Self-employed HELP!

albion:

Rjan:
From what I understand Jingle Jon, Big Truck is addressing the confusion about the employment status of drivers.

Your situation of running a genuine business which employs others is very different from that of a mere driver.

That^^^

The OP as I understand it is planning to work for one employer and has no asset himself, ie a vehicle. He is not free to turn down work anymore than an employed man and he will not have any other ‘customers’. Yes an employee.

HMRC are very clear, to be self employed as outlined by the OP, he needs a truck.

Evidence■■?

Big Truck:

Jingle Jon:

Big Truck:

Jingle Jon:
Big T,

You clearly have no understanding of how it works.

Company registration is done through Companies House… as the current rules stand there is no reason for his application being refused - unless he is struck off… given his questions… that’s very unlikely.

If he incorporates as a Ltd Company… as the company director - he is an employee of the company… he can register the company to pay PAYE… ‘to himself’. It’s all legal and no rules or guidelines to prevent this.

There is a huge difference between Ltd or Sole Trader / Self Employed.

That said, although financially he would be much better off as Ltd Co Director - there’s a lot more detail and he’s clearly not ready for it.

As for Conor, another example of nonsense. As he would be an employee of the company - the company would pay for his PPE etc, this can be deducted from profits and if he registers for VAT… he can claim that back too.

All a bit much for him to deal with right now and this can all be confirmed by the accountants he speaks with.

One thing is clear in this thread… the propensity for drivers who know sweet fa about a subject to spread rumours never diminishes.

I had my own artic tipper on road 10yrs ago so have a fair idea!!!

Your still ignoring the fact that Sole Trader or Ltd HMRC are “advocating/Advising/instructing” That either of the above cannot “chose” to go SE and drive a truck owned/operated by an employer rather than driver being employed via PAYE!!!

You still haven’t answered my previous question what is to stop a shop floor factory worker doing same thing!!!

Why instead of millions of agency workers in factories/farms/processors etc just opt Sole trader/Ltd and cut out the agency middleman■■?

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I currently have three lorries, two vans, one pickup truck and I’m married to a chartered accountant… I know you’re wrong on the Ltd company issues and off the mark re SE. All that garb about factory workers etc is nonsense… I also own several properties that I rent out… by your measure you might aswell ask me why my tenants don’t buy their own houses… pointless analogy.

My wife confirms you are wrong… you’ll just have to accept that I’d much rather trust her qualified opinions over your opinions which appear to be backed up by either what you’ve heard… or what you’ve read on some obscure article.

FWIW, HMRC publish this information about Ltd Co etc on their website.

These issues you know naff all about are what my QUALIFIED wife advises business on every day.

Run this past your “QUALIFIED” Wife,
fact:

A friend of mine is a large Dairy Farmer/Agri Contractor.
He gets very busy Agri Contracting May/Sept each year cutting silage/Combining etc.
He “took on” 5/6 local tractor drivers on SE basis but working 40/80hrs week during those months.
All kept books and submitted invoices weekly to him and did their yearly tax return via accountants.

About 3yrs ago had visit from HMRC and they instructed him that the tractor drivers couldn’t be SE under income tax regulations as they didn’t own etc the machinery and only invoiced out their driving labour.
They needed to be FT employees under PAYE during those months and going Ltd and their “company” having them as a single employee wasn’t acceptable either!!!

Ask qualified Wifey if HMRC were wrong in their “directions” and what in reality is the overall difference in the tractor drivers and a Sole trader/Ltd person who provides his PERSONAL driving services on trucks that he doesn’t own■■?

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Evidence?

I work for Agro Merchant/ Sawyers they have about 250 units and 600 trailers.

Not a SINGLE driver is Sole Trader/Ltd nor any agency drivers.
All Inc PT/Casual are PAYE as EXACTLY the same scenario as the Agri Contractor above happened@ Sawyers few years ago!!!

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Jingle Jon try taking this questionaire, fill it in honestly as if you were a self employed driver as a ltd company.

