Self-employed HELP!

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
161

Rjan:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:
What ST/Ltd Gardener is ever gonna run a viable business if he arrived for work everywhere with no tools and had to use the customers!!![emoji28]

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It’s a simplified and perfectly good example. Whether it’s viable is another thing entirely.

I suggest that perceptions of “viability” are highly relevant, because it’s another way of saying that nobody seriously believes that a man who offers only to operate other people’s mowers, can be running any sort of independent business for himself. The same is true of truck drivers - nobody seriously believes that the man at the wheel is an independent businessman!

Well, I’m currently in my 6th year, at the wheel of someone else’s truck as an independent businessman. Admittedly the business makes very little profit. [emoji6]

162

Rjan:

Honestscott76:

Rjan:

Honestscott76:
If you hire a gardener and give him or her instructions on how you want your garden but he or she uses your mower and tools, is he self employed or do you have to employ him?

He could well be your employee. For example, you hire a 17 year old lad to run your mower around, and you stand there to supervise and control. Most people would refuse to accept that he’s acting in the capacity of a self employed businessman, but instead that he resembles a domestic servant.

Both examples you highlight are perfectly legal.

Nobody is saying anything is illegal. The question you asked was whether the person you hired, more resembles your employee or a self-employed businessman.

Again, it’s merely your opinion that ‘most people’ would refuse to accept he’s acting in the capacity of a self employed businessman.

As long as the gardener satisfies the relevant regulations, it’s perfectly legitimate to conduct work as a self employed businessman.

What regulations? Yes, a person can run a legitimate gardening business. But you cast the situation as one where you provide all the gardening equipment, and to me no reasonable tradesman typically adopts his customers tools as opposed to his own with which he is familiar.

I’ve slightly embellished the situation you gave, by characterising the person hired as a neighbourhood lad as opposed to a professional found in the Yellow Pages, in order to accentuate that there’s a difference in authority, but only to make the point that, yes, a gardener could well be your employee.

I certainly think that, if the lad you hired chopped his fingers off with the mower, or somebody else’s, you’d probably find yourself in very deep lumber indeed. Whereas if a professional gardener did the same, it would be on his head and not yours.

As for supervision and control, this is irrelevant. I wouldn’t personally wouldn’t seek to hire the services of someone who needs supervision and or control. I suspect ‘most’ wouldn’t either but that’s merely my opinion.

The question is not whether the person hired needs supervision and control - nobody sets out to hire the Chuckle brothers to do a day’s work. The question is whether you are in charge - who has authority? That is a relevant test of whether you are the customer or the employer.

Yet again, your ‘embellishments’ do not help the issue, introducing a ‘neighbourhood lad’ is totally irrelevant as I only ever made reference to a self employed gardener without tools.

As for the Chuckle Brothers, chopping fingers off, I get the impression your delusional.

163

Honestscott76:

Rjan:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:
What ST/Ltd Gardener is ever gonna run a viable business if he arrived for work everywhere with no tools and had to use the customers!!![emoji28]

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

It’s a simplified and perfectly good example. Whether it’s viable is another thing entirely.

I suggest that perceptions of “viability” are highly relevant, because it’s another way of saying that nobody seriously believes that a man who offers only to operate other people’s mowers, can be running any sort of independent business for himself. The same is true of truck drivers - nobody seriously believes that the man at the wheel is an independent businessman!

Well, I’m currently in my 6th year, at the wheel of someone else’s truck as an independent businessman. Admittedly the business makes very little profit. [emoji6]

Go back to post #117,
Did you answer the questionnaire honestly or just ignoring it as you already know what its conclusion will be ref your past 6yrs!!!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

164

Honestscott76:

Rjan:
The same is true of truck drivers - nobody seriously believes that the man at the wheel is an independent businessman!

Well, I’m currently in my 6th year, at the wheel of someone else’s truck as an independent businessman. Admittedly the business makes very little profit. [emoji6]

Hahaha :laughing: :laughing:

This is reading like a script for Steptoe and Son!

