.

Firstly on the subject of crossing picket lines ‘to feed your family’ you’re only seeing that from the point of view of the history that you know and that you’ve been taught.If you go back a bit further and dig a bit deeper you’ll find that by leaving the fate of a family to the discretion of those like the CBI,you’d eventually have very little to lose either way.IE it was case of work and be hungry,and living in zb conditions,including not being unheard of for children in such cases to have to be fostered out for adoption because it sometimes came down to the catch 22 of having to offload the kids in order for the husband and wife to survive,or strike,win and make things better.

If you look around you and just put aside those bs ideas of yours based on tory propaganda related to the winter of discontent you’ll see that there are indications of such conditions returning now in the 21 st century.

www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/16 … ood-survey

As for the winter of discontent you might remember it but as you’ve already admitted you were too young to even have had any real involvement in the economic crash of the early 1980’s let alone what took place before Thatcher’s election.The reality of the winter of discontent needs to be seen against a background of our recent,at that time,EEC membership and the costs to the economy of that in terms of lost jobs and the trade deficit it caused and taxation required to pay for the privilege and a government that failed to insulate the economy from the recent,at the time,and continuing,massive rises in oil prices considering that we were self sufficient in oil.The fact is at that point wages were being cut in real terms compared to price increases all based,as today,on the bs basis that wage ‘restraint’ will stop price rises.Although those like the bankers etc made sure that idea was only applied selectively to those at shop floor level while making sure that they themselves were immune from the policy.What we actually saw during the winter of discontent was probably the last stand of the old generation of Brits who’d seen it all before and/or had grown up under such a regime during the pre war years and were up for a fight to stop it happening again.The important and ironic bit is that all that took place under Callaghan’s so called Labour government not Thatcher.Like Callaghan she was all for the CBI and the bankers but her tactics were something else in the form of just effectively wiping out the unions altogether unbelievably in large part helped by the working classes themselves to do it.

The results of all that are where the economy is today and where it’s eventually headed which as I’ve said will be where the CBI wants it to go in the form of where it was during the 1920’s/30’s.IE great if you were very rich but not so good for the average worker.