Scania V8s, the modern urban myth?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
81

Carryfast:
t was ZB who asked the questions related to the comparisons with other types as to what was it that made the Scania so different.There didn’t seem to be anything in Saviem’s post that kept the subject all about Scania without those comparisons concerning it’s competitors.So why didn’t you raise the issue at that point when he asked the question instead of now :question: .

Comparing it with the Detroit-powered KW is about as sensible as saying a Boeing 737 would get across the Atlantic faster. People who bought/drove/repaired Scania V8s would have compared it to similar products, when deciding whether it was “Super” or not.

82

kr79:

Carryfast:

kr79:
A v8 scania is like a m3 BMW it has the ability to make you smile but you know it’s not going refuse to start when your wife is in labour in the passenger seat.

That’s the same reasoning that the North American market has often used for buying their domestic products over European or Scandinavian.I could never understand how a company that got where it was by building products on that basis then wasted loads a money on trying to keep SAAB going. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

Scania ditched Saab about 20 years ago gm soilderd o. With it until this year. As I said in my pervious post it’s horses for courses and that’s why volvos offerings on both sides of the Atlantic are very different beasts although I’d say there American offerings have benefitted from European input. Although fly sheet might not agree 100% although what does he know he can’t even drink rum and coke anymore. :smiley:

I think the arguments might look a bit different if the VXR8 could be built here (thereby getting rid of the import duty issue and Oz Pound exchange rate) for around the same price a Vectra. :bulb: Chevy Pushrod V8,rear drive,6 speed manual.The all American motor you can keep your M3 and pay more for the privilege. :bulb: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

83

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
t was ZB who asked the questions related to the comparisons with other types as to what was it that made the Scania so different.There didn’t seem to be anything in Saviem’s post that kept the subject all about Scania without those comparisons concerning it’s competitors.So why didn’t you raise the issue at that point when he asked the question instead of now :question: .

Comparing it with the Detroit-powered KW is about as sensible as saying a Boeing 737 would get across the Atlantic faster. People who bought/drove/repaired Scania V8s would have compared it to similar products, when deciding whether it was “Super” or not.

It was similar and it was comparable and it ‘would’ have been available with a customer base that wanted to look a bit further and get a better deal in regards to what we actually make here than just look across the North Sea and the Channel to import everything.That’s the reason why the country’s economy is now zb’d. :bulb:

84

Carryfast:
It was similar and it was comparable and it ‘would’ have been available with a customer base that wanted to look a bit further and get a better deal in regards to what we actually make here than just look across the North Sea and the Channel to import everything.That’s the reason why the country’s economy is now zb’d. :bulb:

This has f. all to do with the thread. Clear off.

85

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
It was similar and it was comparable and it ‘would’ have been available with a customer base that wanted to look a bit further and get a better deal in regards to what we actually make here than just look across the North Sea and the Channel to import everything.That’s the reason why the country’s economy is now zb’d. :bulb:

This has f. all to do with the thread. Clear off.

Maybe or maybe not who knows.Just one question though why is it that you thought that it was relevant to make a comparison between the ■■■■■■■ VT 903,which to my knowledge never made it into many,if any,commercial trucks sold in the European market in competition with the Scania V8,but a comparison with the Detroit 8V92,which certainly did get ordered in at least some of Bedford’s European exports,isn’t relevant in your view :question: and no one seems to have moaned about that only the reference which I’ve made to those two other US alternatives to that ■■■■■■■■ :confused:

86

Carryfast:
Maybe or maybe not who knows.Just one question though why is it that you thought that it was relevant to make a comparison between the ■■■■■■■ VT 903,which to my knowledge never made it into many,if any,commercial trucks sold in the European market in competition with the Scania V8,but a comparison with the Detroit 8V92,which certainly did get ordered in at least some of Bedford’s European exports,isn’t relevant in your view :question: and no one seems to have moaned about that only the reference which I’ve made to those two other US alternatives to that ■■■■■■■■ :confused:

Forget the VT903. I should never have let its existence flit across my conscience, in this context.