165

Big Truck:

Honestscott76:

Rjan:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:
What ST/Ltd Gardener is ever gonna run a viable business if he arrived for work everywhere with no tools and had to use the customers!!![emoji28]

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

It’s a simplified and perfectly good example. Whether it’s viable is another thing entirely.

I suggest that perceptions of “viability” are highly relevant, because it’s another way of saying that nobody seriously believes that a man who offers only to operate other people’s mowers, can be running any sort of independent business for himself. The same is true of truck drivers - nobody seriously believes that the man at the wheel is an independent businessman!

Well, I’m currently in my 6th year, at the wheel of someone else’s truck as an independent businessman. Admittedly the business makes very little profit. [emoji6]

Go back to post #117,
Did you answer the questionnaire honestly or just ignoring it as you already know what its conclusion will be ref your past 6yrs!!!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

I ignored it, I know my rights.

166

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:

Honestscott76:

Rjan:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:
What ST/Ltd Gardener is ever gonna run a viable business if he arrived for work everywhere with no tools and had to use the customers!!![emoji28]

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

It’s a simplified and perfectly good example. Whether it’s viable is another thing entirely.

I suggest that perceptions of “viability” are highly relevant, because it’s another way of saying that nobody seriously believes that a man who offers only to operate other people’s mowers, can be running any sort of independent business for himself. The same is true of truck drivers - nobody seriously believes that the man at the wheel is an independent businessman!

Well, I’m currently in my 6th year, at the wheel of someone else’s truck as an independent businessman. Admittedly the business makes very little profit. [emoji6]

Go back to post #117,
Did you answer the questionnaire honestly or just ignoring it as you already know what its conclusion will be ref your past 6yrs!!!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

I ignored it, I know my rights.

Greatest copout ever seen on Trucknet!!![emoji28]

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

167

Honestscott76:
Yet again, your ‘embellishments’ do not help the issue, introducing a ‘neighbourhood lad’ is totally irrelevant as I only ever made reference to a self employed gardener without tools.

But that begs the question of whether a person can be a self-employed gardener without the tools!

It’s the grin without the cat - the lofty claims of being self-employed in an independent business, whilst being so immiserated that you have to depend on the supposed customers to supply the tools of your trade.

I could envisage a situation for example where a next door neighbour comes round to borrow a mower because his is broken, and as a quid pro quo you say to him “run it over my lawn while you’re at it”, that is not employment, because the master and servant relationship is not present. But it is also not self-employment.

Ultimately, “mower operator” is not a particularly familiar occupation, except where children and youths are involved, and it’s like I say a householder seems perfectly capable of being an employer in that situation.

The only examples I know of where an adult has been the mower operator is two cases where relatively wealthy families have hired someone regularly to operate a ride-on mower over large grounds, and to my eye that does resemble an employment relationship.

In one case, the person had no tools or equipment of their own and was acknowledged to be an employee. In the other, the relationship resembled informal domestic service in some ways, but the person involved was separately running a gardening business which they marketed openly, and had significant tools and equipment (ride-on mower notwithstanding) and a work vehicle.

In my general experience, outside the examples of these wealthy families where the relationship does take on the character of employment, a genuine gardener brings and uses his own tools and stands recognisably as a independent businessman against the householder.

It’s impossible to analyse other purely hypothetical cases, because there is no tacit knowledge of social circumstances and the status of the parties, which is necessary to dermine which of the parties, the hirer or the hired, stands against the other as the authority figure.

168

Rjan:

Honestscott76:
Yet again, your ‘embellishments’ do not help the issue, introducing a ‘neighbourhood lad’ is totally irrelevant as I only ever made reference to a self employed gardener without tools.

But that begs the question of whether a person can be a self-employed gardener without the tools!

It’s the grin without the cat - the lofty claims of being self-employed in an independent business, whilst being so immiserated that you have to depend on the supposed customers to supply the tools of your trade.

