Self-employed HELP!

Lucy:
I’m not sure if this will help or merely muddy the waters further, but…An awful lot of whether someone truly counts as self-employed comes down to two things: financial risk and the ability to say “no” to a client.

I’m self-employed as a freelance journalist. I choose to remain a sole trader, but I could just as easily have a Ltd Company or an LLP, it’s irrelevant.

I work job to job - each brief is a beginning and an end in and of itself and I have no guarantee of earnings beyond that. If I get halfway through researching, setting up, or even writing a job and for some reason it all goes ■■■■ up - something which has happened to me several times - I do not get reimbursed for any time or expense that has cost me, unlike the full time staff writer. Therefore I carry risk.

Am I understanding you correctly that you can be given a brief, perform the work, and then have the brief cancelled without payment? What level of investment might be forfeited in that situation? Is there any obligation on you to actually deliver your brief - could you cancel or fail, without accountability or prejudice to the relationship (such as a creative artist who merely discusses a concept, and says “I’ll have a think about whether I can make it work”)? Also, what are your earnings, relative to the staff writer who carries no risk?

I ask because the “financial risk” test of a legitimate business, to my mind relates to business capital being at risk, not simply the risk of wasted personal time or doing work for free personally (nor the loss of a small number of minor expenses like dinner money or train tickets, which are as congruous with the activity of a work-seeker or employee, as with a businessman). It also relates to whether there is correspondingly an opportunity for an entrepreneurial profit and an expectation (genuine, even if not always reasonable) of sensible return on capital invested.

The risk of payments or wages being withheld is not itself an indication of self-employment (it indicates neither, because both employees and businessmen may be subject to withholding for bad work, and both employees and businessmen may be paid variably by the piece or according to quality).

Also, the risk of loss or the presence of penalty clauses, without the corresponding opportunity for an entrepreneurial profit, is a string indicator of employment and not an independent business, because employers will often try to force such clauses into their contracts by virtue of their power over the subordinate employee, but an independent businessman and customer would not trade on the basis of the businessman accepting a risk of loss without the opportunity of entrepreneurial profit.

If a client asks me to do a job and for whatever reason I don’t want to - already fully booked, away on holiday, think its a crap idea and don’t want my name on it, whatever - I can say “no” and, while it might ■■■■ that client off a bit, they can’t do anything about that beyond not offering me anything else in future. A staff writer, however, would be up on a disciplinary.

But whether employment exists between briefs does not address whether employment exists during a brief. Also, the fact that you mention they could respond by dispensing with your services in future, depending on what level of threat that poses, does not imply a contract in the interstitial periods, but it could go towards showing that authority and control is present in the relationship.

Try applying the above 2 principles to any “self employed” driving job and see how far you get. Is the first scenario something you’d be prepared to take on? The equivalent, I suppose, would be if a load was rejected. Would you be prepared to not be paid for that, or for there to be a delay in payment while it gets sorted out who’s paying for what? What about the second scenario, can you knock back that dodgy Friday job which’ll keep you out until Saturday morning, and for no other reason than because you’re on a promise?

Just food for thought.

Indeed.

I would say the “financial risk” test cannot be usefully applied to truck drivers, because they do not typically supply or stake business capital, or receive an entrepreneurial profit. Any premiums that the “self-employed” drivers receive in this industry are usually attributable to regulatory arbitrage against the PAYE tax scheme and other employment protections, not to any legitimate business activity carried on by the driver, and in general their mode of work is equivalent to that of employed drivers.

And as for deciding when to work, can the driver cancel half way through a job, or half way through a day (for any reason)? Can the hirer do the same? If that is not reasonably anticipated, then there are mutual obligations to work and to pay, at least for the duration of a round trip or other indivisible block of work.

Also, the unfettered right merely to decline further work is not an indication of an independent businessman, because both employees and businessmen always have the right (notwithstanding contractual obligations, statutory minimums, or customary implied terms) to terminate the contract at will.

Jingle Jon:

Lucy:
Afterthought: I think in the case of writers they accept that the client is paying as much for your skill, expertise and byline as for what you produce in physical terms, so it’s perfectly reasonable that they wouldn’t accept an alternative without choosing someone for themselves. There’s nothing to stop you recommending a fellow freelancer though, and you most certainly can - and indeed I have - get deadlines moved under such circumstances.