87

Carryfast:

[zb]
anorak:

kr79:
Now back to v8 scanias others have produced great high power trucks the f16 fh16 the big v8 mercs the v10 man even the big ■■■■■■■ powered fodens and original daf super space. The v8 scania just has a bit more soul. Only one close to it for soul I’d say is a v8 turbostar but the scania didn’t fall apart as quick. It’s like buying an Alfa Romeo you know it will fall apart and let you down at the most inconvenient time but you forgive it because when it works properly it’s great. A v8 scania is like a m3 BMW it has the ability to make you smile but you know it’s not going refuse to start when your wife is in labour in the passenger seat.

See this cf ^^^^? This is a pertinent answer to the question posed in the original post. IE, it is relevant to the thread, encouraging other people to contribute. Please desist from these silly US comparisons.

Casual Observer- you beat me to it, but I might as well post anyway. Fuel to the fire, so to speak.

kr79 et al- was the Fiat’s falling-apart restricted to the cab, or did the engine/chassis/suspension etc. contribute to its poor reputation?

The American comparison is relevant in the case of Scania getting a lead in the market which might not have been the same with a more US based British truck manufacturing industry in competition with it.But that would have required a more open minded British customer base which obviously never existed at the time or now.

Right let’s look at this from a different angle Ford a giant in the USA and in the 70s along with Bedford had a massive chunk of the lighter end of the uk truck market. It looked at the future of European trucking the motorway network and cross channel ferries opened up European trucking. The big euro manufacturers offered trucks for it. Ford decide they want a peice of it and offer the transcontinental that was realistically more Detroit than dagenham. Why didn’t that succeed whereas scania and Volvo did.

88

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
Maybe or maybe not who knows.Just one question though why is it that you thought that it was relevant to make a comparison between the ■■■■■■■ VT 903,which to my knowledge never made it into many,if any,commercial trucks sold in the European market in competition with the Scania V8,but a comparison with the Detroit 8V92,which certainly did get ordered in at least some of Bedford’s European exports,isn’t relevant in your view :question: and no one seems to have moaned about that only the reference which I’ve made to those two other US alternatives to that ■■■■■■■■ :confused:

Forget the VT903. I should never have let its existence flit across my conscience, in this context.

That’s not my problem it was there so I answered the question which you raised but it doesn’t really answer my question.Firstly no one complained about you putting it into the discussion but then others,including you,moaned about me putting the other two other big US suppliers’ V8’s into the discussion,one of which,as I’ve said,was fitted into a British product sold in the European market in competition with the Scania.As I remember it,having had some involvement with it’s manufacturers at the time,there were no complaints about it’s performance where it was sold.The main problem being market resistance in the domestic market.

To answer kr’s question about the Transcon the answer was probably the same as that concerning the Bedford’s acceptance in the British domestic market during the similar period.What I heard at the time,at least at Bedford,and historical records seem to confirm since,was that the domestic uk market wasn’t ready for products with those advanced levels of power outputs and cab comfort in the type of volumes which would have made it viable for the big volume US manufacturers to continue further large scale involvement in helping to develop the uk truck manufacturing industry.Having said that the Transcon has no place in this topic as,unlike the Bedford V8,it wasn’t a direct competitor to the Scania V8 at all and therefore had no connection to answering ZB’s ‘original’ question.

89

I’d say the transcontinental was more of a competitor to scania and volvo than the Bedford ford had a stron presence all over Europe and a engine that was more familiar to European buyers than a Detroit. Power up to 350 bhp scania only hit 375 bhp with the 141.

90

kr79:
I’d say the transcontinental was more of a competitor to scania and volvo than the Bedford ford had a stron presence all over Europe and a engine that was more familiar to European buyers than a Detroit. Power up to 350 bhp scania only hit 375 bhp with the 141.

It’s not relevant because it wasn’t a competitor to the Scania V8.It was a competitor to the 6 cylinder Scanias which the big power ■■■■■■■ probably blew out of the water at the time just as the TM’s 8V92 would have done in 435 (let alone 475) hp spec in the case of the V8 although around 400 was enough to do the job which is why it sold in direct competition with the V8 Scania and there weren’t any drivers,at the time,to my knowledge,who put either of those trucks at the bottom of their wish list in either case. :bulb: :smiley:

91

I wouldn’t say the cylinder configuration is to important scania merc fiat went v Volvo ■■■■■■■ etc went inline power is power wether it is a v in line rotary or horizontally opposed engine.