Big Truck:
I work for Agro Merchant/ Sawyers they have about 250 units and 600 trailers.

Not a SINGLE driver is Sole Trader/Ltd nor any agency drivers.
All Inc PT/Casual are PAYE as EXACTLY the same scenario as the Agri Contractor above happened@ Sawyers few years ago!!!

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You don’t seem to be able to grasp my point, which is very simple… this is an issue which the company offering the OP might want to be concerned about - but AND ONCE AGAIN!!! … provided he payed his tax and NI… he’s got nothing to worry about.

scottie0011:
Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK

Jingle Jon try taking this questionaire, fill it in honestly as if you were a self employed driver as a ltd company.

Read what I’ve written over and over…

Jingle Jon:

Big Truck:

Jingle Jon:

Big Truck:

Jingle Jon:
Big T,

You clearly have no understanding of how it works.

Company registration is done through Companies House… as the current rules stand there is no reason for his application being refused - unless he is struck off… given his questions… that’s very unlikely.

If he incorporates as a Ltd Company… as the company director - he is an employee of the company… he can register the company to pay PAYE… ‘to himself’. It’s all legal and no rules or guidelines to prevent this.

There is a huge difference between Ltd or Sole Trader / Self Employed.

That said, although financially he would be much better off as Ltd Co Director - there’s a lot more detail and he’s clearly not ready for it.

As for Conor, another example of nonsense. As he would be an employee of the company - the company would pay for his PPE etc, this can be deducted from profits and if he registers for VAT… he can claim that back too.

All a bit much for him to deal with right now and this can all be confirmed by the accountants he speaks with.

One thing is clear in this thread… the propensity for drivers who know sweet fa about a subject to spread rumours never diminishes.

I had my own artic tipper on road 10yrs ago so have a fair idea!!!

Your still ignoring the fact that Sole Trader or Ltd HMRC are “advocating/Advising/instructing” That either of the above cannot “chose” to go SE and drive a truck owned/operated by an employer rather than driver being employed via PAYE!!!

You still haven’t answered my previous question what is to stop a shop floor factory worker doing same thing!!!

Why instead of millions of agency workers in factories/farms/processors etc just opt Sole trader/Ltd and cut out the agency middleman■■?

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

I currently have three lorries, two vans, one pickup truck and I’m married to a chartered accountant… I know you’re wrong on the Ltd company issues and off the mark re SE. All that garb about factory workers etc is nonsense… I also own several properties that I rent out… by your measure you might aswell ask me why my tenants don’t buy their own houses… pointless analogy.

My wife confirms you are wrong… you’ll just have to accept that I’d much rather trust her qualified opinions over your opinions which appear to be backed up by either what you’ve heard… or what you’ve read on some obscure article.

FWIW, HMRC publish this information about Ltd Co etc on their website.

These issues you know naff all about are what my QUALIFIED wife advises business on every day.

Run this past your “QUALIFIED” Wife,
fact:

A friend of mine is a large Dairy Farmer/Agri Contractor.
He gets very busy Agri Contracting May/Sept each year cutting silage/Combining etc.
He “took on” 5/6 local tractor drivers on SE basis but working 40/80hrs week during those months.
All kept books and submitted invoices weekly to him and did their yearly tax return via accountants.

About 3yrs ago had visit from HMRC and they instructed him that the tractor drivers couldn’t be SE under income tax regulations as they didn’t own etc the machinery and only invoiced out their driving labour.
They needed to be FT employees under PAYE during those months and going Ltd and their “company” having them as a single employee wasn’t acceptable either!!!

Ask qualified Wifey if HMRC were wrong in their “directions” and what in reality is the overall difference in the tractor drivers and a Sole trader/Ltd person who provides his PERSONAL driving services on trucks that he doesn’t own■■?

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Evidence?

Evidence of what??
That it actually happened??

Do you want me to PM you the Farmer/Agri Contractors number??

