Is there such a thing as a satnav that is so up-to-date with it’s live feed info, that it WON’T put you down a short cut street that was actually closed last night for a burst water main? 
Few years ago we had Mr greased back hair pointy shoes start in our office, he convinced the boss to try out this new fangled computer program, that works out the fastest and most economical route to take, So off we go tried to tell us which way to go, first day I get giving a route, looked at it spoke to the boss explained that that way takes 45mins longer than the route we’ve always taken, he then looks at some of the routes,that this program is suggesting, guess what old pointy shoes went looking for another job, boss said you lot know the quickest and easiest routes so just carry on.
When loaded, I have to follow the route on movement order. Am on weekly basic pay plus bonus for each load so mostly fastest route when empty but will often go scenic route if not much time difference, especially if have been on motorway all week (how you guys running rdc to rdc don’t die of boredom is beyond me) Our lot don’t bother with fuel bonus or any of that malarkey so foot down and go
I have to use wide load authorised routes when loaded, but try to run toll free where poss when empty, Time permitting, also try to run fuel efficient, I work for a small company and every little helps, and if I can save my boss a few euro’s and he stays in business, I stay employed.
Last place I worked for I did a collection in Preston area.
Rang office for next job said got a couple of collections in Newcastle. They then said don’t use the a 66 go via the a59 it’s the best route.
So got map out looked . Thought well they want me to that way I will.
Never been that way before. Was a nice drive lot of stop start through little villages . Up that steep pass (can’t rember it’s name though)
Would of been quicker and easier via a66 though.
Where I am now they just leave me to it . Go which way I choose.
RobBain:
Hi - I’m Rob from the University of Leeds. I have a quick question for truck drivers (I’m posting separately to the owner’s forum). I have the moderator’s permission to ask my research question. It’s about how you make route choices.Given the option, do you care more about saving time or saving money (eg. operating costs)? You may say it’s 100% about saving time, or 75% time and 25% costs. Please tell me which is more important to you (and why).
If your answer is, ‘it depends’ - please tell me what it depends on. All answers treated anonymously and in strictest confidence.
If you want to reply to me off-list, my email is: R.S.Bain@leeds.ac.uk.
Many thanks,
1-Why are you asking?
2-Are you doing research on behalf of a third party, either governmental or corporate?
3-Are you looking to prove or debunk some theory/project?
4-Are you receiving funding for this research?
(question for mods: Does the note to media at the bottom of this page also apply to academia?)
Carryfast:
Juddian:
Most economic route is usually motorway or dual carriageway even if its a good bit longer in mileage, but all choices are subject to change at a moments notice as and when delays crop up.The problem with motorways being what happens when the inevitable ‘incident’ ,or congestion caused by ‘road works’,happens at some point ahead on your route.Rarely leaving no possible ‘moments notice’ between it happening and getting the required information if any information at all.In which case motorways provide the worst possible combination of no way to exit the motorway when caught between junctions.Or when you do reach an exit it’s jammed by the inevitable roundabout and/or traffic signals at the end of the exit slip road.Together with everyone else also trying to use the,as a result, hopelessly over loaded chosen escape route.With the lose lose situation that at best the motorway limit is only 6 mph quicker than single carriageway A roads or even sometimes less especially for cars in the case of ‘smart motorway limits’ v 60 mph.On that note I made a journey from Surrey up to Preston a while ago and as usual avoided the M25 and just used the M40 from Wycombe and then the A roads from Kidderminster to Liverpool-Preston rather than use the M6 and saw plenty of trucks doing similar.
Seldom do i get caught in motorway jams, with both sat nav and google maps traffic systems operating it’s not often i don’t get an early warning, even on A roads a closure often leads to lorries being unable to turn around.
If i do need to divert i think laterally, never use satnav for directions so never hear it’s alternative route ideas which everyone else will be following to the letter…often because the satnav devotees haven’t a bloody clue where they are anyway, by choosing slightly more unusual diversions you avoid the satnavers.
Your route would probably return 7.5 to 8mpg round trip at 43tons on my beasty, whereas locked in top gear on the motorway i’ll be seeing over 10 and heading towards 11 over that distance, and it will be faster easier journey even at 52mph cruise.
