Question about running out of hours?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

I have a semi-hypothetical question.

If you run out of hours is it legal if the company sends out a car with a driver to bring you back? Either the driver driving, or expecting you to drive the car yourself?

I’m saying semi-hypothetical becase it’s happened a couple of times. And frankly legal or not I would expect it. If they told me to sleep in some of the trucks they have they’d find it abandoned sharpish. I won’t even sit on some of the beds (and I’m no clean freak) - and it’s not uncommon to have dodgy batteries and curtains missing.

I’m asking to settle a debate with a know it all driver. I think by the letter of the law it can’t be legal - otherwise, what’s to stop a euro driver being ‘recovered’ for 45 hours and then simply starting a shift again. But the other driver reckons as long as you agree to it then it’s all legal. I would ask dvsa but I do not want to potentially alert them - so I’d rather ask on here. Cheers.

2

Depends if your out of driving time or duty time.

If your out of duty tike then no it’s no legal to be fetched back in any company vehicle whether driving or not.

That’s the simple explanation as to what the law says.

If you out of driving time but have even duty time left to be brought back then it is legal but a manual entry would required to account for the time off tacho.

3

So you ring in to tell the office you’re not going to make it back, load is urgent so they tell you they will recover you and the vehicle. Car turns up to get you and the truck back.

Now this is what I have been told, not DCPC bods, but by many transport personnel, . (and know-it-all drivers) :smiley: :smiley:

The car must attend with 2 drivers,one to take the truck, the other to take you back as you’ll be on rest.
If only one driver turns up and it’s a company car, you will still be working driving that vehicle back to the yard.
If he turns up in your car and you go straight home then there is no problem, you’re on your own time.

Make your own minds up.

4

Quod est necessarium est licitum.

5

pierrot 14:
So you ring in to tell the office you’re not going to make it back, load is urgent so they tell you they will recover you and the vehicle. Car turns up to get you and the truck back.

Now this is what I have been told, not DCPC bods, but by many transport personnel, . (and know-it-all drivers) :smiley: :smiley:

The car must attend with 2 drivers,one to take the truck, the other to take you back as you’ll be on rest.
If only one driver turns up and it’s a company car, you will still be working driving that vehicle back to the yard.
If he turns up in your car and you go straight home then there is no problem, you’re on your own time.

Make your own minds up.

Sorry dude, read the 1st reply, that’s right!

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6

Legally once your 13/15 hours is up, unless there are extenuating circs, your time is up.

You cannot go back to the yard in the company car sent out, whether you drive or not, if you are seen by DVSA they could (highly unlikely as you wouldn’t be daft enough to do the swap over in front of a TE) in theory nick you.

If you drove the company car back and had an accident the book would rightly be thrown at you once they discovered, and if it was a serious prang be assured they would investigate, that you were over hours and still working, probably less chance of this being the case if you were driven back, but stories would have to be concocted whereby you were hitching as it were and unpaid as it were, which could have serious implications if the truth came to light.

Legally you should stop where you are and seek shelter, ie at the hotel alongside the MSA.

In practice what you do is up to you, i’d be rather careful about admitting on a public forum that you and the company you are working for are colluding to commit offences.

My company do not have a policy of recovering vehicles/drivers in these circs, apart from it being illegal (they run to the very letter), work is planned sensibly so this sort of thing is extremely rare.

7

Juddian:
My company do not have a policy of recovering vehicles/drivers in these circs, apart from it being illegal (they run to the very letter), work is planned sensibly so this sort of thing is extremely rare.

I’m not saying the name of the company on here. And if anyone knows it (a few people have been told and more could probs work it out from posting and location) - then I’d rather they kept quiet. However, I will say that the company in question also believe they ‘run to the very letter’.

I’ll be keeping my mouth shut either way. I don’t think I’d be very popular if I were mouthing off. And ultimately it helps the drivers out. But I do find the hypocrisy of it amusing - if I go 5 mins of WTD limit they have a meltdown including forms and a meeting, but when they want you to drive back in a car they are asking you to change times on paperwork and agreeing to add the money onto another shift.

8

sammym:

Juddian:
My company do not have a policy of recovering vehicles/drivers in these circs, apart from it being illegal (they run to the very letter), work is planned sensibly so this sort of thing is extremely rare.

But I do find the hypocrisy of it amusing - if I go 5 mins of WTD limit they have a meltdown including forms and a meeting, but when they want you to drive back in a car they are asking you to change times on paperwork and agreeing to add the money onto another shift.

They’re arses mate, doing whatever suits them at the time, they’ll deny all knowledge of it if the smelly stuff ever hits the fan and point the finger at you.
Not blaming you mind, cos if you don’t play ball they’ll drop you and get some other poor sod in to do it.

9

When you run out of working time you cannot even make your own way back to base or home, well not legally anyway.