Also seems a bit obv… that the purchaser cannot dictate what you write, or how long you spend with the ‘blunt’ spit & polish etc.

Some nuts cannot be cracked…

Is he really in any better position to dictate to the staff writer what he writes?

But if the supposed purchaser does happen to express an opinion that the writing is taking far too long or isn’t of good enough quality, does he do so with authority? Would ordinary people, asked whose opinion carries more weight in the relationship, tend to think that the purchaser should defer to the writer, or that the employer should expect the deference of the writer? Which side would be the first to start wringing their hands and feel a twinge of anxiety in this interaction?

Rjan:

Jingle Jon:

Lucy:
Afterthought: I think in the case of writers they accept that the client is paying as much for your skill, expertise and byline as for what you produce in physical terms, so it’s perfectly reasonable that they wouldn’t accept an alternative without choosing someone for themselves. There’s nothing to stop you recommending a fellow freelancer though, and you most certainly can - and indeed I have - get deadlines moved under such circumstances.

Also seems a bit obv… that the purchaser cannot dictate what you write, or how long you spend with the ‘blunt’ spit & polish etc.

Some nuts cannot be cracked…

Is he really in any better position to dictate to the staff writer what he writes?

But if the supposed purchaser does happen to express an opinion that the writing is taking far too long or isn’t of good enough quality, does he do so with authority? Would ordinary people, asked whose opinion carries more weight in the relationship, tend to think that the purchaser should defer to the writer, or that the employer should expect the deference of the writer? Which side would be the first to start wringing their hands and feel a twinge of anxiety in this interaction?

You could apply that analogy to almost any situation though, in which case the term self employed would become redundant.

There’s something unique about either reporting on a specific incident or say creative writing of an article.

I have a friend who writes a couple of columns each week, she submits them to the papers and they choose if or not to buy them. There’s no guarantee and she risks all her invested time, travel costs and she provides her own laptop, camera etc. She’s dam good at what she does and even though the papers dictate the size of the article… that’s all they can demand.

gov.uk/employment-status/se … contractor

Checking if they’re exempt from PAYE
Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:
they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
they can hire someone else to do the work
they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
they can work for more than one client

Regarding the OP, he seems to fail on a number of those criteria.

commercialfleet.org/news/tru … ed-legally

Last year, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) advised the Road Haulage Association (RHA) that it is rare in road haulage for someone to be genuinely self-employed, unless they are an owner-driver.

truckanddriver.co.uk/big-lorry-b … ink-again/

Various ploys are being used by which lorry drivers are said to be “self-employed”. That is fine for genuine owner-drivers, who have their own operating licence and haulage business – but anyone driving a lorry for another company cannot be self-employed.

taxation.co.uk/Articles/201 … heavy-load

Self-employed workers

There is widespread misunderstanding across the industry that it is acceptable to engage a driver on a self-employed basis. This may be short term cover to fill a staff shortage or on a long term basis. Sadly, unless the driver holds an operating licence and is carrying on their own haulage business they cannot be considered self-employed. I would emphasise that this is not a recent change in HMRC’s approach; it is the department’s longstanding view.

Historically, drivers have been provided by agencies and supplied to the haulage business on a temporary basis and it was not uncommon for the agencies to engage those drivers on a self-employed basis. Since the introduction of the intermediary tax rules in April 2014 (ITEPA 2003, s 44), these workers have fallen within the PAYE and National Insurance net if they are working under ‘supervision, direction or control’. The supervision, direction or control may be exercised by the agency, the end client or, indeed, anyone within the relationship. In reality, given the nature of the work undertaken by a driver, it is extremely unlikely that they will be able to win any argument with HMRC that they are not under direction, supervision or control. This is because the operator engaging the worker is likely to be telling them when they are needed to work and the duties they are required to perform. The intermediary rules require the agency to operate PAYE and National Insurance on the payments they make to the worker. This is the case unless the agency is situated outside the UK when responsibility sits with the end client (the haulage company) which should be operating PAYE and National Insurance on the payments it makes to the agency.

It all seems pretty clear to me.

Can you explain which part of probably is clear?

There is no clarity, just guidance… which is open for both discussion & debate with HMRC. Who essentially can ultimately be both challenged and found wanting

Great job Albion,
I don’t know how any of the Sole Trader/Ltd drivers can argue against that!!!