As you know yourself its hills and building up speed after having to come to halts or slowing considerably that uses the fuel, in top gear at sensible speeds making use of terrain to overrun as much as possible the fuel figures increase substantially, so long as the engine is big enough to be on top of the job.
biggriffin:
Few years ago we had Mr greased back hair pointy shoes start in our office, he convinced the boss to try out this new fangled computer program, that works out the fastest and most economical route to take, So off we go tried to tell us which way to go, first day I get giving a route, looked at it spoke to the boss explained that that way takes 45mins longer than the route we’ve always taken, he then looks at some of the routes,that this program is suggesting, guess what old pointy shoes went looking for another job, boss said you lot know the quickest and easiest routes so just carry on.
Cool story bro…
Conor:
biggriffin:
Few years ago we had Mr greased back hair pointy shoes start in our office, he convinced the boss to try out this new fangled computer program, that works out the fastest and most economical route to take, So off we go tried to tell us which way to go, first day I get giving a route, looked at it spoke to the boss explained that that way takes 45mins longer than the route we’ve always taken, he then looks at some of the routes,that this program is suggesting, guess what old pointy shoes went looking for another job, boss said you lot know the quickest and easiest routes so just carry on.Cool story bro…
…Or maybe even a relavent contribution to the thread topic, illustrating why these modern new wave Transport Management types (and their wonderful methods ) are not necessarily the be all and end all of the job after all eh Conor?
This subject, like many others in this job depends on the same thing, how the management treats the driver. 
…it aint brainy stuff to do with rockets.
Is the driver looked upon as a valuable asset and contribution to the company? …ie, a ‘‘Team Company’’
Or…
Flip side…Somewhere between a necessary evil to be tolerated, and ‘‘The enemy.’’ 
…ie, a ‘‘Them and us Company’’ .
The likes of Juddian who has laid out his professional approach to his job, and fair play to him, signifies (imo) that he works for the former, so he reciprocates by giving 100% +, and takes into consideration things like costs and profits for his firm, even though as a driver it is not compulsory to be part of his remit, but he rightly sees it that way.
On the other hand my somewhat flippant contribution (about my only concern being where I park up 
) illustrates my personal attitude towards the type of company I work for, down to their cynical attitude towards their drivers. (From Head depot level filtered downwards to our depots)
So in my case, (rightly or wrongly) I look after no1 as a priority as ‘‘they’’ do.
If there’s a hold up I’ll sit it out, I get hourly paid.
Route? Whichever suits me on the day, depending what mood I’m in, whether I want to get drops off faster, or as I said where I plan to park up for a decent night out.
They know I know what I’m doing so I aint questioned or hassled, but left alone, because I get the job done (multi drop tramping)…
So basically I do the job that I’m paid to do, the cost saving methods, and/or specific routes, are down to ‘‘them’’ to pass down to me if they feel the need,.in which case I would implement them.
Some would say it’s in my own interests to maximise their profits as it keeps them in business, but I’m treated as a ‘‘mere truck driver’’ so I act up to it, so rightly or wrongly if I’m being honest here…I don’t give a ■■■■. 
…that’s the way ‘‘they’’ get you.
Another job move? Nah job’s fine, it’s the co. management, Better devil you know and all that, so just ride the punches and win. 
On the other hand, in a couple of previous firms past I’ve worked at (both sadly gone) where their drivers were treated with respect, I was the model professional employee, going that extra mile and above and beyond my job description.
So as I said at the start it all depends on the same thing,.that is…
‘‘They only reap what they sow’’ adage .
Unfortunately for BOTH ‘‘Us and them’’ these modern management teams are either too stupid or so far up their own arses (or both ) to see this.
If they all did the costs would be cut and the profits maximised.
Robroy, whilst i agree completely with your above post, sadly there are many drivers now (yes we know there always have been, but before almost all of the sods could actually control a lorry which sadly seems to be beyond a good number now) who don’t appreciate the difference between the two types of company or attitudes towards the staff, and don’t do their bit to keep the better companies viable.