I could envisage a situation for example where a next door neighbour comes round to borrow a mower because his is broken, and as a quid pro quo you say to him “run it over my lawn while you’re at it”, that is not employment, because the master and servant relationship is not present. But it is also not self-employment.

Ultimately, “mower operator” is not a particularly familiar occupation, except where children and youths are involved, and it’s like I say a householder seems perfectly capable of being an employer in that situation.

The only examples I know of where an adult has been the mower operator is two cases where relatively wealthy families have hired someone regularly to operate a ride-on mower over large grounds, and to my eye that does resemble an employment relationship.

In one case, the person had no tools or equipment of their own and was acknowledged to be an employee. In the other, the relationship resembled informal domestic service in some ways, but the person involved was separately running a gardening business which they marketed openly, and had significant tools and equipment (ride-on mower notwithstanding) and a work vehicle.

In my general experience, outside the examples of these wealthy families where the relationship does take on the character of employment, a genuine gardener brings and uses his own tools and stands recognisably as a independent businessman against the householder.

It’s impossible to analyse other purely hypothetical cases, because there is no tacit knowledge of social circumstances and the status of the parties, which is necessary to dermine which of the parties, the hirer or the hired, stands against the other as the authority figure.

[emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849]

OMG!!!

169

Drivers who only provide their labour, driving vehicles owned, maintained, and insured by contractors, are likely to be employees. Drivers who also provide the means of transport, that is the vehicle, are likely to be self-employed even if they work mainly for one principal. The vehicle may be one which they own or lease (see ESM4211).

Also read this for details:

170

Only 200 replies and it hasn’t resorted to fisticuffs yet

171

I’ve moved the argument that’s not related to this topic to Bullies, if I’ve missed anything please hit the report button that’s at the top of each post.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=148930

172

I’ve had all kinds of threats thrown my way on Facebook trucking groups when I’ve said guys working for one firm as ltd company are in the wrong.
To make matters worse most are doing it for around the average paye wage forgetting it costs an employer around a third of your salary on top of what they pay you to cover 28 days holiday employers NI etc.
I think the fact so many are doing it and working at one place will screw it up for the genuine guys who do a bit of freelance.
Remember the likes of amazon and Starbucks can afford the best accountants to exploit the system but hmrc will persue a lorry driver nicking a few quid

173

I’m not sure if this will help or merely muddy the waters further, but…An awful lot of whether someone truly counts as self-employed comes down to two things: financial risk and the ability to say “no” to a client.

I’m self-employed as a freelance journalist. I choose to remain a sole trader, but I could just as easily have a Ltd Company or an LLP, it’s irrelevant.

I work job to job - each brief is a beginning and an end in and of itself and I have no guarantee of earnings beyond that. If I get halfway through researching, setting up, or even writing a job and for some reason it all goes ■■■■ up - something which has happened to me several times - I do not get reimbursed for any time or expense that has cost me, unlike the full time staff writer. Therefore I carry risk.

If a client asks me to do a job and for whatever reason I don’t want to - already fully booked, away on holiday, think its a crap idea and don’t want my name on it, whatever - I can say “no” and, while it might ■■■■ that client off a bit, they can’t do anything about that beyond not offering me anything else in future. A staff writer, however, would be up on a disciplinary.

Try applying the above 2 principles to any “self employed” driving job and see how far you get. Is the first scenario something you’d be prepared to take on? The equivalent, I suppose, would be if a load was rejected. Would you be prepared to not be paid for that, or for there to be a delay in payment while it gets sorted out who’s paying for what? What about the second scenario, can you knock back that dodgy Friday job which’ll keep you out until Saturday morning, and for no other reason than because you’re on a promise?

Just food for thought.

174

Hello Lucy,

HMRC, may not agree. They have several bullet points, and ‘only from memory’ they have a preference to match three of the specified criteria… one of which includes the ability to appoint someone else as a stand-in when you are absent, on holiday, or when sick etc.

This does however muddy already unclear water… as what we started discussing was the liability of the OP… which in the specific circumstances explained by the OP, are somewhere between 0 & 0.