92

Why was the Transconinental not the success it could’ve been :question:

Two things, first the dealer network was not used to the heavy side of things and they struggled with marketing and after sales, secondly, the lorry itself wasn’t that good :open_mouth:

Realistically the Transcon’ was no better than an ERF, Seddon Atki, Foden or Layland Marathon with the same driveline, in some areas it was worse, notably the electrics :open_mouth:

Now that brings me back to the V8 Scania. I had a very early EDC engined 143 470 and it had, without doubt, the most problematic electrical system on any lorry I’ve ever known, it was early days in electronic fuelling on diesel engines granted, but they really were Guinea Pig Lorries. It was running alongside an F16 470 and the Volvo would beat it in every area, even fuel consumption and those big 16litre 6s have an almost insatiable thirst :open_mouth:

I’ve already cast my vote so to speak, my 143 was a fabulous lorry, but I have quite a few V8s under my belt, from a 1735 Mercedes, which was a very underrated lorry, ultra reliable, plenty of power and reasonable economy. I did a few trips in a Mack engined Magnum 520, that was a beast, but I never had enough experience in it to pass judgement one way or the other :confused:

Now we get to the ultimate in underrated lorries, the big FIATs. I have owned and operated two, a 480 TurboStar and a 520 EuroStar, bothe with Fuller gearboxes. I never put a spanner on the TurboStar, I don’t think I ever changed a bulb on that thing, at the time (mid 90s) I was doing a trip a week to Italy in that, this was in the last days of the driver’s hour’s regulations being treated as an inconvenience by drivers and the source of refreshment for law enforcement, so those one a week trips were hard work, lesser lorries would have self destructed. After a very expensive paint job, I never even suffered any tin worm either :sunglasses:

The EuroStar had the silly autoshift SAMT thing yanked out and replaced with a gearstick, this gave it a twin splitter and that lorry was an animal, I was only running UK then, but most days I was at 40tons and it hardly ever dropped off the limiter, my favourite thing was the way it would overtake 530 Scanias on the hills. I never had any notable problems with that, obviously the gearbox electronics were a nightmare, but that never cost me much more than a gear linkage and a gearstick. It did need a new ignition switch in the steering lock/key as the electrical supply to the air suspenion ran from there and it wouldn’t pick itself up (air on both axles) after dumping the air, luckily I was in the yard, so sorted that myself. Had an air leak on the cab suspension too, but that was about it :wink:

Funnily enough, I chopped that EuroStar in for the 143 that I regard so highly :wink: Looking back I think that the hard work the Turbostar endured would’ve been no problem for a V8 Scania, it may have been a little better on fuel and I dare say, every bit as reliable, it just wouldn’t have gone up the mountains as fast :laughing:

93

newmercman:
Why was the Transconinental not the success it could’ve been :question:

Two things, first the dealer network was not used to the heavy side of things and they struggled with marketing and after sales, secondly, the lorry itself wasn’t that good :open_mouth:

Realistically the Transcon’ was no better than an ERF, Seddon Atki, Foden or Layland Marathon with the same driveline, in some areas it was worse, notably the electrics :open_mouth:

Now that brings me back to the V8 Scania. I had a very early EDC engined 143 470 and it had, without doubt, the most problematic electrical system on any lorry I’ve ever known, it was early days in electronic fuelling on diesel engines granted, but they really were Guinea Pig Lorries. It was running alongside an F16 470 and the Volvo would beat it in every area, even fuel consumption and those big 16litre 6s have an almost insatiable thirst :open_mouth:

I’ve already cast my vote so to speak, my 143 was a fabulous lorry, but I have quite a few V8s under my belt, from a 1735 Mercedes, which was a very underrated lorry, ultra reliable, plenty of power and reasonable economy. I did a few trips in a Mack engined Magnum 520, that was a beast, but I never had enough experience in it to pass judgement one way or the other :confused:

Now we get to the ultimate in underrated lorries, the big FIATs. I have owned and operated two, a 480 TurboStar and a 520 EuroStar, bothe with Fuller gearboxes. I never put a spanner on the TurboStar, I don’t think I ever changed a bulb on that thing, at the time (mid 90s) I was doing a trip a week to Italy in that, this was in the last days of the driver’s hour’s regulations being treated as an inconvenience by drivers and the source of refreshment for law enforcement, so those one a week trips were hard work, lesser lorries would have self destructed. After a very expensive paint job, I never even suffered any tin worm either :sunglasses:

