I wonder, then, if perhaps BRS had some influence on the positioning of the exhaust at the front of 4x2 Crusaders. Ease of maintenance perhaps?
I have another question for Crusader afficiondos: why does the 6x4 version have those two big roof brackets but the 4x2 version hasn’t? 
Or did they perform some other function (air-intake perhaps)?
Ro
Re: my question above this afternoon^^^^^^^^^^: the pipes seems to fit into some kind of filter behind the cab, so air-intake may be the answer. That would still leave the question why only the 6x4s and not the 4x2s? Might this be because the 6x4s came with the Eagle 305 engine (whereas the 4x2 came with the Eagle 220 or 280) and this required a more sophisticated air system?
Which begs a further question: were any 4x2s fitted with the RR 305?
I can find plenty of examples of 6x4s withOUT the pipes (so perhaps they have Detroit engines or lower-powered Rolls 280s - who knows?); but I can find only ONE picture of a 4x2 WITH pipes. Now this might support my theory that the bigger RR 305 needed pipes. As it might be a showman’s truck, on the other hand, it could even be a cut down 6x4 - again, who knows?
Ro
Well I’ve found one fragment of the answer in this, posted by ‘Fodenbloke’ on page 10 of this thread:
“All the crusaders built for the army had twin round headlamps, ‘W’ shaped bumper with the towing jaw in the middle and the air intakes up and over the cab roof, civilian 4x2’s always had square lamps and the more familiar straight air stack up the back of the cab, the 6X4’s and Amazon versions built for heavy haulage were a combination of the 2, square lamps, straight steel bumper and the air intakes over the roof of the cab. I’m prepared to be corrected but I think army versions only had one tank, civvy 6x4’s had twin tanks, one being shorter to allow for the battery box.”
So now we know that (a) these are indeed air-intake pipes; and (b) that military 6x4s had them, but 4x2s had the air stack behind the cab. I expect if you wanted your 4x2 to have air pipes over the cab, Scammell would simply route them that way.
I used to drive a Crusader for a Teesside based outfit used as a sort of GB depot for a Dutch company.Reg.no NVN 708M colour cream and green.Only 2 other vehicles,an MAN 16.232 and a 7.5t Bedford for smaller pick ups.I was only a young fella and green as they come but it was a good job and a grounding for future continental and mid east trucking.I wish I could turn the clock back.
I think I may have solved the question of exhaust pipe positioning. It appears to me that the front-mounted pipe is standard. Where there is no front exhaust, it is positioned in a stack behind the cab.
To re sum-up from my queries above: my remaining question is -
Did Scammell supply any 4x2 Crusaders with roof-mounted air-intakes; and if so, do we know of any examples?
Cheers,
Ro
I’ve found two more examples of 4x2s with roof pipes. Although very rare, it seems that there was no real practical reason for not routeing the intake pipes across the roof on 4x2s. It’s just that Scammell chose not to do it. I wonder why.
DISPATCHER:
Here’s a different grill just to confuse the issue
The first few Crusaders, plus the 8x4 Samson, had that grille. Here’s another question for Rowena to ponder- did that moulded grille find its way onto any 4x2 chassis, or did it only appear on double drive examples?
There is some discussion of this on Page 10 of this thread.
[zb]
anorak:DISPATCHER:
Here’s a different grill just to confuse the issueThe first few Crusaders, plus the 8x4 Samson, had that grille. Here’s another question for Rowena to ponder- did that moulded grille find its way onto any 4x2 chassis, or did it only appear on double drive examples?
There is some discussion of this on Page 10 of this thread.
The answer is ‘probably not’, Anorak. That prototype grille went on 6x4s because as I understand, Crusaders were all 6x4s until BRS decided to meet with BL to come up with the 4x2 general haulage workhorse that came later (by which time the Crusader range shared the same grille).
Rowena
Maybe the question we should be asking is:
Why did the military specify roof pipes instead of the behind-the-cab air-intake on general haulage units? I’ve already noted that some 6x4s didn’t have roof ones and these are probably the civilian 6x4s of which there were plenty.
If the military specified them to keep the intakes up high and away from the dust on rough terrain and desert work (in much the same way that Middle-East Mercedes NGs did), then it would make sense that such an arrangement could be fitted to any Crusader but, like the NGs, few UK operators would bother with the extra expense and trouble (though Archie’s NG did!).
Although quite a significant number of Crusaders did the overland Middle-East run, few if any of them would have been bought and specc’d especially for the job. This may have been because anyone who really wanted a desert-going Crusader had simply to buy a 6x4 one with roof intakes and then stick a Kysor air-con on the roof for pudding - and yes, some did! Thus no 4x2s with roof air-intakes. But they must have been available and possible.