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Jingle Jon:

scottie0011:
Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK

Jingle Jon try taking this questionaire, fill it in honestly as if you were a self employed driver as a ltd company.

Read what I’ve written over and over…

I really couldn’t give a monkeys what you have wrote tbh, I was self employed working for one customer through my own LTD company, I did the questionaire after I was told that what I was doing could be classed as tax evasion, I spoke to HMRC who confirmed to me that to be a LTD company in road haulage I had to actually own the vehicle I was driving.

Needless to say, I dissolved my LTD company and now I am back to being an employed driver agan.

scottie0011:

Jingle Jon:

scottie0011:
Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK

Jingle Jon try taking this questionaire, fill it in honestly as if you were a self employed driver as a ltd company.

Read what I’ve written over and over…

I really couldn’t give a monkeys what you have wrote tbh, I was self employed working for one customer through my own LTD company, I did the questionaire after I was told that what I was doing could be classed as tax evasion, I spoke to HMRC who confirmed to me that to be a LTD company in road haulage I had to actually own the vehicle I was driving.

Needless to say, I dissolved my LTD company and now I am back to being an employed driver agan.

But sure his “QUALIFIED chartered Accountant” Wife will tell you HMRC told you a load of “Tosh”!!![emoji28]

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scottie0011:

Jingle Jon:

scottie0011:
Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK

Jingle Jon try taking this questionaire, fill it in honestly as if you were a self employed driver as a ltd company.

Read what I’ve written over and over…

I really couldn’t give a monkeys what you have wrote tbh, I was self employed working for one customer through my own LTD company, I did the questionaire after I was told that what I was doing could be classed as tax evasion, I spoke to HMRC who confirmed to me that to be a LTD company in road haulage I had to actually own the vehicle I was driving.

Needless to say, I dissolved my LTD company and now I am back to being an employed driver agan.

i was told the same as you scottie 3 years ago so i didnt pursue it any further

Jingle Jon:

Big Truck:
I work for Agro Merchant/ Sawyers they have about 250 units and 600 trailers.

Not a SINGLE driver is Sole Trader/Ltd nor any agency drivers.
All Inc PT/Casual are PAYE as EXACTLY the same scenario as the Agri Contractor above happened@ Sawyers few years ago!!!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

You don’t seem to be able to grasp my point, which is very simple… this is an issue which the company offering the OP might want to be concerned about - but AND ONCE AGAIN!!! … provided he payed his tax and NI… he’s got nothing to worry about.

Well the proof will be in the pudding when the OP speaks to HMRC and reiterates to them what he said in his 1st 3posts on this thread!!![emoji6]

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scotstrucker:

scottie0011:

Jingle Jon:

scottie0011:
Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK

Jingle Jon try taking this questionaire, fill it in honestly as if you were a self employed driver as a ltd company.

Read what I’ve written over and over…

I really couldn’t give a monkeys what you have wrote tbh, I was self employed working for one customer through my own LTD company, I did the questionaire after I was told that what I was doing could be classed as tax evasion, I spoke to HMRC who confirmed to me that to be a LTD company in road haulage I had to actually own the vehicle I was driving.

Needless to say, I dissolved my LTD company and now I am back to being an employed driver agan.

i was told the same as you scottie 3 years ago so i didnt pursue it any further

And it’s what Backhouse Jones solicitors say.

scottie0011:

Jingle Jon:

scottie0011:
Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK

Jingle Jon try taking this questionaire, fill it in honestly as if you were a self employed driver as a ltd company.

Read what I’ve written over and over…

I really couldn’t give a monkeys what you have wrote tbh, I was self employed working for one customer through my own LTD company, I did the questionaire after I was told that what I was doing could be classed as tax evasion, I spoke to HMRC who confirmed to me that to be a LTD company in road haulage I had to actually own the vehicle I was driving.

Needless to say, I dissolved my LTD company and now I am back to being an employed driver agan.

The thing with HMRC is that there are a myriad of overlapping provisions that have been introduced over the years to buttress the PAYE system. In general, they allow HMRC to tax people as employees, without having to show legally that they actually are employees.