May be true if you pay all taxes/NI contributions etc but as I said before,
HMRC will have their pound of flesh and those still avoiding PAYE need to think again.

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Jingle Jon:

Rjan:

Jingle Jon:

Lucy:
Afterthought: I think in the case of writers they accept that the client is paying as much for your skill, expertise and byline as for what you produce in physical terms, so it’s perfectly reasonable that they wouldn’t accept an alternative without choosing someone for themselves. There’s nothing to stop you recommending a fellow freelancer though, and you most certainly can - and indeed I have - get deadlines moved under such circumstances.

Also seems a bit obv… that the purchaser cannot dictate what you write, or how long you spend with the ‘blunt’ spit & polish etc.

Some nuts cannot be cracked…

Is he really in any better position to dictate to the staff writer what he writes?

But if the supposed purchaser does happen to express an opinion that the writing is taking far too long or isn’t of good enough quality, does he do so with authority? Would ordinary people, asked whose opinion carries more weight in the relationship, tend to think that the purchaser should defer to the writer, or that the employer should expect the deference of the writer? Which side would be the first to start wringing their hands and feel a twinge of anxiety in this interaction?

You could apply that analogy to almost any situation though, in which case the term self employed would become redundant.

That’s because “almost any situation” within the scope of our attention is that of employment, and not business.

Having already excluded the presence of business capital, excluded entrepreneurial profit, excluded business premises, excluded business-like market trading (whether for the inputs of materials or services), excluded other employees in relation to whom the alleged businessman stands as authority figure, have failed to exclude integration with the client’s organisation or core activity, and whatever else you can think of which characterises a businessman or entrepreneur who stands independent from his client, and we’re left searching for one last scrap of meat that can possibly hang on this skeleton of a business to make it alive.

The final test is that the independent professional man comes to the client as an expert and an authority figure in his specialist field of practice (or maybe a professional peer of the client, where the client is engaged in the same occupation as the candidate, not in an occupation that manages those candidates), whereas the employee is engaged in work that is routine and well-understood by the client and does not stand as an authority figure. Who’s the boss in this relationship, we ask? And in a driver’s case, I’m afraid, he does not typically stand as the boss, or even as a peer of the haulier (although two owner-drivers of similar standing might occasionally, and legitimately, stand in for each other purely as the other’s driver, without the one necessarily becoming the employee of the other).

I can think of situations that could characterise a driver as an independent professional against the client. Let’s consider a small general haulage business. They take on a specialist piece of work for a brief period of time, lasting days or a few weeks - some specialist chemical, maybe. They find an independent professional who is both a driver and DGSA, who is already an expert in handling those chemicals - the client knows nothing about the handling requirements and has no experience. The driver/DGSA drives the wagon, but he also advises on (or implements) many aspects of the handling and other requirements of which the client has no knowledge - maybe he also brings knowledge about where containers or handling equipment can be sourced from (even if he doesn’t arrange or purchase these himself), again of which the client has no knowledge. There is significant discussion before the actual driving, about the organisation of the work and what the client needs to do to accommodate it. The overall fee, of course, is many multiples what the client’s employed drivers are being paid for the general haulage work. Now, this is a legitimate piece of business by an independent professional to my eye - he stands against the client as the authority figure based on his specialist knowledge and skill.

Contrast that with the average driver who claims to be self-employed.

There’s something unique about either reporting on a specific incident or say creative writing of an article.

I have a friend who writes a couple of columns each week, she submits them to the papers and they choose if or not to buy them. There’s no guarantee and she risks all her invested time, travel costs and she provides her own laptop, camera etc. She’s dam good at what she does and even though the papers dictate the size of the article… that’s all they can demand.

Based on this brief description and very little tacit knowledge of such arrangements, the contract seems to be one of sale (of a literary product). Just to describe my impression, I assume the client shows very little interest in how the work is produced (they aren’t concerned about the utilisation of their own supplies or business capital), and that the conduct during producing the work doesn’t stand to impact the client’s reputation. The client doesn’t organise or coordinate your friend’s attendance at a certain place, with the owner of premises at the other end.

The quality of the work delivered is assessed fully by reference to the written words on the page when (and if) they are delivered, not by who has written them or how, and there isn’t thought to be a hidden quality in the work that depends on how the producer works (unlike a driver who could deliver a wagon but pilfer, or allow to be pilfered, the contents, or crash the wagon which never arrives, both of which are real risks that would harm an employer’s reputation and finances).