Being treated with respect by the company, and trusted absolutely to do your job without some oik having to watch the tracker or telematics constantly, helps to give that all important job satisfaction.
This is especially disappointing if you have one of those rare dead mans shoes jobs, and yes i include proper older contract supermarket own account here, they need to be looked after as much as a driver can, because once the job gets handed over to the big logistics mobs it’s game over, because they are managed to a great extent by the very people BigGriffin described so well.
Hi WTM - entirely reasonable questions. Answers below:
1-Why are you asking?
Understanding how people make decisions (eg. how, where and when to travel) is key for transport modelling and forecasting - two of my main research interest areas.
2-Are you doing research on behalf of a third party, either governmental or corporate?
No. I’m doing this entirely by and for myself. This is just a small part of a broader research effort.
3-Are you looking to prove or debunk some theory/project?
Not really - but it might end-up that way. At present, many people think that route-choice is straightforward and simple to understand. Some of the answers given above clearly suggest otherwise.
4-Are you receiving funding for this research?
No.
(question for mods: Does the note to media at the bottom of this page also apply to academia?)
[/quote]
Juddian:
Robroy, whilst i agree completely with your above post, sadly there are many drivers now (yes we know there always have been, but before almost all of the sods could actually control a lorry which sadly seems to be beyond a good number now) who don’t appreciate the difference between the two types of company or attitudes towards the staff, and don’t do their bit to keep the better companies viable.
Being treated with respect by the company, and trusted absolutely to do your job without some oik having to watch the tracker or telematics constantly, helps to give that all important job satisfaction.
The being trusted to do your job bit is true yeh, but it’s all the other utter dog ■■■■ running alongside it that goes with it that ■■■■■■ me off.
Why not look after the drivers who know the score and are capaple of do ing the job efficientlly.
Our lot have a ‘‘Driver agitation’’ policy, with ■■■■ memos here there and everywhere, telling us obvious stuff like not to run overweight, drive without cards, go over your time, with an attatched bit to sign …with the usual sting in the tail threat at the end of it, which ■■■■■■ off the likes of me and other professionally minded drivers who know the score at the job.
It’s designed to target the rivets among us who’ll never be proper drivers as long as they possess that proverbial rear orifice, but I and the likes of me have to suffer the humiliation of being treated like a naughty schoolboy because of them, instead of these managers using a more preferred skill of devising a two tuer system of drivers, with the upper category having to be earned by performance and professionalism.
So it will get to the stage where the only ones left are the said rivets, the obligatory yes men, and the knob heads.
To get back to the thread subject…is this modern management style (to use your term, one size fits all) going to encourage drivers to help their firms maximise earnings and save their firms money or not?
I somehow reckon not, because all the proper drivers have been sickened,.and half of the sorry arsed crew left aint fit to be out on their own without their Mams.
Ah yes old mate the memos
Unfortunately they dare not differentiate between the drivers and the wheel attendants on paper or even by whisper, those who couldn’t attain ‘trusted driver’ status if their very lives depended on it would almost certainly pull any one of half a dozen 'ist cards, this sadly is what the country as whole has been reduced to…leading to another one of my sayings, the lowest common denominator as the assumed written standard 
.
Yes it annoys me as much as the next driver having to sign the same memos being issued entirely due to the antics of the plant pots, but i’ve come to accept its nothing personal, in some cases it’s simply the motions they have to go through in order to be able to get rid of said PPs when they next repeat the same catastrophe.
Though it’s a good excuse to take the ■■■■ generally whilst signing this ■■■■■■■■, which to be fair is often done to the complete embarrassment and apology of the person having to get you to sign, because they, like you, know exactly why and who was responsible for this particular memo being issued.
Sadly we are in a post truth country now, you can no longer state the bleeding obvious, and to be able to shift people on who simply aint going to make the grade is no longer a simple operation.
RobBain:
3-Are you looking to prove or debunk some theory/project?
Not really - but it might end-up that way. At present, many people think that route-choice is straightforward and simple to understand. Some of the answers given above clearly suggest otherwise.