Ro
ERF-NGC-European:
Maybe the question we should be asking is:Why did the military specify roof pipes instead of the behind-the-cab air-intake on general haulage units? I’ve already noted that some 6x4s didn’t have roof ones and these are probably the civilian 6x4s of which there were plenty.
If the military specified them to keep the intakes up high and away from the dust on rough terrain and desert work (in much the same way that Middle-East Mercedes NGs did), then it would make sense that such an arrangement could be fitted to any Crusader but, like the NGs, few UK operators would bother with the extra expense and trouble (though Archie’s NG did!).
Although quite a significant number of Crusaders did the overland Middle-East run, few if any of them would have been bought and specc’d especially for the job. This may have been because anyone who really wanted a desert-going Crusader had simply to buy a 6x4 one with roof intakes and then stick a Kysor air-con on the roof for pudding - and yes, some did! Thus no 4x2s with roof air-intakes. But they must have been available and possible.
Ro
I may be able to shed some light on the positioning of the roof air cleaner Robert, the first one we purchased [on the left]had a straight intake extension up behind the cab it proved to be a dust sucker in that position so we extended it to the front of the cab where it would be in clean air and when we took delivery of the second one we had Leylands in Perth fit the same system for us.
I.m not sure if this had any bearing on the decisions made in the Uk on positioning but I do know that several modifications we made were followed up by the company in one form or another.
The general configuration of the cab was the aerodynamics of a house brick and dust ingress was bad ,A/C certainly helped to keep the dust down inside we later fitted small air flaps on the front corners just to upset the air flow along the doors and this was quite efficient i don’t have any pictures of them unfortunately but it would be interesting to know if the trucks on the middle east runs had a factory option of that sort.
Cheers Dig
DIG:
ERF-NGC-European:
Maybe the question we should be asking is:Why did the military specify roof pipes instead of the behind-the-cab air-intake on general haulage units? I’ve already noted that some 6x4s didn’t have roof ones and these are probably the civilian 6x4s of which there were plenty.
If the military specified them to keep the intakes up high and away from the dust on rough terrain and desert work (in much the same way that Middle-East Mercedes NGs did), then it would make sense that such an arrangement could be fitted to any Crusader but, like the NGs, few UK operators would bother with the extra expense and trouble (though Archie’s NG did!).
Although quite a significant number of Crusaders did the overland Middle-East run, few if any of them would have been bought and specc’d especially for the job. This may have been because anyone who really wanted a desert-going Crusader had simply to buy a 6x4 one with roof intakes and then stick a Kysor air-con on the roof for pudding - and yes, some did! Thus no 4x2s with roof air-intakes. But they must have been available and possible.
Ro
I may be able to shed some light on the positioning of the roof air cleaner Robert, the first one we purchased [on the left]had a straight intake extension up behind the cab it proved to be a dust sucker in that position so we extended it to the front of the cab where it would be in clean air and when we took delivery of the second one we had Leylands in Perth fit the same system for us.
I.m not sure if this had any bearing on the decisions made in the Uk on positioning but I do know that several modifications we made were followed up by the company in one form or another.
The general configuration of the cab was the aerodynamics of a house brick and dust ingress was bad ,A/C certainly helped to keep the dust down inside we later fitted small air flaps on the front corners just to upset the air flow along the doors and this was quite efficient i don’t have any pictures of them unfortunately but it would be interesting to know if the trucks on the middle east runs had a factory option of that sort.
Cheers Dig
Excellent! Thanks Dig. That definitely seems to support my surmise that the military-spec roof pipe system was about accessing clean air from the front atop the cab. So far so good then!
Having driven across Saudi in sand storms I know what ‘dust ingress’ really means and I’m sure you’ll be acquainted with that very fine powdered dust that infiltrates every possible imaginable place!
All the pictures I can find of Crusaders on the M/E run show either standard 4x2 sleepers (without roof pipes) or 6x4 sleepers with roof pipes. Middle-East export Crusaders tended to be 6x4s with day cabs and roof pipes. Most M/E Scammells had Kysor air-cons too.
It comes back to expense, I suspect. I would imagine that most owner-drivers of Crusaders on M/E work in the '70s / early '80s would be running 2nd-hand units so having the whole air-intake system reconfigured would be an expense not worth considering (a bit like taking a 2nd-hand Merc NG 1628 to Sparshatts and asking them to fit it with the front mounted stand-up breather pipe favoured by Middle-East operators) - ie not going to happen!