I assume she doesn’t meet the customers of the client, or that the client wouldn’t show any interest if she did (for example, if she happened to bump into the general public who read the newspaper). I assume your friend doesn’t bother attending the client’s premises - there isn’t a personal relationship of any sort between your friend and the client’s staff (in connection with the work, I mean). I also assume that the same work could be useful and sold to different clients (or reused or rehashed and sold again, without the same outlay of work).

Big Truck:
Great job Albion,
I don’t know how any of the Sole Trader/Ltd drivers can argue against that!!!

May be true if you pay all taxes/NI contributions etc but as I said before,
HMRC will have their pound of flesh and those still avoiding PAYE need to think again.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Indeed but Jingle can.

Jingle the other links make it perfectly clear that in the case of the OP, he should be PAYE. he doesn’t have a truck and he is under direct supervision.

I can’t make it clearer, I can’t make it simpler. And it backs up what Backhouse Jones the Haulage solicitors said when I went to a seminar earlier in the year.

albion:
Employment status: Self-employed and contractor - GOV.UK

Checking if they’re exempt from PAYE
Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:
they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
they can hire someone else to do the work
they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
they can work for more than one client

Regarding the OP, he seems to fail on a number of those criteria.

commercialfleet.org/news/tru … ed-legally

Last year, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) advised the Road Haulage Association (RHA) that it is rare in road haulage for someone to be genuinely self-employed, unless they are an owner-driver.

truckanddriver.co.uk/big-lorry-b … ink-again/

Various ploys are being used by which lorry drivers are said to be “self-employed”. That is fine for genuine owner-drivers, who have their own operating licence and haulage business – but anyone driving a lorry for another company cannot be self-employed.

taxation.co.uk/Articles/201 … heavy-load

Self-employed workers

There is widespread misunderstanding across the industry that it is acceptable to engage a driver on a self-employed basis. This may be short term cover to fill a staff shortage or on a long term basis. Sadly, unless the driver holds an operating licence and is carrying on their own haulage business they cannot be considered self-employed. I would emphasise that this is not a recent change in HMRC’s approach; it is the department’s longstanding view.

Historically, drivers have been provided by agencies and supplied to the haulage business on a temporary basis and it was not uncommon for the agencies to engage those drivers on a self-employed basis. Since the introduction of the intermediary tax rules in April 2014 (ITEPA 2003, s 44), these workers have fallen within the PAYE and National Insurance net if they are working under ‘supervision, direction or control’. The supervision, direction or control may be exercised by the agency, the end client or, indeed, anyone within the relationship. In reality, given the nature of the work undertaken by a driver, it is extremely unlikely that they will be able to win any argument with HMRC that they are not under direction, supervision or control. This is because the operator engaging the worker is likely to be telling them when they are needed to work and the duties they are required to perform. The intermediary rules require the agency to operate PAYE and National Insurance on the payments they make to the worker. This is the case unless the agency is situated outside the UK when responsibility sits with the end client (the haulage company) which should be operating PAYE and National Insurance on the payments it makes to the agency.

It all seems pretty clear to me.

If you read the points it goes from the HMRC showing a check list where most of the criteria has to be fulfilled met to be self employed, and the HMRC saying to the RHA it’s rare to find Genuinely Self employed driver, therefore unlikely but not impossible.
so various organisations advising the haulage industry have translated that into you cannot be a Self Employed driver, I would suggest that they are giving their members that advice as it makes it easier than going through various criteria.

As for the last passage, most Self Employed tradespeople will be under the direction of their customer, they will probably also have a timescale to get the job done, what they have got is the ability to refuse to take the job on and they are able to take work elsewhere.

However I do believe that some employers and agencies are trying to get drivers to go Self Employed or Ltd to avoid their responsibilities as employers and this needs cracking down on.

As for the OP’s situation, from what they’ve written there is no way they could be considered to be Self Employed.

albion:

Big Truck:
Great job Albion,
I don’t know how any of the Sole Trader/Ltd drivers can argue against that!!!

May be true if you pay all taxes/NI contributions etc but as I said before,
HMRC will have their pound of flesh and those still avoiding PAYE need to think again.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Indeed but Jingle can.