It cannot be that hard to understand, given how many drivers are involved in route planning without any particular training. It is probably not straightforward to articulate in full precisely because it is untrained and left to each driver to acquire over time through reflection and experience.
An aspect I didn’t really previously mention is how much past experience and trial-and-error, both individual and collective, plays a part.
On the first journey between two unfamiliar places, most experienced drivers try to choose a route that is not overly complex and errs on the side of caution in terms of using major roads. If any experience of the roads or areas is available, this will be drawn into the judgment, and familiar roads obviously rank highly regardless of what they look like on the map.
The margin of error is higher over longer journeys than shorter ones - as a heuristic, a 10 mile detour to follow a major road all the way is more reasonable on a 200 mile journey, than to a destination that is only a couple of miles away as the crow flies. If you tried every possible shortcut on a long journey to and through unfamiliar areas, you risk coming a cropper several times, and you’d be both mentally exhausted (degrading your performance and increasing accident risks) and risk accumulating a large overall delay.
Whereas on a short journey, you are more likely to be relatively local to your base and know the area to begin with anyway, the experience of any mistakes is more likely to be valuable in future (because it is within your normal locality), and the overall number of mistakes and delay incurred is likely to be lesser than if you took the same experimental approach on a long journey.
Back to the general topic of deciding a route for an unfamiliar journey between two places, you might also ask colleagues if they know the route (and if they do, then the question here would be how they discovered that route) - usually, you ask colleagues when all possible routes look potentially difficult on a map, or when the conservative route is obviously a significant detour and not as the crow flies.
If you never travel the same route again, or only once every couple of years, then it is probably not given any further thought - although sometimes you’ll take a different return journey based on your assessment of the route taken outwards.
However, if you frequently go to a place, or through the same area, most drivers will at some point look again whether there is an optimisation available, or they might even drive a road that does not appear optimal both “as a change” and in order to gain experience of that route (which even if not optimal, or no more optimal, for the journey in question, adds experience of the area, for deciding future routes through that area).
When difficulties or impassable conditions are encountered, these are often seared into memory - sometimes, you will look at a map and, although after years you can no longer visualise the route or be very sure about its problems, you will get a feeling of “there be dragons”.
Sometimes, it emerges (one way or another) from experience that certain localities are difficult to access by application of any normal heuristic to a road map, and require a “special route” to be established and memorised. The issue then is not deciding a route between origin and destination, but deciding whether the destination requires the special route to access, and then plotting a course between the origin and the special route, and then between the special route and the specific destination.
It is not uncommon with special routes that these are simply discovered through personal experience - that is, by making the mistake at least once, and then either taking what would otherwise seem like an egregious detour or calling/stopping someone for advice (which could be a member of the public who knows the local area).
These special routes are often not premises-specific, and sometimes the direct route is not utterly impassable but just overwhelmingly inappropriate, and this makes it difficult to categorise them explicitly or decide exactly which destinations (or origin-destination combinations) require the detour to be used.
In my mind, I will often either recognise the name of the area of a specific destination (for example, if it is on a particular industrial estate or adjacent to a particular town), recognise the general area on the map, or perhaps at the late stage recognise the approach roads or a particular turn that will soon lead to trouble, and one of these is what triggers closer attention and recollection of the problems on the direct route and the existence of the special route.
Juddian:
Sadly we are in a post truth country now, you can no longer state the bleeding obvious, and to be able to shift people on who simply aint going to make the grade is no longer a simple operation.
What is the bleeding obvious?
It certainly isn’t “true” that employers struggle to shift new employees on if they don’t make the grade, and generally speaking if employers struggle with a lot of recruits who don’t make the grade then it suggests either their pay and conditions aren’t sufficient to attract the quality and experience they need, or it suggests they aren’t engaged in the practices that create and promote the quality that they need.
Even where workers’ unions intervene to stop people being summarily dismissed or every mistake treated as fatal, that is only a reflection of the fact that mistakes have to be accepted from time to time under the stress and strain of daily work rather than demanding unattainable perfection, and that the employer themselves benefit in other respects from a secure and experienced workforce.