Edited to add… if all the writing you do is for one publication or one owner… say Newsquest or Johnston or the PA… they might challenge your potential employer on this.

It’s all as clear as mud with no hard and fast rules. Every case is different etc.

175

Jingle Jon:
HMRC, may not agree. They have several bullet points, and ‘only from memory’ they have a preference to match three of the specified criteria… one of which includes the ability to appoint someone else as a stand-in when you are absent, on holiday, or when sick etc.

You know, I’ve always wondered about that. Fortunately for me, however, freelancing within my particular trade is a fully acceptable position as far as HMRC are concerned - something I checked before coming off the road.

Edited to add… if all the writing you do is for one publication or one owner… say Newsquest or Johnston or the PA… they might challenge your potential employer on this.

Indeed. Fortunately it’s not.

It’s all as clear as mud with no hard and fast rules. Every case is different etc.

Which is why the best way forward is always the one I took myself - before assuming anything or taking anyone’s word for it, allegedly qualified or otherwise, pick up the phone, ring HMRC and ask them yourself! They’re actually really helpful. :wink:

176

Afterthought: I think in the case of writers they accept that the client is paying as much for your skill, expertise and byline as for what you produce in physical terms, so it’s perfectly reasonable that they wouldn’t accept an alternative without choosing someone for themselves. There’s nothing to stop you recommending a fellow freelancer though, and you most certainly can - and indeed I have - get deadlines moved under such circumstances.

177

Lucy,

Just passed your specific by my oracle (wife)… she said it’s unlikely HMRC would be interested in your JD not least because they are particularly following leads, or heads up on the obvious. There might be some issues if you were putting all your work through the same agent and if or not that potential agent was taking a share of any royalties… although she did say there’s more chance of you being hit by lightning.

What continues to be the bottom line is that provided the individual declares all earnings and pays all taxes etc… there’s nothing for the individual to worried about.

P.S… was scribbling this on mi phone during your…

178

Lucy:
Afterthought: I think in the case of writers they accept that the client is paying as much for your skill, expertise and byline as for what you produce in physical terms, so it’s perfectly reasonable that they wouldn’t accept an alternative without choosing someone for themselves. There’s nothing to stop you recommending a fellow freelancer though, and you most certainly can - and indeed I have - get deadlines moved under such circumstances.

Also seems a bit obv… that the purchaser cannot dictate what you write, or how long you spend with the ‘blunt’ spit & polish etc.

Some nuts cannot be cracked…

179

Lucy:
Which is why the best way forward is always the one I took myself - before assuming anything or taking anyone’s word for it, allegedly qualified or otherwise, pick up the phone, ring HMRC and ask them yourself! They’re actually really helpful. :wink:

And make sure you record and archive the conversation. The peeps answering the dog are not always that well informed… regardless of their job title.

Personal experience here. :slight_smile:

180

Even the dogs on the street know this is a grey area in which you take your chances. It will work out for most but not for all for now.

No doubt it is an area that HMRC need to tackle if only to level the playing field so that proper employers are not disadvantaged by this sharp practice.

It is also very prevalent and equally abused in other industries so why are HMRC so slow to fix it?

I believe government since Thacher want to bias all in favour of cheap labour and wealthier or more competitive employers. Thus the open door policy on immigration also.

All attempts by Europe to improve the employees lot such as minimum wage have been fiercely resisted by Westminster.

But going back to the OP.

You want to enter a better paid part of the driving industry by a grey employment mechanism. You may be marginally better off but you your employer will have much cheaper labour than his proper paying competition.

It is then your hope once suitable experienced is gained to move to one of those proper employers.

The questions I ask is why will they need additional drivers as they can no longer compete for contracts and you may well be stuck with the first guy as he expands and expands.

I don’t say for a moment you should be the gate keeper on this one.

In fact if you don’t go for it someone else will so genuine best of luck with it. You can always come back if you are not happy with it.

But without a level playing field I feel the drivers lot is about to get worse and government and the public seem very comfortable with that.

Someone please tell me I am wrong and it will get better.