Jingle the other links make it perfectly clear that in the case of the OP, he should be PAYE. he doesn’t have a truck and he is under direct supervision.

I can’t make it clearer, I can’t make it simpler. And it backs up what Backhouse Jones the Haulage solicitors said when I went to a seminar earlier in the year.

My misunderstanding, I didn’t realise you were writing specifically about the OP… I don’t think it’s ever been in doubt that the OP’s potential ‘customer’, should in fact be his potential ‘employer’… on that specific issue, taking into account the OP’s original post, what I have said on that specific issue is… provided he pays his dues to HMRC, then he has nothing to worry about and the potential for an HMRC investigation is a concern for his potential customer / employer only.

On the wider issue - which is where I thought you were going… HMRC publish scores of pages and tests, none of which can be used to generalise as each specific case is measured individually.

In addition to all of that there’s been ongoing cross government group consultation - ongoing for years on the wider issues - without conclusion.

Jingle Jon:

albion:

Big Truck:
Great job Albion,
I don’t know how any of the Sole Trader/Ltd drivers can argue against that!!!

May be true if you pay all taxes/NI contributions etc but as I said before,
HMRC will have their pound of flesh and those still avoiding PAYE need to think again.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Indeed but Jingle can.

Jingle the other links make it perfectly clear that in the case of the OP, he should be PAYE. he doesn’t have a truck and he is under direct supervision.

I can’t make it clearer, I can’t make it simpler. And it backs up what Backhouse Jones the Haulage solicitors said when I went to a seminar earlier in the year.

My misunderstanding, I didn’t realise you were writing specifically about the OP… I don’t think it’s ever been in doubt that the OP’s potential ‘customer’, should in fact be his potential ‘employer’… on that specific issue, taking into account the OP’s original post, what I have said on that specific issue is… provided he pays his dues to HMRC, then he has nothing to worry about and the potential for an HMRC investigation is a concern for his potential customer / employer only.

On the wider issue - which is where I thought you were going… HMRC publish scores of pages and tests, none of which can be used to generalise as each specific case is measured individually.

In addition to all of that there’s been ongoing cross government group consultation - ongoing for years on the wider issues - without conclusion.

But JJ you keep ignoring the fact that if any potential truck driver phoned up HMRC today and ask their “guidance” on going SE as ST/Ltd just to drive another man’s truck they’d be told:

“Not possible under new tax regulations that have been out since 2014”!!!

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Big Truck:
But JJ you keep ignoring the fact that if any potential truck driver phoned up HMRC today and ask their “guidance” on going SE as ST/Ltd just to drive another man’s truck they’d be told:

“Not possible under new tax regulations that have been out since 2014”!!!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

On the basis of SE… No I’m not, neither am I presuming you / they would receive the advice / response you assume they will receive. Thus the reason I don’t continuously respond to that point.

Most of the advisors that answer the phones… at the very best will only be able to provide vague, even ambiguous advice, because ultimately these decisions are made further up the chain - on a case by case basis.

As for Ltd company - The rules are quite different from SE and make it clear than the director of a Ltd Co, can work on a single contract and that’s why thousands are doing it like that.

This is not to say that the rules might never change, as from time to time they do. But as it stands right now… a company director is employed by the company that they have incorporated. So in effect… they have a job.

JJ,
you need to look at post #53 on “PAYE or Ltd” thread.

HMRC are coming for Sole/Trader or Ltd drivers and reading the other posts don’t think worth the hassle!!!

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As JJ correctly says the phone advisors may not be best placed to give specific advice on this field. So anyone intending to go this route could make an appointment to have a one on one interview. Better to take notice of them (for free) than listen to any other person who will likely have some financial axe of their own to grind.
My own experiences of HMRC have been limited and much better than others, but when I got an interview with them concerning some tax issues (not relevant here) they were helpful. They set out the 'do’s and 'don’t’s for me in everyday language. They may not tell you what you want to hear but at least you’ll KNOW.

Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk

Big Truck:
JJ,
you need to look at post #53 on “PAYE or Ltd” thread.

HMRC are coming for Sole/Trader or Ltd drivers and reading the other posts don’t think worth the hassle!!!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Not sure which post #53 is…?