In reality what happens in firms where summary dismissal is the norm, isn’t that everyone gets sacked at the drop of a hat, but that managers target those they don’t like and cover up or smooth over for those who they do. Stresses of one kind or another often increase to the point where mistakes are being made all the time anyway, so that managers often have the power to dismiss almost anybody they want to, for any reason they want to.
What also happens usually is that, as turnover increases, all but the simplest organisational systems go to ■■■■, which managers then blame on the nature of idiot workers and use an excuse for further bad attitudes towards workers and further systems of administration and control which further increase the power of management.
SatNavs and Traffic.
SatNavs can be a good tool but are essentially reactive. As drivers experience teaches us to be predictive. Setting off I may have a choice of routes, either taking me past a major city or a longer route avoiding it. When I make my choice there may be a clear road around the city. But I may know that when I get there it’ll be busy, so opt for the apparently longer route. We predict traffic and delays.
Seeing warnings of an accident ahead and delays, should we get off the road? divert locally? or take a longer detour? Maybe an extended coffee break ([emoji5]) will allow things to clear? As Juddian says following the same instructions as all the rest will just put you in a different bottle-neck, rather than the one you’re all avoiding. Local knowledge helps. Knowing the nature and likely length of any delay is good. Sometimes doing nowt is as good as a knee-jerk reaction to a queue.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Franglais:
SatNavs and Traffic.
Knowing the nature and likely length of any delay is good. Sometimes doing nowt is as good as a knee-jerk reaction to a queue.Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Indeed, only Saturday i took my break half an hour earlier at the previous MSA, jams had all cleared up nicely by the time ready to roll.
Rjan:
It certainly isn’t “true” that employers struggle to shift new employees on if they don’t make the grade, and generally speaking if employers struggle with a lot of recruits who don’t make the grade then it suggests either their pay and conditions aren’t sufficient to attract the quality and experience they need, or it suggests they aren’t engaged in the practices that create and promote the quality that they need.Even where workers’ unions intervene to stop people being summarily dismissed or every mistake treated as fatal, that is only a reflection of the fact that mistakes have to be accepted from time to time under the stress and strain of daily work rather than demanding unattainable perfection, and that the employer themselves benefit in other respects from a secure and experienced workforce.
In reality what happens in firms where summary dismissal is the norm, isn’t that everyone gets sacked at the drop of a hat, but that managers target those they don’t like and cover up or smooth over for those who they do. Stresses of one kind or another often increase to the point where mistakes are being made all the time anyway, so that managers often have the power to dismiss almost anybody they want to, for any reason they want to.
What also happens usually is that, as turnover increases, all but the simplest organisational systems go to [zb], which managers then blame on the nature of idiot workers and use an excuse for further bad attitudes towards workers and further systems of administration and control which further increase the power of management.
^ This.
It’s a big leap from the fact that our motorway system has turned into an over regulated and often resulting traffic clogged unfit for purpose liability,also equally often resulting a disproportionate knock on effect regarding rat run non motorway’alternative routes’.To the idea that Victorian and 1930’s management/worker ethics will solve it.As shown in my example of last Thurday’s fiasco around Heathrow all because of one over turned van on the M25.In which I’d probably have been as stuck for options,given a truck not a car,as anyone else reliant on their sat nav to get them every where they go.
If your focus is time-saving, it’s worth taking into account ferry routes too.
For example, mainland Europe <> Ireland. Direct ferry vs using the UK as a land bridge. Time on the road, time on board the ferry, avoiding traffic etc.
You’ve also got Eurotunnel Folkestone - Calais (35 minute crossing) vs Dover - Calais (90 minutes crossing).
freightlink:
If your focus is time-saving, it’s worth taking into account ferry routes too.For example, mainland Europe <> Ireland. Direct ferry vs using the UK as a land bridge. Time on the road, time on board the ferry, avoiding traffic etc.
Cherbourg let alone Roscoff - Ireland won’t make much sense for any journey involving Germany/Italy.Using Hull or Harwich/Holyhead or Cairnryan is probably the best all round balance of fuel/time in that case.