Any owner driver buying new and speccing up his own M/E truck would be buying a Scania, a Merc, a DAF or a Volvo in those days. lol
Thanks for your input old mate. Stay safe.
Ro
ERF-NGC-European:
DIG:
ERF-NGC-European:
Maybe the question we should be asking is:Why did the military specify roof pipes instead of the behind-the-cab air-intake on general haulage units? I’ve already noted that some 6x4s didn’t have roof ones and these are probably the civilian 6x4s of which there were plenty.
If the military specified them to keep the intakes up high and away from the dust on rough terrain and desert work (in much the same way that Middle-East Mercedes NGs did), then it would make sense that such an arrangement could be fitted to any Crusader but, like the NGs, few UK operators would bother with the extra expense and trouble (though Archie’s NG did!).
Although quite a significant number of Crusaders did the overland Middle-East run, few if any of them would have been bought and specc’d especially for the job. This may have been because anyone who really wanted a desert-going Crusader had simply to buy a 6x4 one with roof intakes and then stick a Kysor air-con on the roof for pudding - and yes, some did! Thus no 4x2s with roof air-intakes. But they must have been available and possible.
Ro
I may be able to shed some light on the positioning of the roof air cleaner Robert, the first one we purchased [on the left]had a straight intake extension up behind the cab it proved to be a dust sucker in that position so we extended it to the front of the cab where it would be in clean air and when we took delivery of the second one we had Leylands in Perth fit the same system for us.
I.m not sure if this had any bearing on the decisions made in the Uk on positioning but I do know that several modifications we made were followed up by the company in one form or another.
The general configuration of the cab was the aerodynamics of a house brick and dust ingress was bad ,A/C certainly helped to keep the dust down inside we later fitted small air flaps on the front corners just to upset the air flow along the doors and this was quite efficient i don’t have any pictures of them unfortunately but it would be interesting to know if the trucks on the middle east runs had a factory option of that sort.
Cheers DigExcellent! Thanks Dig. That definitely seems to support my surmise that the military-spec roof pipe system was about accessing clean air from the front atop the cab. So far so good then!
Having driven across Saudi in sand storms I know what ‘dust ingress’ really means and I’m sure you’ll be acquainted with that very fine powdered dust that infiltrates every possible imaginable place!
All the pictures I can find of Crusaders on the M/E run show either standard 4x2 sleepers (without roof pipes) or 6x4 sleepers with roof pipes. Middle-East export Crusaders tended to be 6x4s with day cabs and roof pipes. Most M/E Scammells had Kysor air-cons too.
It comes back to expense, I suspect. I would imagine that most owner-drivers of Crusaders on M/E work in the '70s / early '80s would be running 2nd-hand units so having the whole air-intake system reconfigured would be an expense not worth considering (a bit like taking a 2nd-hand Merc NG 1628 to Sparshatts and asking them to fit it with the front mounted stand-up breather pipe favoured by Middle-East operators) - ie not going to happen!
Any owner driver buying new and speccing up his own M/E truck would be buying a Scania, a Merc, a DAF or a Volvo in those days. lol
Thanks for your input old mate. Stay safe.
Ro
Thanks Robert one thing I forgot to mention was with the Crusader cab mounted to move on the mounts in and up and down motion with shock absorbers mounted at the back of the cab we couldn’t fix the air cleaner pipe on the back of the cab roof so it was fix mounted just behind the bend at the front this allowed the cab to move normally with out putting strain on the mount or moving the pipe work.
I noticed the army models it seems to be mounted quite flat so I.m wondering if they have some sort of sliding joint in the rear vertical pipe.
I had an argument with the assembly line lads at Leylands Perth about that when I went to pick the truck up, I had to let them mount it their way to prove them wrong ha ha then when they realised what the problem was they came around to our design plan.
Re cost I wouldn’t have thought it would have been to expensive certainly a lot cheaper than a dusted engine I couldn’t believe the amount of dust our GMs sucked into the filters. 
You stay safe too. Dig
DIG:
ERF-NGC-European:
DIG:
ERF-NGC-European:
Maybe the question we should be asking is:Why did the military specify roof pipes instead of the behind-the-cab air-intake on general haulage units? I’ve already noted that some 6x4s didn’t have roof ones and these are probably the civilian 6x4s of which there were plenty.
If the military specified them to keep the intakes up high and away from the dust on rough terrain and desert work (in much the same way that Middle-East Mercedes NGs did), then it would make sense that such an arrangement could be fitted to any Crusader but, like the NGs, few UK operators would bother with the extra expense and trouble (though Archie’s NG did!).