Franglais:
As JJ correctly says the phone advisors may not be best placed to give specific advice on this field. So anyone intending to go this route could make an appointment to have a one on one interview. Better to take notice of them (for free) than listen to any other person who will likely have some financial axe of their own to grind.
My own experiences of HMRC have been limited and much better than others, but when I got an interview with them concerning some tax issues (not relevant here) they were helpful. They set out the 'do’s and 'don’t’s for me in everyday language. They may not tell you what you want to hear but at least you’ll KNOW.

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Over the 30+ years that my wife has been a Chartered Accountant, she has helped countless people who have received tax bills from HMRC etc and equally helped as many recover money they should not have paid, and receive rebates where people never expected any.

HMRC, are NOT the best source of advice for either what is right / wrong, or even what people / companies should pay. Providing advice is not and never has been part of their remit… they are employed only to collect taxes and where necessary - enforce rules/regulations. In some unusual cases they have the power to prosecute people where fraud may be suspected.

FREE ADVICE FROM HMRC is always likely to be based on them recovering the max with the least effort. Targets to achieve etc.

If you need good quality financial advice on taxation etc… you’ll have to PAY a qualified accountant.

I think I personally have exhausted all I have to offer on this issue. But I will merely stick with the best advice I offered the OP at the top… speak to an accountant.

Out.

Jingle Jon:

Big Truck:
JJ,
you need to look at post #53 on “PAYE or Ltd” thread.

HMRC are coming for Sole/Trader or Ltd drivers and reading the other posts don’t think worth the hassle!!!

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Not sure which post #53 is…?

Sorry on Tapatalk they’re numbered. :blush:

The post 2nd from end by “Igloo Mike”.

I have a few questions about Ltd status .I keep reading about hmrc clamping down on bogus hgv ltd Co drivers .I have read a few articles and apparently , To conform you must have your own contract,It must include your hourly rate /Overtime night out money etc .It must also contain your terms of business.You obviously need a book keeper at the very minimum .And would need to keep every receipt etc .
You must also not work for the same Firm on a regular basis , including recruitment agencies .
Now i see that to be a real LTD firm you must approach Haulage firms directly ,So basically you need to be charging near or just below what agencies are charging .

So my questions .
Firstly why do ltd driver not just cut the agencies out completely ?How can you be a ltd company if the agency is telling you what they are paying you ■■?

Do you ask for a minimum daily rate ?What do agencies genuinly charge ?
Do you have to have more than £5 m public liability ?
Does anyone have a basic contract i can edit to suit ,Or a link to any kind of hgv ltd co templates for invoicing etc
I want to be able to switch around and working for myself will get me closer to being an O.d .
Cheers

Pm if you can help if you would rather not post in here .

fuser84:
ESM4210 - Particular occupations: drivers of commercial vehicles-general - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

Drivers who only provide their labour, driving vehicles owned, maintained, and insured by contractors, are likely to be employees. Drivers who also provide the means of transport, that is the vehicle, are likely to be self-employed even if they work mainly for one principal. The vehicle may be one which they own or lease (see ESM4211).

Also read this for details:
ESM0500 - Guide to determining status - overview: contents - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

The links you highlight are misleading.

From experience it’s my firm belief that drivers who only provide their labour, driving owned vehicles have been outlawed by HMRC as self employed (sole traders). However It’s perfectly acceptable for Limited Companies to supply drivers to drive owned vehicles, in some instances these drivers are employed by the Limited Company and employees for HMRC purposes.

Honestscott76:

fuser84:
ESM4210 - Particular occupations: drivers of commercial vehicles-general - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

Drivers who only provide their labour, driving vehicles owned, maintained, and insured by contractors, are likely to be employees. Drivers who also provide the means of transport, that is the vehicle, are likely to be self-employed even if they work mainly for one principal. The vehicle may be one which they own or lease (see ESM4211).

Also read this for details:
ESM0500 - Guide to determining status - overview: contents - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

The links you highlight are misleading.

From experience it’s my firm belief that drivers who only provide their labour, driving owned vehicles have been outlawed by HMRC as self employed (sole traders). However It’s perfectly acceptable for Limited Companies to supply drivers to drive owned vehicles, in some instances these drivers are employed by the Limited Company and employees for HMRC purposes.

That is how it currently works. And the links are misleading because they are out of context… there are hundreds of .gov pages on this issue… basically though it’s as simple as you have said.