In cases where employer and employee collude to misrepresent the situation as being customer and contractor, the taxman often had little hope of proving otherwise - because all the relevant evidence about the relationship rests with the parties who are in collusion with each other to avoid tax.

So in some cases, you may end up being liable for PAYE tax regardless of whether you are an employee.

Alongside this, the apparent criteria for being an employee has seen quite some evolution since the 1970s, with all sorts of muddled and wrongheaded thinking by some senior judges whose main agenda was to undermine and deny employment protections. Most of these characters have now retired from the judiciary and the pendulum finally seems to be swinging the other way.

Sometimes in discussions like these, we need to be clear firstly whether we’re having a discussion in principle about the law, or whether we’re having a discussion about what you can reasonably expect to get away with against the taxman (i.e. to what extent you can break the law and get away with it).

And secondly, whereas an employer and employee might get away with fiddling the taxman if they both collude (like with cash in hand work), if the employee defects from a collusive arrangement (or even from an exploitative arrangement of being involuntarily deemed as self-employed) and asserts their employment rights, the employer is far more likely to end up with a bill, than if the taxman was trying to attack the pair of them from the outside in cases where employer and employee were willing to collude.

So an arrangement that is considered a rock solid tax evasion scheme because of the inability of the taxman to challenge it (with reasonable efforts proportionate to the amount of tax at stake), may fold like a piece of paper if the employee is willing to give evidence about the true nature of the relationship, such as in the employment tribunal.

Big Truck:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:
You need to read the article in Truckstop News issue 335 13th June.
BIG article on SE/Ltd drivers working for haulage companies driving THEIR trucks.
“Loophole” is closing and HMRC are coming and BIG tax bills back dated a few yrs are coming too!!!

“Public enquiry” On going and HMRC will have their pound of flesh as it’s NOT your decision if your SE/Ltd company driving another man’s truck,
your simply a PAYE employee!!!

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Tosh!

So your saying the article in Truckstop News is a load of lies then!!!

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I have a limited company and work for that company (PAYE) as director. The limited company then uses my ‘personal services’ as a HGV driver to conduct driver services for various haulage companies and employment agencies.

It’s perfectly legal and above board to sell your ‘personal Services’ and charge a fee. It’s no different to an electrician, bricklayer, plasterer etc. HGV driving is no different.

For HMRC to outlaw this practice they would have to abolish employment agencies.

Somehow I don’t think that will ever happen!

An Electrician/Plumber etc all use their OWN tools!!!

What tools does a truck driver use??

Why can’t every factory/service/construction worker in the country not opt for SE/Ltd and save themselves a fortune in tax/NI etc!!!

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Unfortunately tools cannot work themselves without the skills of the tradesmen, the same way a truck cannot work without the skills of a qualified driver. It’s the personal service of the person or tradesmen which make the job a complete service.

■■■■ all to do with his tools!

mac12:
So Honestscott76 you set your rates which would need to be at least £20 per hour to cover costs, what about most drivers who get told they will get £1 per hour more

Yes, I set my own rates but not quite £20 ph but I survive and keep food on the table. managing your money through the quiet times is key.

Rjan:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:

Honestscott76:

Big Truck:
You need to read the article in Truckstop News issue 335 13th June.
BIG article on SE/Ltd drivers working for haulage companies driving THEIR trucks.
“Loophole” is closing and HMRC are coming and BIG tax bills back dated a few yrs are coming too!!!

“Public enquiry” On going and HMRC will have their pound of flesh as it’s NOT your decision if your SE/Ltd company driving another man’s truck,
your simply a PAYE employee!!!

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Tosh!

So your saying the article in Truckstop News is a load of lies then!!!

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I have a limited company and work for that company (PAYE) as director. The limited company then uses my ‘personal services’ as a HGV driver to conduct driver services for various haulage companies and employment agencies.