The EuroStar had the silly autoshift SAMT thing yanked out and replaced with a gearstick, this gave it a twin splitter and that lorry was an animal, I was only running UK then, but most days I was at 40tons and it hardly ever dropped off the limiter, my favourite thing was the way it would overtake 530 Scanias on the hills. I never had any notable problems with that, obviously the gearbox electronics were a nightmare, but that never cost me much more than a gear linkage and a gearstick. It did need a new ignition switch in the steering lock/key as the electrical supply to the air suspenion ran from there and it wouldn’t pick itself up (air on both axles) after dumping the air, luckily I was in the yard, so sorted that myself. Had an air leak on the cab suspension too, but that was about it :wink:

Funnily enough, I chopped that EuroStar in for the 143 that I regard so highly :wink: Looking back I think that the hard work the Turbostar endured would’ve been no problem for a V8 Scania, it may have been a little better on fuel and I dare say, every bit as reliable, it just wouldn’t have gone up the mountains as fast :laughing:

Can you explain to kr that,at least in those days,it took a V8 to beat a V8 just as the best way to defeat a tank is with a better tank.As I’ve said for me it would have been the choice between the TM with the 8V92 or the big FIAT.Unfortunately I never had the chance to try the FIAT but it’s reputation was enough to know that it was something very special but I couldn’t care less that I missed out on the Scania.Those Italians know how to make things go fast and if there’s something faster out there they’ll buy it.If they can afford it. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing:

94

I’m so glad you said that Carryfast, do you know the largest market for the Scania 141 :question:

It was Italy :open_mouth:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

95

Great stuff Nmm. For old vehicle nuts with a technical bent, your first-hand experience of the machinery is as valuable a source of information as anything else in print.

If I remember correctly, the manufaturers’ published specifications (power and torque), from the 1970s through to the '90s, placed the Scania V8 slightly ahead of its Italian counterpart, despite the Fiat’s extra 3 litres. Were the Italians conservative in their ratings, or was their engine simply more amenable to having its pump tickled?

96

scania,s gearbox ontil the 12 speed came did that in some situations there where no qite right gearing,so fiat was a flyer in some situations as was sisu e14 ■■■■■■■ and afuller :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: cheers benkku

97

newmercman:
I’m so glad you said that Carryfast, do you know the largest market for the Scania 141 :question:

It was Italy :open_mouth:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

And the 8V92 Bedford as far as I know. :wink:

The problem with the Italians is that if they’ve got the extra power they’ll use more of it more of the time which then gets reflected at the fuel pump which,at least in those days before electronic management was fitted to the old DD,was probably the Bedford’s main weak point.So in this case the Scania probably won out on being a bit slower but also a bit cheaper to run which fits the description ‘if they can afford it’ :bulb: .Which also seems to reflect your findings.

But no surprise that Bedford found some buyers in Italy for a wagon which was always fun to drive like you stole it and could at least outrun the Scania,and maybe the FIAT at that time,without even needing to bother with the 435 or 475 spec motor which maybe they could have done,while still leaving some profit in the job,if only Europe had US type fuel prices at the time. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:.

98

Speaking for experince for working for someone running 143 and 144 scanias against ■■■■■■■ fodens of similar power I’d say the ■■■■■■■ was a match for a scania v8 but I’d still go for the scania just sounded nicer and was a better all round truck.

99

Carryfast:
But no surprise that Bedford found some buyers in Italy for a wagon which was always fun to drive like you stole it and could at least outrun the Scania,and maybe the FIAT at that time,without even needing to bother with the 435 or 475 spec motor which maybe they could have done,while still leaving some profit in the job,if only Europe had US type fuel prices at the time. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :laughing:.

The 8V92TA was offered in the TM from 1980-81. It was rated at 386bhp at 1900rpm and 1190lbft at 1400rpm, to BS141Au net. The 142 was launched at the same time, with 388bhp and about the same peak torque, but the 142’s peak torque was developed at 1200-1300 rpm. How would the Bedford “outrun” the Scania?

Min. SFC for the 142 was (from memory) 202g/kWh; the Detroit’s was what- 220? No prizes for guessing which would use the most fuel- that would be the Bedford, by about 10%.

If you make statements like those above, post the torque curves to support your arguments. Otherwise, people will just assume, correctly, that you are lying.

100

I think the scanias gearing coult have made a difference.