Although quite a significant number of Crusaders did the overland Middle-East run, few if any of them would have been bought and specc’d especially for the job. This may have been because anyone who really wanted a desert-going Crusader had simply to buy a 6x4 one with roof intakes and then stick a Kysor air-con on the roof for pudding - and yes, some did! Thus no 4x2s with roof air-intakes. But they must have been available and possible.
Ro
I may be able to shed some light on the positioning of the roof air cleaner Robert, the first one we purchased [on the left]had a straight intake extension up behind the cab it proved to be a dust sucker in that position so we extended it to the front of the cab where it would be in clean air and when we took delivery of the second one we had Leylands in Perth fit the same system for us.
I.m not sure if this had any bearing on the decisions made in the Uk on positioning but I do know that several modifications we made were followed up by the company in one form or another.
The general configuration of the cab was the aerodynamics of a house brick and dust ingress was bad ,A/C certainly helped to keep the dust down inside we later fitted small air flaps on the front corners just to upset the air flow along the doors and this was quite efficient i don’t have any pictures of them unfortunately but it would be interesting to know if the trucks on the middle east runs had a factory option of that sort.
Cheers DigExcellent! Thanks Dig. That definitely seems to support my surmise that the military-spec roof pipe system was about accessing clean air from the front atop the cab. So far so good then!
Having driven across Saudi in sand storms I know what ‘dust ingress’ really means and I’m sure you’ll be acquainted with that very fine powdered dust that infiltrates every possible imaginable place!
All the pictures I can find of Crusaders on the M/E run show either standard 4x2 sleepers (without roof pipes) or 6x4 sleepers with roof pipes. Middle-East export Crusaders tended to be 6x4s with day cabs and roof pipes. Most M/E Scammells had Kysor air-cons too.
It comes back to expense, I suspect. I would imagine that most owner-drivers of Crusaders on M/E work in the '70s / early '80s would be running 2nd-hand units so having the whole air-intake system reconfigured would be an expense not worth considering (a bit like taking a 2nd-hand Merc NG 1628 to Sparshatts and asking them to fit it with the front mounted stand-up breather pipe favoured by Middle-East operators) - ie not going to happen!
Any owner driver buying new and speccing up his own M/E truck would be buying a Scania, a Merc, a DAF or a Volvo in those days. lol
Thanks for your input old mate. Stay safe.
Ro
Thanks Robert one thing I forgot to mention was with the Crusader cab mounted to move on the mounts in and up and down motion with shock absorbers mounted at the back of the cab we couldn’t fix the air cleaner pipe on the back of the cab roof so it was fix mounted just behind the bend at the front this allowed the cab to move normally with out putting strain on the mount or moving the pipe work.
I noticed the army models it seems to be mounted quite flat so I.m wondering if they have some sort of sliding joint in the rear vertical pipe.
I had an argument with the assembly line lads at Leylands Perth about that when I went to pick the truck up, I had to let them mount it their way to prove them wrong ha ha then when they realised what the problem was they came around to our design plan.
Re cost I wouldn’t have thought it would have been to expensive certainly a lot cheaper than a dusted engine I couldn’t believe the amount of dust our GMs sucked into the filters.
You stay safe too. Dig
Mmm… Makes me wonder whether the 6x4 version had a different cab suspension system from the later 4x2 version - a thought to ponder on!
Thats a thought was the cab a static mount on the smaller models no movement at all,ours had the shocks fitted after the sleeper was manufactured at a local body builders so maybe not a standard issue.Perhaps some of your men that operated these trucks in europe and the M/E can recall if their cabs were fixed or had some movement.
Our trucks were delivered 1972 and 73 although both were assembled at the same time in late 1971.
Cheers Dig
[zb]
anorak:
Regarding cab suspension on Crusaders, read the paragraph that straddles the pages:
0
Interesting article. It doesn’t say much about the suspension other than to say that the cab suspension was the most comfortable of the units he rode in. He also states that the Crusader had no seat suspension. But if you remember, that generation of lorries with early seat suspension were a bit of a nightmare because the seat suspension used to ‘fight’ the cab suspension and you’d be thrown up and down like a yo-yo. Manufacturers eventually rationalised this.
> [zb]
> anorak:
> Regarding cab suspension on Crusaders, read the paragraph that straddles the pages:
> 0
Any chance you can scan the whole article - an interesting read & one I seem to remember from years back.
whisperingsmith:
> [zb]
> anorak:
> Regarding cab suspension on Crusaders, read the paragraph that straddles the pages:Any chance you can scan the whole article - an interesting read & one I seem to remember from years back.
There was a whole series of Middle East reports. This is the second one:
archive.commercialmotor.com/arti … stery-tour
The first article will be in a preceding issue, which I could not find. 
