Question About 'Less than minimum daily rest taken'

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OWNER AND FLEET OPERATORS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

I am in my first year of a business admin apprenticeship and my job role is in Driver Compliance.

My firm use the tachograph analysis software TruTac which is good and does what we require.

But quite often there are ‘Less than minimum daily rest taken’ infringements, that are pretty much always accompanied by ‘daily driving limit exceeded’. The reason for most of these is the driver has finished for the day with the card in and on break/rest and then removed the card part way through (e.g. an hour into break) and then will leave the card out for less than 9 hours (e.g. 8:20). Sometimes I’ll have ones like the one in front of me right now where they have had 57 mins break with the card in, 8:54 off with card removed (labelled as gap between charts), and then they’ve put their card back in and had another 15 minutes break.

It seems rather silly but I understand when a driver is on daily rest they should not be touching the tachograph. It’s the interruptions that are the issue right? as they are not having 9 hours without interruption and removing it part way through the tacho thinks the break before was part of the duty and starts the daily rest clock when the card is removed. Likewise when the card is then inserted early it starts the clock for duty time even though they are still on break/rest.

I write on these reports telling them why they have the infringements and how to avoid them. Which, as far as I know, is to leave the card in the tacho and on break for the full 9 hours (or 11 if a regular daily rest is required) orrr remove the card at the start of daily rest and keep it out of the tacho for the full 9(11) hours.

Does that sound right? And also would DVSA or police be bothered about those if they can see they have indeed had the full amount of time off, it was just interrupted technically, by removing or inserting the card?

2

Deycallmethetachoman:
But quite often there are ‘Less than minimum daily rest taken’ infringements, that are pretty much always accompanied by ‘daily driving limit exceeded’.

Yep. If the driver hasn`t had a daily rest then the “2nd day” is still part of the “1st day” so the two drive times are all on one day.

Deycallmethetachoman:
My firm use the tachograph analysis software TruTac which is good and does what we require.

Deycallmethetachoman:
I am in my first of a business admin apprenticeship and my job role is in Driver Compliance.

If youre still in training, how much experience do you have of different tacho analysis companies to decide whether or not its a good un? Maybe it is, but how can you judge that? And if it seems to be giving what you regard as "false reports"....maybe it isnt doing what you want and expect?
Not having a pop at you, offering a different viewpoint. :smiley:

Ask your boss/trainer/supervisor ■■? what is happening.
Ask the tacho company what is happening. Ask them how their software operates.

(All this assumes of course that the drivers do have a short rest available)

3

Deycallmethetachoman:
But quite often there are ‘Less than minimum daily rest taken’ infringements, that are pretty much always accompanied by ‘daily driving limit exceeded’.

Yep. If the driver hasn`t had a daily rest then the “2nd day” is still part of the “1st day” so the two drive times are all on one day.

Deycallmethetachoman:
My firm use the tachograph analysis software TruTac which is good and does what we require.

Deycallmethetachoman:
I am in my first of a business admin apprenticeship and my job role is in Driver Compliance.

If youre still in training, how much experience do you have of different tacho analysis companies to decide whether or not its a good un? Maybe it is, but how can you judge that? And if it seems to be giving what you regard as "false reports"....maybe it isnt doing what you want and expect?
Not having a pop at you, offering a different viewpoint. :smiley:

Ask your boss/trainer/supervisor ■■? what is happening.
Ask the tacho company what is happening. Ask them how their software operates.

(All this assumes of course that the drivers do have a short rest available)

Ed to add, I think youre right that the tacho shouldnt be touched after the driver has “booked off” i.e.put on rest and entered end country, whether the card is popped out or not.

4

Are your drivers all trampers? Day drivers will naturally remove their cards at the end of their shift, trampers tend not to do so, but they can if they want to, mixing the two things seems to be where your issue is.

Why not just make it a recommendation that the trampers either remove the card when they’re parked up, or leave it in and not touch it once they’re on daily rest.

If you’re not a driver (and that seems to be the gist of things) it’d be a good idea if you could spend more time with your guys to get a handle on the job more fully.