Obviously you can do whatever you want in your daily rest period, so if you choose to make your own way home then return to where you finished the shift to restart work after a daily rest period that’s your choice.

It goes without saying that what the law says and what actually happens are not always the same.

Sent from my mobile.

10

tachograph:
When you run out of working time you cannot even make your own way back to base or home, well not legally anyway.

Obviously you can do whatever you want in your daily rest period, so if you choose to make your own way home then return to where you finished the shift to restart work after a daily rest period that’s your choice.

It goes without saying that what the law says and what actually happens are not always the same.

Sent from my mobile.

So what’s the score if you abandon the truck 5 mins walk from a pub have a pint then get a taxi to your house 10 mins away then get the mrs (or a bit of stuffed you pulled in the pub) or another taxi to the truck, as I noticed in the rules it mentions the driver driving to or from the truck not at the yard, if he isn’t driving that seems ok to do, or is it.

11

In cpc they told us it’s legal if you’ve run out of duty time they can send a company car or van to you, then this is where we are splitting hairs, they CANT tell you have to bring the car back to the depot or anywhere else. You have to be free to go where you want ie home. You can go to the depot out of your choice and let’s its face your going to because that’s where your own car be. But as long as they don’t tell you to then it’s legal.

Don’t shoot the messenger if that’s not right, but that’s what he told us in cpc and he is a decent trainer and knowledgeable guy.

12

weeto:

tachograph:
When you run out of working time you cannot even make your own way back to base or home, well not legally anyway.

Obviously you can do whatever you want in your daily rest period, so if you choose to make your own way home then return to where you finished the shift to restart work after a daily rest period that’s your choice.

It goes without saying that what the law says and what actually happens are not always the same.

Sent from my mobile.

So what’s the score if you abandon the truck 5 mins walk from a pub have a pint then get a taxi to your house 10 mins away then get the mrs (or a bit of stuffed you pulled in the pub) or another taxi to the truck, as I noticed in the rules it mentions the driver driving to or from the truck not at the yard, if he isn’t driving that seems ok to do, or is it.

If you start the next shift from the same location that you left the lorry there shouldn’t be a problem because you’re disposing of your own time as you wish.

Sent from my mobile.

13

tachograph:

weeto:

tachograph:
When you run out of working time you cannot even make your own way back to base or home, well not legally anyway.

Obviously you can do whatever you want in your daily rest period, so if you choose to make your own way home then return to where you finished the shift to restart work after a daily rest period that’s your choice.

It goes without saying that what the law says and what actually happens are not always the same.

Sent from my mobile.

So what’s the score if you abandon the truck 5 mins walk from a pub have a pint then get a taxi to your house 10 mins away then get the mrs (or a bit of stuffed you pulled in the pub) or another taxi to the truck, as I noticed in the rules it mentions the driver driving to or from the truck not at the yard, if he isn’t driving that seems ok to do, or is it.

If you start the next shift from the same location that you left the lorry there shouldn’t be a problem because you’re disposing of your own time as you wish.

Sent from my mobile.

Is what we were told correct then? Ie they send you a car or van an say here you go, use it as you wish. Your free to dispose of your time in it. We are all going to use that time to go back to the depot but as long as they’ve not told you that, if it was your wish to do that with your time then it’s legal?

It’s splitting hairs but it does make sense.

14

DickyNick:
In cpc they told us it’s legal if you’ve run out of duty time they can send a company car or van to you, then this is where we are splitting hairs, they CANT tell you have to bring the car back to the depot or anywhere else. You have to be free to go where you want ie home. You can go to the depot out of your choice and let’s its face your going to because that’s where your own car be. But as long as they don’t tell you to then it’s legal.

I wouldn’t agree with that, travelling to or from the lorry cannot be counted as rest.

If you go home and back in your daily rest period that’s your choice but if you travelled back to base or home then started the next shift from base it would be illegal.

Sent from my mobile.

15

DickyNick:
In cpc they told us it’s legal if you’ve run out of duty time they can send a company car or van to you, then this is where we are splitting hairs, they CANT tell you have to bring the car back to the depot or anywhere else. You have to be free to go where you want ie home. You can go to the depot out of your choice and let’s its face your going to because that’s where your own car be. But as long as they don’t tell you to then it’s legal.

Don’t shoot the messenger if that’s not right, but that’s what he told us in cpc and he is a decent trainer and knowledgeable guy.

A few years ago this is exactly what a driver did, taking the car home for the weekend. Only, it was the bosses Bentley that spent the weekend on a rough estate! Boss wasn’t pleased, but remarkably, it came back without a scratch on it. The icing on the cake was when it was returned Monday morning with a defect sheet filled out for a warning light on the dash :laughing:

16

tachograph:

DickyNick:
In cpc they told us it’s legal if you’ve run out of duty time they can send a company car or van to you, then this is where we are splitting hairs, they CANT tell you have to bring the car back to the depot or anywhere else. You have to be free to go where you want ie home. You can go to the depot out of your choice and let’s its face your going to because that’s where your own car be. But as long as they don’t tell you to then it’s legal.