It’s perfectly legal and above board to sell your ‘personal Services’ and charge a fee.

That’s one interpretation of what’s happening. The other is that you’re being employed casually by the haulage companies, and the corporate complexity is merely in place to disguise the essential relationship of employment, rather than being the trappings of a relationship that is different from employment.

It works for me!

It’s no different to an electrician, bricklayer, plasterer etc. HGV driving is no different.

The construction industry seems to be a class of its own, although most tradesmen genuinely do have trade tools, work vans and equipment.

Tools are irrelevant without the skills to control those tools!

The difference with non-owner drivers is that the essence of their role is to operate their employer’s vehicle under the instruction of the employer. Only a fool at the wheel pretends he is in charge of a small business.

Take the sat-navs and Mobile phones away and see how far the employers instructions go!

For HMRC to outlaw this practice they would have to abolish employment agencies.

Somehow I don’t think that will ever happen!

Employment agencies were around long before this confusion about self-employment. Hence their name!

Employment agencies are Limited companies, no difference in law between the two!

yourhavingalarf:
In short…

A rather dodgy sounding set up that promises lots but, in reality could deliver nothing.

Setting up as Ltd which really isn’t as easy as clicking three or four check boxes on a computer screen.

Reading responses from the greater number on here who don’t reccomend you do it.

Reading yet another debate (do a search here about Ltd company) about the legalities and technicalities of Ltd company status.

our survey said eh-uh

There’s those who can and those who can’t!

Conor:

Trucker-Millward:
I’m 29, I want to go from £11.50 an hour to £18.50 with this new job. You work it out.
Things change all the time. Can’t not better myself because somethings changing in 23 years. Mad man

You quite clearly haven’t if you think £18.50 with no SSP, no paid holiday, no employment rights, having to buy your own PPE, having to pay accountancy fees and all the costs of running a Ltd company makes you a lot better off than someone on £11.50/hr on PAYE.

£18.50 X 60 hrs per week (Average) = £1110.00 per week. How can he not be better off? [emoji849]

Honestscott76:

Conor:

Trucker-Millward:
I’m 29, I want to go from £11.50 an hour to £18.50 with this new job. You work it out.
Things change all the time. Can’t not better myself because somethings changing in 23 years. Mad man

You quite clearly haven’t if you think £18.50 with no SSP, no paid holiday, no employment rights, having to buy your own PPE, having to pay accountancy fees and all the costs of running a Ltd company makes you a lot better off than someone on £11.50/hr on PAYE.

£18.50 X 60 hrs per week (Average) = £1110.00 per week. How can he not be better off? [emoji849]

I’m rubbish at maths, hence my mantra of price for job is twice the cost of the driver and fuel, so someone feel free to pick these numbers apart.

Our friend on 18.50 earns 222.00 per day(60 hours per week), takes 28 days holiday so his gross is 51504.

Had he been working for someone he would have a 3% pension contribution from his employer, so deduct 1545.00. He will be paying into a private pension won’t be, or is 115.00 a week enough?

Those 28 days holiday that he isn’t getgi.g paid have cost him (as we now average holiday pay) 28 x 222.00= 6216.00, because he will still pay himself when he’s on holiday, which he will take, won’t he.

Accountant costs him 200.00

He pays for his own phone, call it 300.00

So he ends up with 43243.00

Someone employed on 12.00 per hour on say time and a third for 60 hours would get 41600.00.

So our 18.50 man gets around 1700 more a year…but…

He possibly has to buy his own PPE (tax deductible), if he is sick he won’t get sick pay (depends on the generosity of his employer how that goes. Being an intelligent chap he will take out a policy though costing him say 40.00 per month. There goes another. 480.00).

If he works Sunday, he won’t get double time as we pay. If he works bank holiday, he won’t get double time and a day in lieu as I pay.

If work goes quiet , he won’t even get basic hours. My lot stand for a day, at least they get the basic 8 hours.