Tru Tac does have a good reputation, the RHA system which I use is essentially identical, personally I don’t find it as user-friendly as I would have liked.

5

Franglais:

Deycallmethetachoman:
But quite often there are ‘Less than minimum daily rest taken’ infringements, that are pretty much always accompanied by ‘daily driving limit exceeded’.

Yep. If the driver hasn`t had a daily rest then the “2nd day” is still part of the “1st day” so the two drive times are all on one day.

Deycallmethetachoman:
My firm use the tachograph analysis software TruTac which is good and does what we require.

Deycallmethetachoman:
I am in my first of a business admin apprenticeship and my job role is in Driver Compliance.

If youre still in training, how much experience do you have of different tacho analysis companies to decide whether or not its a good un? Maybe it is, but how can you judge that? And if it seems to be giving what you regard as "false reports"....maybe it isnt doing what you want and expect?
Not having a pop at you, offering a different viewpoint. :smiley:

Ask your boss/trainer/supervisor ■■? what is happening.
Ask the tacho company what is happening. Ask them how their software operates.

(All this assumes of course that the drivers do have a short rest available)

Ed to add, I think youre right that the tacho shouldnt be touched after the driver has “booked off” i.e.put on rest and entered end country, whether the card is popped out or not.

Yeah, that’s right, it adds upt the duty time and driving time of both days, v annoying.

And no you are quite right, I haven’t used many and my comment is based on my user experience. I have used Opt Tac 3 at the start, but TruTac had some useful features that they didn’t (though i think they have added more features since) so we switched to them, and then there’s the one on the vehicle tracking software samsara. They are trying to incorporate their own tacho analysis software so they have like an all in one package. The tacho analysis is not up to scratch, they think working time and duty time are the same. The good thing about it though, is it is live. Where as with trutac we have to wait for drivers to download their cards at a depot, with samsara we get the data live which is pretty useful.

And I don’t know if they are false reports are they? That was part of my question I guess.

But yes there are a few issues I have with it, but nothing fundamentally wrong.

And also I do understand it, my managers are great and explain stuff to me, the tacho company not so much, they rarely respond lol.

6

Deycallmethetachoman:
I am in my first of a business admin apprenticeship and my job role is in Driver Compliance.

My firm use the tachograph analysis software TruTac which is good and does what we require.

But quite often there are ‘Less than minimum daily rest taken’ infringements, that are pretty much always accompanied by ‘daily driving limit exceeded’. The reason for most of these is the driver has finished for the day with the card in and on break/rest and then removed the card part way through (e.g. an hour into break) and then will leave the card out for less than 9 hours (e.g. 8:20). Sometimes I’ll have ones like the one in front of me right now where they have had 57 mins break with the card in, 8:54 off with card removed (labelled as gap between charts), and then they’ve put their card back in and had another 15 minutes break.

It seems rather silly but I understand when a driver is on daily rest they should not be touching the tachograph. It’s the interruptions that are the issue right? as they are not having 9 hours without interruption and removing it part way through the tacho thinks the break before was part of the duty and starts the daily rest clock when the card is removed. Likewise when the card is then inserted early it starts the clock for duty time even though they are still on break/rest.

I write on these reports telling them why they have the infringements and how to avoid them. Which, as far as I know, is to leave the card in the tacho and on break for the full 9 hours (or 11 if a regular daily rest is required) orrr remove the card at the start of daily rest and keep it out of the tacho for the full 9(11) hours.

Does that sound right? And also would DVSA or police be bothered about those if they can see they have indeed had the full amount of time off, it was just interrupted technically, by removing or inserting the card?

I found TruTac not to be as good as they think they are, and their geeks chin-able when you had to “reach out” for their help on occasions :unamused:

Who we use now are far better with great back-up & zero chin-ability, and they have the remote download as part of the package, which will give me last weeks info anytime soon today…

7

Perhaps if you are doing compliance or enforcement, you might want to change the mindset. You are not looking at a driver who can do up to Xhrs driving etc, that means they might do 3-4hrs driving a day but if needed, they could do up to the limit of driving/duty times.