I wouldn’t agree with that, travelling to or from the lorry cannot be counted as rest.

If you go home and back in your daily rest period that’s your choice but if you travelled back to base or home then started the next shift from base it would be illegal.

Sent from my mobile.

Why’s it different from just going home from base and back to base again in the morning during your rest period?

Say I’m a day man, and I run out of working time 20 miles from the depot, they send another driver in the works van so he can take the truck, they don’t give me an instruction that I have to bring the van back that night, just say your shifts over…start again in 9 hours. So I then drive home (as I would normally as a day man) then go back to work to base in the morning. What’s the problem with that? I’ve finished work and disposed of the time as I wish surely?

17

Co I used to work for had drivers taking breaks in moving vehicles , tipping/loading off card and had double drivers flying out in the morning and driving that night .

If you drove the 100 meters from the yard to the recording studio card out it was treated like the worse thing in the world.

All companies run straight until a delay costs money .

Paper graphs anyone?

18

It is always left to the courts to interpret the law, in any case!

19

DickyNick:

tachograph:

DickyNick:
In cpc they told us it’s legal if you’ve run out of duty time they can send a company car or van to you, then this is where we are splitting hairs, they CANT tell you have to bring the car back to the depot or anywhere else. You have to be free to go where you want ie home. You can go to the depot out of your choice and let’s its face your going to because that’s where your own car be. But as long as they don’t tell you to then it’s legal.

I wouldn’t agree with that, travelling to or from the lorry cannot be counted as rest.

If you go home and back in your daily rest period that’s your choice but if you travelled back to base or home then started the next shift from base it would be illegal.

Sent from my mobile.

Why’s it different from just going home from base and back to base again in the morning during your rest period?

Say I’m a day man, and I run out of working time 20 miles from the depot, they send another driver in the works van so he can take the truck, they don’t give me an instruction that I have to bring the van back that night, just say your shifts over…start again in 9 hours. So I then drive home (as I would normally as a day man) then go back to work to base in the morning. What’s the problem with that? I’ve finished work and disposed of the time as I wish surely?

Because then you get sent out on 16, 17, 18 … Hour runs, get rescued when your 15 is up, and start 8 hours after you get out of the truck

By returning to the same place you finished, to start your next shift, then there’s no advantage, it’s been you disposing of your time as you wish, by going home, then starting at the yard the next day, then that’s traveling time and if you read the screenshot I post further, that can’t be counted as rest, but if your 15 hours of duty are up, your only option is rest

It’s a rule that’s there to protect drivers, but in doing so goes against then for a genuine run out of time want to get home scenario, the rule is needed, but I’d say it’s boarderline impossible for it to be written to protect drivers whilst allowing a genuine case of its gone ■■■■ up and I want to get home, there’s got to be a line and that’s it!

20

Wheel Nut:
It is always left to the courts to interpret the law, in any case!

Agreed, IMO so long as you don’t make it obvious wherever you have parked the lorry what’s going on (ie if a DVSA crew are sitting nearby looking out for customers), then almost certainly nothing will come of it.

If sods law applied you had a serious, serious injury or worse for someone else even if not technically your fault, accident driving the company vehicle back to base after a 15 hour day, then that’s when it would come to light and all hell break loose.
Yes you could tell the h’officer you had loan of the van as such to go ‘home’, but telling porkies has the potential of a perverting the course of justice charge, which as far as i know is automatic chokey if convicted, and you can be sure the company will want to wash their hands of it.

Just thinking aloud now, are the new digi tachographs (or the next gen?) capable of informing, when downloaded, the GPS position when driver X removed his digi card with minutes to go, and where the same driver puts his card back in?
If so and this is a regular thing, there could be damning evidence sitting there long after the events.
The recorded mileage is there anyway.

My opinion only, but far better if a reasonable distance from home to get the Mrs/mate to come and pick you up, and drop you back the next morning, no company vehicles involved and to my mind totally in the clear, you get the night out pay which more than pay for the fuel used.
I don’t get involved in 9 hour breaks anyway, and i honestly suggest others start knocking this 9 hour ■■■■■■■■ on the head too.

At one time we all did this of course, parking up when time was up but buggering off home and back in the morning (remember it was a 12.5 hour maximum working day back in those days before the EU, harmonisation dear boy, decreed working 15 hours was safer :unamused: ), back in the days when waving your log book would automatically apply the brakes on almost every proper lorry on the road (living where i did almost every morning you could guarantee picking up at least one driver from a local company on a a dodgy going back to his wagon, woe betide those who didn’t stop, reg numbers could be taken and reported back and to say colleagues would not be impressed would be an understatement), sadly it would be hard work getting about now, even if you clipped two tacho discs attached to an old log book, getting anyone to stop.