He has no rights to work. Fair enough, there is the two year hurdle as an employee, but after that you should have a reasonable degree of certainty in employment. As I’ve said before, my longest serving driver has been with me 25 years and I’ve two others that hit 20 years this year.

We can bicker about the minutiae all day, but my point is 18.50 sounds good, but it’s actually not as good as it first appears. If our 18.50 friend works some Sundays and bank holidays, has his own sick pay insurance, he might be slightly worse off.

And all my lads have to do is turn in.

On a slightly sanctimonious level, I have 23 employees. I don’t do the pay so quite what the employers NI is, I’m a bit fuzzy on, but it’s coming up to 100k a year (you can see why our 18.50 man’s boss, er customer, is quids in versus me and can therefore undercut me). But that 100k, much as I don’t like handing it over, pays for the stuff that keeps public services going.

albion:

Honestscott76:

Conor:

Trucker-Millward:
I’m 29, I want to go from £11.50 an hour to £18.50 with this new job. You work it out.
Things change all the time. Can’t not better myself because somethings changing in 23 years. Mad man

You quite clearly haven’t if you think £18.50 with no SSP, no paid holiday, no employment rights, having to buy your own PPE, having to pay accountancy fees and all the costs of running a Ltd company makes you a lot better off than someone on £11.50/hr on PAYE.

£18.50 X 60 hrs per week (Average) = £1110.00 per week. How can he not be better off? [emoji849]

I’m rubbish at maths, hence my mantra of price for job is twice the cost of the driver and fuel, so someone feel free to pick these numbers apart.

Our friend on 18.50 earns 222.00 per day(60 hours per week), takes 28 days holiday so his gross is 51504.

Had he been working for someone he would have a 3% pension contribution from his employer, so deduct 1545.00. He will be paying into a private pension won’t be, or is 115.00 a week enough?

Those 28 days holiday that he isn’t getgi.g paid have cost him (as we now average holiday pay) 28 x 222.00= 6216.00, because he will still pay himself when he’s on holiday, which he will take, won’t he.

Accountant costs him 200.00

He pays for his own phone, call it 300.00

So he ends up with 43243.00

Someone employed on 12.00 per hour on say time and a third for 60 hours would get 41600.00.

So our 18.50 man gets around 1700 more a year…but…

He possibly has to buy his own PPE (tax deductible), if he is sick he won’t get sick pay (depends on the generosity of his employer how that goes. Being an intelligent chap he will take out a policy though costing him say 40.00 per month. There goes another. 480.00).

If he works Sunday, he won’t get double time as we pay. If he works bank holiday, he won’t get double time and a day in lieu as I pay.

If work goes quiet , he won’t even get basic hours. My lot stand for a day, at least they get the basic 8 hours.

He has no rights to work. Fair enough, there is the two year hurdle as an employee, but after that you should have a reasonable degree of certainty in employment. As I’ve said before, my longest serving driver has been with me 25 years and I’ve two others that hit 20 years this year.

We can bicker about the minutiae all day, but my point is 18.50 sounds good, but it’s actually not as good as it first appears. If our 18.50 friend works some Sundays and bank holidays, has his own sick pay insurance, he might be slightly worse off.

And all my lads have to do is turn in.

On a slightly sanctimonious level, I have 23 employees. I don’t do the pay so quite what the employers NI is, I’m a bit fuzzy on, but it’s coming up to 100k a year (you can see why our 18.50 man’s boss, er customer, is quids in versus me and can therefore undercut me). But that 100k, much as I don’t like handing it over, pays for the stuff that keeps public services going.

A good clear post from Albion.(Again).
Shows how the employee is maybe only a little better off in favorable circumstances, and probably worse off in the real world: new company with ups and downs means time stood earning nowt. Who will be asked to work bank holidays and nights, cheap self employed or an expensive employee?
Albion also clearly shows why an employer is keen to have the ease and economy of “self employed” rather than genuine employed labour.

(Plus the moral aspect of us all contributing a bit to the common good, through taxes. But I won`t mention that here).