Now change the mindset. Look at from the perspective that the driver MUST have x hrs daily rest / weekly rest. It is not negotiable, there is no leeway or tolerance.

Taking 8hrs 59 mins is NOT a 9hrs rest period, whereas 9hrs 1 minute definitely is. Taking a 14min, 29min or a 44min rest are not a rest, they are a waste to both the driver and the operator.

Your examples sound like drivers trying to minimise the MUST do times to suit their optional times.

Look at what the driver MUST do and then fit in the rest around it, rather than the other way around

8

A shift cannot end under break. Removing the card after more than 15 minutes of break has been taken is an infringement under EC165/2014.
If a tramper leaves there card in then they by law should do a manual entry for end country at end of shift and another at the start of next shift.
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2014/165/article/34

Quote:The driver shall enter in the digital tachograph the symbols of the countries in which the daily working period started and finished

Also: It shall not be necessary for drivers to enter the information referred to in the first subparagraph if the tachograph is automatically recording location data in accordance with Article 8.]

So if the software is set to look for EC165/2014 infringements then the drivers need to adapt to the above.

9

Wildy:
If a tramper leaves there card in then they by law should do a manual entry for end country at end of shift and another at the start of next shift.
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2014/165/article/34

Quote:The driver shall enter in the digital tachograph the symbols of the countries in which the daily working period started and finished

From that legislation
“From 2 February 2022 the driver shall also enter the symbol of the country that the driver enters after crossing a border of a Member State at the beginning of the driver’s first stop in that Member State.”

If someone is tramping just in the UK then I don’t see any requirement for the ME you mentioned.

As for a shift not ending on a break, when I was driving, like a lot of drivers, I would put my card onto break for a couple of minutes at the end of the shift, thereby almost always ending my shift on a break. There was never any comment on this following the independent tacho analysis, and I’ve never heard anyone say this in any of the TM groups I’m part of.

10

Zac_A:

Wildy:
If a tramper leaves there card in then they by law should do a manual entry for end country at end of shift and another at the start of next shift.
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2014/165/article/34

Quote:The driver shall enter in the digital tachograph the symbols of the countries in which the daily working period started and finished

From that legislation
“From 2 February 2022 the driver shall also enter the symbol of the country that the driver enters after crossing a border of a Member State at the beginning of the driver’s first stop in that Member State.”

If someone is tramping just in the UK then I don’t see any requirement for the ME you mentioned.

That doesn’t create an exemption from the first part “in which the daily working period started and finished”. And as such UK only tramping would be included. Additionally if you cross a border you should stop at the soonest and change the country setting.

Zac_A:
As for a shift not ending on a break, when I was driving, like a lot of drivers, I would put my card onto break for a couple of minutes at the end of the shift, thereby almost always ending my shift on a break. There was never any comment on this following the independent tacho analysis, and I’ve never heard anyone say this in any of the TM groups I’m part of.

The issue arises if the period of break at the end of shift is greater than 15 minutes. Ejecting a card after a few minutes is different. Whether if you stop for 9 hours exactly and eject your card after say 1 hour on break it would also bring up a daily rest infringement I don’t know.

11

Wildy:
A shift cannot end under break. Removing the card after more than 15 minutes of break has been taken is an infringement under EC165/2014.
If a tramper leaves there card in then they by law should do a manual entry for end country at end of shift and another at the start of next shift.
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2014/165/article/34

Quote:The driver shall enter in the digital tachograph the symbols of the countries in which the daily working period started and finished

Also: It shall not be necessary for drivers to enter the information referred to in the first subparagraph if the tachograph is automatically recording location data in accordance with Article 8.]

So if the software is set to look for EC165/2014 infringements then the drivers need to adapt to the above.

Why can’t a shift end on break? If I have 15 minutes break then eject the driver card, have 11 hours rest, enter the driver card and put a manual entry for the 11 hours rest, how is that an offence?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

12

coiler:

Wildy:
A shift cannot end under break. Removing the card after more than 15 minutes of break has been taken is an infringement under EC165/2014.
If a tramper leaves there card in then they by law should do a manual entry for end country at end of shift and another at the start of next shift.
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2014/165/article/34

Quote:The driver shall enter in the digital tachograph the symbols of the countries in which the daily working period started and finished

Also: It shall not be necessary for drivers to enter the information referred to in the first subparagraph if the tachograph is automatically recording location data in accordance with Article 8.]

So if the software is set to look for EC165/2014 infringements then the drivers need to adapt to the above.

Why can’t a shift end on break? If I have 15 minutes break then eject the driver card, have 11 hours rest, enter the driver card and put a manual entry for the 11 hours rest, how is that an offence?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Does 15 minutes or more of break/rest at the end of a shift count as ‘the daily working period’? The tacho software doesn’t think so under EC165/2014. The requirement to enter the end country on the work period occurs within 15minutes of the last recorded work/drive/POA. Your manual entry cant overwrite the 15minutes of break you took and so the country entry is not regarded as at the end of your ‘the daily working period’.

13

Wildy:

coiler:

Wildy:
A shift cannot end under break. Removing the card after more than 15 minutes of break has been taken is an infringement under EC165/2014.
If a tramper leaves there card in then they by law should do a manual entry for end country at end of shift and another at the start of next shift.
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2014/165/article/34

Quote:The driver shall enter in the digital tachograph the symbols of the countries in which the daily working period started and finished

Also: It shall not be necessary for drivers to enter the information referred to in the first subparagraph if the tachograph is automatically recording location data in accordance with Article 8.]

So if the software is set to look for EC165/2014 infringements then the drivers need to adapt to the above.

Why can’t a shift end on break? If I have 15 minutes break then eject the driver card, have 11 hours rest, enter the driver card and put a manual entry for the 11 hours rest, how is that an offence?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Does 15 minutes or more of break/rest at the end of a shift count as ‘the daily working period’? The tacho software doesn’t think so under EC165/2014. The requirement to enter the end country on the work period occurs within 15minutes of the last recorded work/drive/POA. Your manual entry cant overwrite the 15minutes of break you took and so the country entry is not regarded as at the end of your ‘the daily working period’.

I don’t agree. The optac3 software I use will count the start of the daily/weekly rest period as starting at the end of the last drive/work/poa period. If there is a period of break before the card is ejected this is counted as the rest period. I’ve never seen an infringement for not entering the finish country within 15 minutes of the last work/drive/poa period. Where in regs does it state this? Or is it a quirk of the software you’re using?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

14

coiler:

Wildy:

coiler:

Wildy:
A shift cannot end under break. Removing the card after more than 15 minutes of break has been taken is an infringement under EC165/2014.
If a tramper leaves there card in then they by law should do a manual entry for end country at end of shift and another at the start of next shift.
legislation.gov.uk/eur/2014/165/article/34

Quote:The driver shall enter in the digital tachograph the symbols of the countries in which the daily working period started and finished

Also: It shall not be necessary for drivers to enter the information referred to in the first subparagraph if the tachograph is automatically recording location data in accordance with Article 8.]

So if the software is set to look for EC165/2014 infringements then the drivers need to adapt to the above.

Why can’t a shift end on break? If I have 15 minutes break then eject the driver card, have 11 hours rest, enter the driver card and put a manual entry for the 11 hours rest, how is that an offence?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Does 15 minutes or more of break/rest at the end of a shift count as ‘the daily working period’? The tacho software doesn’t think so under EC165/2014. The requirement to enter the end country on the work period occurs within 15minutes of the last recorded work/drive/POA. Your manual entry cant overwrite the 15minutes of break you took and so the country entry is not regarded as at the end of your ‘the daily working period’.

I don’t agree. The optac3 software I use will count the start of the daily/weekly rest period as starting at the end of the last drive/work/poa period. If there is a period of break before the card is ejected this is counted as the rest period. I’ve never seen an infringement for not entering the finish country within 15 minutes of the last work/drive/poa period. Where in regs does it state this? Or is it a quirk of the software you’re using?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It says it in the legislation I’ve linked to. Is your Optac3 set up to look for EC165/2014?

15

I can’t see it that in EC165/2014. Optac3 looks for infringements to EC561/2006